Does anyone else love this game but dislike playing it?

[Darxyd]

I seem to tire of gaming the most when I am winning a lot. I know, seems counter-intuitive, BUT--if I am mopping the floor with players then I'm not getting challenged. Feel the same way when I get schooled (you know: the one sided fight where you have killed 2 of the oppositions troops the whole game and you are down to a warcaster and a half-dead jack. See #DiceHateMe.) The times I get the most out of the game and enjoy the most are the cliff-hanger games--one dice role could win or lose the whole match!
As for the OP, you could be suffering from "Johnny-osis"--a rare but treatable disease contracted by magic players that love to build decks but aren't as enthused about playing them. The halmark of this disease is a focus on theory, where playing the deck (or army) isn't as interesting as R&Ding the tactics, combo's and other synergies of you force (or deck) and assembling them. In laymen's terms--you already know what it is going to do and how it is going to work and what your respective chances are in any given match, dice willing, because you already spent massive man-hours building it, theorizing it, and even running chart assisted "odds" calculations against the prominent meta in the current tournament scene.
The only cure I know of to "Johnny-osis" in Magic is sealed deck--no planning; just playing and adaptation. The best equivilant I can think of in Warmachine is getting back to basics and playing games on a small scale--mangled metal. Take yourself out of the planning and theory for awhile and give control of the list to someone else--or toss out the list entirely and go boxed set.

[Cryonicleech]

I enjoy playing.

Not winning, or losing, but playing.

I'm not sure, but I always feel that sort of gratification when I get to actually use my toy soldiers and get away with it. The occasional pew pew noise helps too.

[IronComrade]

As an old man and someone from a different generation then the OP...

Wow. So you love the game, spend all this time thinking about it, peruse the forums and Battle College... but when it actually comes to playing the game, you feel like it's too much work?

The need for instant gratification by the current generation just makes me... frustrated, laughable, out of touch? Sure, we are surrounded by all kinds of things that deliver instant gratification. Click on the TV(Zombie Box), and you have 100+ channels of entertainment. Turn on the computer, and you can be fragging your friends/complete strangers from Bangladesh in CoD or BF3. Or raiding Deathwing with your Guild, or whatever else. Or turn on the Xbox/PS3/Wii and there you have it. All with minimal effort on your part. You carry a cell phone in your pocket with more computing power then NASA had to send men to the moon, has a better camera then many high end SLR cameras, and more apps/games available then many consoles. You can text message anywhere around the world with it and receive an instant reply.

"hitches up his pants and tilts back his hat"- let me tell you son, between the time when the oceans drank Atlantis, and the rise of the sons of Aryas, there was an age undreamed of- an age without home computers, no cell phones, no console games. When you only had 4 channels on the black and white television. When you had to walk into the kitchen and pick up the phone and dial a number, not push buttons. You could only walk maybe three feet because that's how long the cord was. Camera's... were rare and only the well to do had them.

We managed to get together and play games. Granted, we didn't have some of the great games you have now, yet somehow, we still got together and had FUN. And it was hard work to get everyone together to play a game. Rules disputes were solved on the spot- we couldn't pick up the phone and call Customer Service, or get out the cell phone and search online FAQ's.

All I'm saying here is that yes, I've been troubled with "why bother to go play when I can sit here and surf the interwebs or play videogames". I make myself get out, and set up a game, or head to the LGS, or whatever. And it's ALWAYS been better then sitting at home.

GET OUT AND PLAY! Or at least be sociable, even if you don't play a game. You can discuss army lists with people in person, see other points of view, communicate, and learn/gain insight into the game. WAY more then you will by reading the forums or Battle College.

This was awesome!

[Wishing]

I guess its the difference between playing competitively and just playing. Since I don't have a super-competitive meta we see jack or MoW heavy lists pretty frequently. I can see that annoyance if you want to try for national tournaments and whatnot but playing that way isn't weak enough to not be enjoyable in a friendly game.

I agree, and I think it's just an unfortunate side-effect of the metagame evolution being so complex that PP can't actually control or predict what's going to turn out to be perceived to be competitive. We may feel that because they did the field test, they should have seen from the data that MOW were too weak - but we don't have the field test data, and if that data and their internal playtest data indicated that MOW are solid as they are, then that's how they're going to be released. PP can't time travel two years into the future, gauge what the national tournament scene judge to be competitive or not, and then go back and modify their releases accordingly.

