Ask Neuty about legion! questions thread.

[Neutralyze]

Thanks so much for this thread. I have learned a lot already.

I love wargaming, and have played about 4 hordes games. I feel the play experience from this game fits what I am looking for very well, and I have decided to make the switch to this system. Unfortunately I am one of the types of people that feels I need to have all options available to me to start building lists; however, that costs too much money in the short term, and honestly it feels like too many options to start with. So, my question:

In general, how would you recommend a new Warmachine/Hordes player (me) approach collecting a legion army and acquiring the knowledge/skills to eventually get into regular tournament play? (I am anticipating both will take me quite a while, but that's ok. I am just looking for a framework to help me along the process)

well i would pick up atleast 4 different warlocks to try out based on what you like from our group of them. playing games and practice is key in order to get better, remember rules etc to play in tournaments.

as for stuff to pick up i woudl start with

warlocks
typhon
scytheanx2
angelx2
carny
ravagorex2
seraph
Raek
shredder
harrier
stinger
raptors full
striders full with UA
spawning vessel
legionaires full
BFS
SPell martyr x 3
Death stalker x 2
Anyssa
forsaken x 2
sheperd x 2

now based on your warlocks this group would change. bethayne loves hex hunters so you would want them.

you can buy all the above and be good to go!

[Neutralyze]

Thank you for answering the questions.

Since you haven´t started screaming for the sheer amount yet I´ll throw some more at you .

What casters and units/beast/solos do you prefer against circle and why?
(I myself find the ravegore invaluble since circle don´t have that high arm, apart from some the megalith etc, and also due to being able to take care of the stones and outhtreathen some of thier shenaigans).

When facing circle, do you try to beat them at their own game speed, alpha etc (something that legion is also good at) or do you go for a different approach alltogehter?

If possible please specify what locks/approaches you do against thier different locks approaches and how you reason when picking a list against typhical circle list you see in competitive enviournments. (like I said I feel I really need to get better at matching my lists against my opponents and much appriciate your input)

AGainst circle i mainly use Pthags as his attrition based game can win it for you. tough heavies with high armor and a piece tradable warbeast cannot be taken lightly. circle has major issues dealing with him. with pthags i still have spd but max is 11" threat on scythean. in certain lists circle will be faster than me.

as for matchups, its hard to say what to use vs all of them. i like pthags against a majority and Saeryn vs warlocks like Morvhanna, Kromac.

[Overread]

Neutralyze - I like your starting list for the building up of a core force - though with the new plastic warbeast pack on the market and the option to use magnets with it how many heavy warbeasts would you say would be best for someone starting out. At the moment you list 5 in that starting list, though I would assume that 2 or 3 would be the more common number that you'd used game to game on average.

Also, what with her abilities, would you foresee the succubus joining the recommended starting core for an army?

[Roktop]

Neutralyze - I like your starting list for the building up of a core force - though with the new plastic warbeast pack on the market and the option to use magnets with it how many heavy warbeasts would you say would be best for someone starting out. At the moment you list 5 in that starting list, though I would assume that 2 or 3 would be the more common number that you'd used game to game on average.

Also, what with her abilities, would you foresee the succubus joining the recommended starting core for an army?

Having done the magnets, with three beasts with all the best options - I would recommend having 4 beasts available with options built for different combinations at least 2 Ravagores and 2 Scytheans and one Carnivean.

I need to pick up one more heavy in the near future to accomplish this myself.

[simplygnome]

Neut,

With a lot of anti infantry-machine in the colossals (specifically the Stormwall and the Menoth Colossal), do you think Kallus's place will change in the tournament scene? Would you take an infantry Kallus list against some of the more anti infantry colossls, and if so what tricks would you use to deliver your targets?

[Neutralyze]

I am still trying to make a kallu list I love to play at 50. I have three heavies but think I need to cut it down to 2 in order to get proper I infantry in there to saturate Zones and to be a threat. I would never take a matchup against something that would counter it. I did play a 3 pt kallu vs 3emo and stormwall wih two storm striders. Needless to say, it wasn't too much fun for me. I did pull out a win somehow though.

In short, know your matchups, good and bad.

[Neutralyze]

Neutralyze - I like your starting list for the building up of a core force - though with the new plastic warbeast pack on the market and the option to use magnets with it how many heavy warbeasts would you say would be best for someone starting out. At the moment you list 5 in that starting list, though I would assume that 2 or 3 would be the more common number that you'd used game to game on average.

Also, what with her abilities, would you foresee the succubus joining the recommended starting core for an army?

succubus is good but not a staple by any means. Certain warlocks love it but others can do without.

[Styvis]

What does your 35pt Kallus list look like?

[simplygnome]

I am still trying to make a kallu list I love to play at 50. I have three heavies but think I need to cut it down to 2 in order to get proper I infantry in there to saturate Zones and to be a threat. I would never take a matchup against something that would counter it. I did play a 3 pt kallu vs 3emo and stormwall wih two storm striders. Needless to say, it wasn't too much fun for me. I did pull out a win somehow though.

In short, know your matchups, good and bad.

Thanks for the answer.

[Neutralyze]

What does your 35pt Kallus list look like?

The list I've been using right now is

Kallus
ravagore
scythean
legionaires full with fairlor
swordsmen full vessel full
sheperd

[Styvis]

Well that's pretty close to what I'm playing, except I've got a succubus and gobbers instead of Farilor. I've been trying to use double ravagores and a scythean at 35pts with Kallus with little success. I really want to get Dark Guidance and several melee heavies to work.

[Neutralyze]

His feat is dependent on infantry Which sucks. So do you build for that or use our heavies instead.