Clearly PP are interested in having the game experience match the game's conceptual image as much as possible. We can see this from the fact that warjacks had a massive boost in effectiveness from Mk1 to Mk2, since people were complaning that jacks were iconic for the setting but too weak to actually field. It's just not always easy to achieve in practice.

[Temoinlanuit]

As long as my opponent has showered and applied deodorant, I enjoy playing the game in person.

Disgusting NYC summers make this non-negotiable.

[PG_Menite Messenger]

I'm afraid i cant relate to this one, im pretty much the polar opposit, I only paint, assemble, read, theory etc with the intention of putting the things on a table and throwing down against people.

Im one of the few people of our small (but now increasing) meta that will happily sit and play game after game for 6-10 hours and enjoy every minute of it.

Ive just found a club that runs a game day on the last Sunday of every month that runs from 10am-10pm, thats 12 hours of continuous table time if i want it, but i have since started playing some board games and MTG as lots of people play those too, but if someone came in and said "Do you want to play game after game of WM/H on this table til the venue closes and your thrown out" my only responce would be "Hell Yeah".

I really do love every aspect of this game, and if i continue to find and covert players at the rate I am at the moment, I might actually be able to play as much as I'd like. I know im quite lucky, i have a few friends that play, and generally the people i play against are casual and fun to play against, if that were different, maybe i wouldnt be quite so keen.

At the end of the day, you know what you like, and you should do exactly that, its your hobby!

MM

[maxxev]

I think i'm realising that i'm actually quite a passive person, FPS LAN parties i'll shoot the hell out of people and enjoy it, same with paintballing, but on the table i'd much rather be taking part in a CO-OP game of some kind than killing my opponents figs.

I also like progressive campaigns where the actions you take have a result on the plot of the game, in that sense i've lost a lot of interest in all tabletop games. It also doesn't help that for months it was 40k or nothing at the club (last week though there were 2 games of WM/H running (me in one of them) and as stated by a couple of people above i've been having more fun playing board / card games that I thought possible.

I will still play WM/H but I have come to the realisation that the game is good but i'm more interested in the figs...

[WarlockFiretopMountain]

I heard a good suggestion if your meta has problems with its lists:

Create each others' lists.

[Sygerrik]

Not a chance. There is no way I could ever play enough games. I can play three or four in a row and still be ready to go.

[RocketSurgeon]

I guess its the difference between playing competitively and just playing. Since I don't have a super-competitive meta we see jack or MoW heavy lists pretty frequently. I can see that annoyance if you want to try for national tournaments and whatnot but playing that way isn't weak enough to not be enjoyable in a friendly game.

I wouldn't set the bar so high as national tournaments. Or even local tournaments. I'd set the bar maybe as high as people who have played someone who has played local tournaments and are now exposed to trying to build balanced lists. I think even that is too high. Once someone groks balanced list building and where the checks and balances are, some models are going to suffer. Its not about someone trying to squeeze every ounce of juice out of their army. Its not the player's fault at all. The balance is not their responsibility. Its one thing to only bring perceived pain-in-the-butt casters or units. Its another to build bases without glaring weaknesses.

It is demoralizing to see new players file in under a faction's banner all under the same misconceptions and uniformly regret purchases or the faction entirely. I refuse to blame the players who beat them. I refuse blame the new players. I refuse to blame any player. The general concensus is that there are problems with certain models. I like those models. I like the intended playstyle behind them. They brought me to the faction too, and I'd love to take part in it without deliberately choosing a disadvantage. I don't like that I've never lost to even a list with a single unit of MOW in mk2. I don't like that I can't lose to certain units or certain playstyles. I don't think throwing those games would be fair to the other player.

[Rookie]

I have about 500 bucks in miniatures between my wife and I, plus a bag, and the core books for hordes and warmachine. All of it is primed, and I want to say maybe 3 or 4 models are painted, and based.

I've played a total of 3 games. 2 vs the Mrs. and one at the local store. I think some of the mechanics are interesting and the models are gorgeous, but as a beginner it feels like BS to have all sorts of crazy rules pulled out. The not being able to measure whatever you want is also aggravating as hell, coming from an ex-mage knight player. The wife was pretty much scared off from play after getting stomped on at a league we tried joining.

The few times my models have been dug out since have been for RPGs.

[Vash1313]

Personally I'm not big fan of the ultra competitive atmosphere you can have. I have neither the time nor the inclination to try and master this game. Not that there is anything wrong with that, it's just not my bag. For me the game provides an environment for hanging out with my friends. We like the models and the setting, painting, and playing. When we do play a game, it is generally with what we have recently painted or what looks cool. Both sides want to win, but not so badly that there is cheating or rules lawyering or scrutinizing everything so closely that it sucks the fun out. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with really competitive players, we just are looking for different things out of our game time. I don't get a chance to play often, so when I do, I try and make sure it is with people that are looking for the same thing I am, that way everyone has a good time.

[Lighten]

I wouldn't set the bar so high as national tournaments. Or even local tournaments. I'd set the bar maybe as high as people who have played someone who has played local tournaments and are now exposed to trying to build balanced lists. I think even that is too high. Once someone groks balanced list building and where the checks and balances are, some models are going to suffer. Its not about someone trying to squeeze every ounce of juice out of their army. Its not the player's fault at all. The balance is not their responsibility. Its one thing to only bring perceived pain-in-the-butt casters or units. Its another to build bases without glaring weaknesses.

It is demoralizing to see new players file in under a faction's banner all under the same misconceptions and uniformly regret purchases or the faction entirely. I refuse to blame the players who beat them. I refuse blame the new players. I refuse to blame any player. The general concensus is that there are problems with certain models. I like those models. I like the intended playstyle behind them. They brought me to the faction too, and I'd love to take part in it without deliberately choosing a disadvantage. I don't like that I've never lost to even a list with a single unit of MOW in mk2. I don't like that I can't lose to certain units or certain playstyles. I don't think throwing those games would be fair to the other player.

I don't know who or what you're playing, but this just doesn't happen. For something like MoW to lose games, everyone playing would have to be at exactly the same skill level and incapable of making mistakes or unexpected plays. And there would have to be no dice.

I don't play Khador, so I can't comment on MoW use, but I've taken Cassius tier lists to national tournaments and won games (certainly not the tourney). I've put Grayle on the table for the first time at Warmachine weekend and won half my games despite no practice or list tweaking. Taken a Cryx list built around zombie pirates and won a local tourney. The concept that you can't win any games with models people consider subpar is just flat out wrong. If you're trying to win at a national tourney, by all means, take whatever you think is most efficient, but you can (and I do) happily take whatever you feel is fun to play (designing to to be reasonably coherent, of course) and win some games, even at the national level.

[Sand20go]

1) I love my LGS and do not agree that I do not enjoy playing WM/Hordes a ton.
2) My 3 biggest "complaints"?

A) The meta-game design issue of caster assassinations and
B) IMHO, way too many specialized powers and abilities.
C) The rule against premeasuring

I came out of old school historic miniature gaming and hex based board games. Victory usually goes to the player who can think in terms of grand strategy ("I am landing at Omaha but to win I really need to get my heavy armor behind Caen by turn 14 so here is how I will do that") and then be able to most rapidly adjust tactically. Knowledge of what the counters can (or can not) do isn't a steep curve.

In about 180 degree contrast, WM rewards deep pre-game research and tactical practice to understand the powers (and limitations) of the 10 other factions. It isn't a joke that most musings on the game talk about you needing to lose your first 20 games in a row. I assume that the best players out there spend a significant amount of time proxying solitaire scenarios to get a feel for what a unit/warcaster can (and cannot) do.

I think the above is a feature, not a bug. Wilson et. al. clearly LIKE the idea of min/maxing in design. Only a decade in does one get the sense that they are beginning to run out of new things for units/casters to do as they start to recycle spells or put in feats that are only slight variations on prior stuff.

Finally, I think pre-measuring ban is a stupid one. While in violation of "page 4", the legal way to do this is just check your control range over and over again. Use mental references as you do it to eyeball the pre-measurement you ACTUALLY need ("OK, the distance from that thrall to the woods is 6.5 inches so my deathjack is a bit over 13inches from his Crusader"). I used to play at another LGS where a crxy player was a master at this. He would literally take about 2/3 of his turn checking his WC's control range in a 180 degree arc multiple times during his turn. I can not tell you how many times he would then move his bloody arc nodes and be inside 1/4 of an inch for his spells. Given there is a workaround, I don't see the downside, within reason, of letting player do some premeasuring.

[lastspartacus]

I have a huge passion for this game. Playing it though usually reminds me as I get bogged down in still-conflicting or confusing rules and growing frustration with obvious imbalances that the game could be closer to perfect.

[Unifiedshoe]

I appreciate the discussion here and the suggestions. I just wanted to state that I'm not complaining about the game. I think that the game is fantastic. Its not PP's fault that I feel drained or apathetic towards playing the game. They consistently inspire me to reread books, check these forums, work on my models, an spend money. They've done all they can. The only thing I can think to add to this conversation is that the game is rarely fun while I'm playing it. It's a serious game, which is clearly intended by the rules. Note the severe penalties for failing a charge, misjudging range for shooting, etc. Also, the game can end any time you move your caster an inch too close. The game is very unforgiving, which can make it stressful.

[a spastic ninja]

Not be be an ***, but I still don't see how playing a game can be considered "stressful."

College finals are stressful.

Struggling to pay rent is stressful.

Raising a child is stressful.

Games are fun. If you feel stressed playing a game I can't help thinking you're doing something wrong.

[Wishing]

Games are fun. If you feel stressed playing a game I can't help thinking you're doing something wrong.

There are different types of games, and ways to play games. Some are just an excuse for a few laughs, with little concern as to whether the game is deep or fair. Beer and pretzel games, basically. Other games are designed to take lots of concentration and dedication to get the full appreciation of them. WM could be considered one of these. Such games, when played in a competitive spirit, are tense. They are meant to be tense.

Tension can be great and make a game truly exciting and memorable. However, for people that don't like tension, it can also be stressful. If the OP would like to play in a relaxed beer and pretzel atmosphere, but the environment in which they can play is heavy on competition and tension, then I can understand why they'd find the game stressful and not much fun to actually play.

Edit: That said, that's obviously not the fault of the game, but just an unfortunate case of a player not being able to find a gaming group whose approach matches their own.

[wargolem]

I personally love this game and everything that goes with it. I love the painting, the fluff, the models, the interaction, and the thrill of rolling boxcars just when you need it. That being said I really hope it gets bigger.

[pavel0]

I think playing the first few games can feel like a bit of a chore since you have to make sure an opponent is available, get all your crap together, and then put your stuff on the board. Even something as basic as deploying and getting your activation order correct requires a lot of thought the first couple times.

The game definitely has a (very) steep learning curve, and the best way to learn is to play and get your butt handed to you by people that know what they're doing. The game gets more fun when you get used to all this, but that only comes from getting more games in. I found that if I went into a game expecting to lose (which you probably should if you just started and are playing an experienced player) then you can enjoy the game as a game and not a competition.

My advice would be to play the most experienced players (that are friendly) more so that you don't have as many rules questions. As you play more games the minutiae of the game-play will become less taxing. If you're playing new players, stick to smaller point games.

I even show up on game nights just to watch two very experienced and competitive players duke it out. It's a good way to figure out rules, strategy, and tactics. Plus I don't have to worry about hauling anything around.

[West996]

It is a lot of 'work' to play.

I don't dislike it when I do get to play, I love it.

The challenge I am having right now is that our local gaming shop has kind of let us down.

So I'm struggling right now to get a decent table made that I can keep in my house and invite my gaming group over for some games. I'm no carpenter though and I don't want something half *** so it has been quite the hurdle.

[Sand20go]

WM is, like a lot of these "games" also a hobby. And BTW - just like your first few games, your first Table will be half ****. No worries, you will learn and wood, in the big picture, is CHEAP

[PG_Fellio]

I'm sort of a 'no-fun-allowed' kind of guy when it comes to a lot of things in life. Many of my friends say that I'm a downer, and that I should try to have more fun.

One of those friends called me once when I was playing warmachine, she was really surprised by the tone of my voice when I answered, and she said that was the happiest she had ever heard me.

That is how much fun I have playing Warmachine.

[Dragon2439]

I have about 500 bucks in miniatures between my wife and I, plus a bag, and the core books for hordes and warmachine. All of it is primed, and I want to say maybe 3 or 4 models are painted, and based.

I've played a total of 3 games. 2 vs the Mrs. and one at the local store. I think some of the mechanics are interesting and the models are gorgeous, but as a beginner it feels like BS to have all sorts of crazy rules pulled out. The not being able to measure whatever you want is also aggravating as hell, coming from an ex-mage knight player. The wife was pretty much scared off from play after getting stomped on at a league we tried joining.

The few times my models have been dug out since have been for RPGs.

I think this was a case of "too much too soon". This game can easily overwhelm you with rules, because not only do you need to know the basic game rules, you need to know all the rules of both your models AND your opponents. This game has a steep learning curve because of this. The easiest way to start would be to do 15 point mangled metal/tooth and claw games, which means only jacks and beasts allowed. Once you are comfortable with those rules, feel free to move on by adding more points or different kinds of models.

As to the op. while i do enjoy the theorycrafting, list building, tactic planning a little more then actually playing the game itself, i still find the game enjoyable.

[Rookie]

I think this was a case of "too much too soon". This game can easily overwhelm you with rules, because not only do you need to know the basic game rules, you need to know all the rules of both your models AND your opponents. This game has a steep learning curve because of this. The easiest way to start would be to do 15 point mangled metal/tooth and claw games, which means only jacks and beasts allowed. Once you are comfortable with those rules, feel free to move on by adding more points or different kinds of models.

We had intended to join a journeyman league, so we picked what we liked so we would have it as the point totals increased.

And then the first session we went to we got stomped mercilessly by non-battlebox teams. Bad times all around.

[Bad monkey]

Its taken a while but I'm enjoying the game more. First miniatures game I played & it was a huge leaning curve. Not used to putting much thought into gaming, as I was mostly playing "explode all the things!" video games for years, a strategy which does not always work in wm. Menoth probably wasn't the best beginners faction either, but I still love the stuff. Don't get many playing sessions in, so I'm still fairly slow. The only thing that really stumps me anymore is keeping the expirations of effects straight, let alone remembering all of them.

[freelancerebel]

I took me a long time to resolve my turn when I first started and I would get the vibe people got inpatient, now after about a year and a half I feel like I can do everything really quickly and games take a lot less time and are more enjoyable. Everyone has their own personal preferences but a few things make the game more enjoyable all around. Personally, knowing my army and rules well enough to play efficiently is really important as is not having an annoying player across the table.

[High Artificer]

I completely understand how the OP feels, and there is certainly nothing wrong with it. Physical sports are games that are meant to be played, and while they may not all have the talent and dedication to excel, most people would be capable of playing them. However, the majority prefer to simply watch, study the game, follow favorite players/teams, and generally enjoy the festivities from a distance.

I think wargames are a lot like this for a portion of the fanbase. Buying and painting tons of models, learning books full of rules, keeping up with meta changes, and locating an accessible and friendly group of opponents can involve some serious investment. Some wargamers are "fans" first and foremost; they collect the models they like from one or many factions, may or may not paint them, and generally spend time as the OP indicated...mostly just browsing the forums, blogs, etc. and discussing aspects of the game with other fans.

I don't know if the OP sees this as a problem or not, but I certainly don't.

Myself, I'm somewhere in between. I'm in the hobby for the mini painting above all, but I love playing and try to get in games and attend tournaments and cons as a busy life allows. I also enjoy the forums, blogs, and podcasts because it lets me get in some hobby time that doesn't involve the painting table or gaming table. It's also a bit of a necessity if you want to keep up with the meta and don't have access to a particularly huge local playerbase.

Ultimately, I love wargaming because I have a blast spending weeks/months painting and studying new forces only to bring the adventure to a grand finale by finally getting to field them in battle.

[Lankycheese]

I actually used to be like the OP when I played 40K and WH Fantasy. I loved planning and collecting my armies but whenever I went to play a game it got really bogged down and I'd get bored.

When I played my first battlebox game of Warmachine though I was enthralled. The rules reminded me of playing Neverwinter Nights on the PC a few years back. I love that there are loads of spells and how a lot of them are support spells that buff your stats thus increasing your odds.

I find every rule and ability really interesting to read and even more fun to see played on out on the table. You don't even need to read a models fluff to see its character come alive on the table top.

When I played GW games I used to just see the models on the table top, but with Warmachine the rules make the models come alive and I can actually see the battle being played out.

So I understand where you are coming from OP, but it is definitely not the case with Warmachine for me.

[Tolwyn]

I like playing Warmachine in a non tournament environment.
Big problem is that the german support only supports tournament play, so I play WM lesser thane I want to since all I could is playing against tournament styled armies.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I definitely understand the thought. I don't mind as much in person, as I am chatting with people but I do get the feeling very strong whenever I play Vassal. I love Vassal and I love the fact that it lets me get extra games in, but I hate setting it up even more than in person! I am so glad there are sweet maps to play on because otherwise it would be impossible!