I like getting the most our of a feat an spell list. While kallus is cool, I do junk he is better as a secondary warlock is Multi warlock games

[Styvis]

Thanks for doing this thread.

What con are you going to win with pLylyth?

[Alexwheeler]

His feat is dependent on infantry Which sucks. So do you build for that or use our heavies instead.

I like getting the most our of a feat an spell list. While kallus is cool, I do junk he is better as a secondary warlock is Multi warlock games

how do you feel about using the farrow slaughterhousers? alittle costly being 6pts for 6 models but as a 2nd wave clean up unit doesnt sounds too bad. 10" threat, reach, mat 8 on charge and 4d6 pow 11's when charging dmged models. could be quite a pain having tough on feat turn.

[Neutralyze]

how do you feel about using the farrow slaughterhousers? alittle costly being 6pts for 6 models but as a 2nd wave clean up unit doesnt sounds too bad. 10" threat, reach, mat 8 on charge and 4d6 pow 11's when charging dmged models. could be quite a pain having tough on feat turn.

I feel that kallus can appropriately utilize minions since his feat woks on friendly models. Bogg trogs and slaughter housers. Only issue is their cost for 6 guys when I can get 10 guys with higher defense and same damage on the charge without worrying about the model being pre damaged

[grottoknight]

Long time no see.....moved up to Port Huron area so making it to RIW is tough. Having 4th child in September. Just getting back into WM/H after being away since a few months after MK2 dropped and have all models except a few from Metamorphesis and have all the warlocks up Domination and no models from Domination. This is because I sold a bunch of unpainted stuff off.

I do not own a Ravagor, Scythian, or Typhon. Own 1 Angelius, 1 Seraph, and 1 Carnivean. I could magnetize the plastic box set (would have to look at parts but believe possible).
This in mind what should my next 3 heavies be in order?

We never really played each other as we both had legion. We played in a tiny tourney (Mk1) at Old Guard and I got a "W" on you and went on to win it. Something I can hang my hat on ......now here is my question and something you probably need many hat wracks for....

Could you list your first through third place tourny finishes Name, Size, and where? (betcha can't remeber MWA HA HA)

[Neutralyze]

In the end a good heavy count is

2 angels
2 scytheans
2 ravagores
1 carny
typhon
seraph
If you really want to I can list off my convention wins

[H'lingus]

List them off neuty :3 also can the pot run ? always wanted to know.

[Neutralyze]

The pot cannot run. In MKI the warlock could give the pot the order to run but it no longer can.

[simplygnome]

In the end a good heavy count is

2 angels
2 scytheans
2 ravagores
1 carny
typhon
seraph
If you really want to I can list off my convention wins

Do you find you ever need 2 Scytheans and 2 Ravagores in the same list, or could someone, sans 100+ pt games, get away with:

1 Scythean
1 Ravagore
1 Heavy Beast Kit to go either way

?

[GunSeraph06]

Neut, I'm a Ret player that dabbles in Legion once in a while...I've been trying eVyros's theme force against Legion lately, and have had success against pThags and Absylonia. I know this is kind of a weird question, but do you think eVyros's theme force, with AD Sentinels, first turn faster Destors and Thanes, and his feat would be a problem for an eLylyth list? For as long as I've played Ret, eLylyth has always been my bane, and I was hoping to get some insight from you on if this is viable. The 50 point list I currently use is:

eVyros
Hydra
Hydra
Griffon
Min. Destors
Min. Destors
Max. Sentinels + UA
Thane
Arcanist x 2
Scyir x 2

[Odin1981]

Ok I hate to ask this question due to playing with you at RIW. But if you where to play a certain faction with two collosals from a certain faction (hmmph I wonder what I am talking about lol) what do you think would be the best beast line up I could take considering that I have/own pvayl/evayl, bethayne, abby not played her yet though, kallus same but I don't have enough dudes yet to run yet. I also own beast wise 2 scytheans (please don't ask me to pronunce these correctly lol), a ravagore, typhoon, a seraph, and a raek, (well I have shreddars also) but what the hell everyone I have to my knowledge only runs 1 and I don't have a pot + legionaires yet or other lessers ( I also don't have/run ethags) I have the bfs also and only hex hunters as well as 2 forsaken and 1 shepard atm. But with what I own what is the best list I could come up with in your humble opinion for a potential matchup in the next 2-3 weeks?

[Neutralyze]

Neut, I'm a Ret player that dabbles in Legion once in a while...I've been trying eVyros's theme force against Legion lately, and have had success against pThags and Absylonia. I know this is kind of a weird question, but do you think eVyros's theme force, with AD Sentinels, first turn faster Destors and Thanes, and his feat would be a problem for an eLylyth list? For as long as I've played Ret, eLylyth has always been my bane, and I was hoping to get some insight from you on if this is viable. The 50 point list I currently use is:

eVyros
Hydra
Hydra
Griffon
Min. Destors
Min. Destors
Max. Sentinels + UA
Thane
Arcanist x 2
Scyir x 2

i am not sure if it would or not. depending on the list composition of the elylyth player. either your feat would work how you want it and you move key peices up with feat and get a charge or you lose most those pieces and dont get to do anything.. you might only get a few models on the enemy army even after moving if they kill the right models.

[Neutralyze]

Ok I hate to ask this question due to playing with you at RIW. But if you where to play a certain faction with two collosals from a certain faction (hmmph I wonder what I am talking about lol) what do you think would be the best beast line up I could take considering that I have/own pvayl/evayl, bethayne, abby not played her yet though, kallus same but I don't have enough dudes yet to run yet. I also own beast wise 2 scytheans (please don't ask me to pronunce these correctly lol), a ravagore, typhoon, a seraph, and a raek, (well I have shreddars also) but what the hell everyone I have to my knowledge only runs 1 and I don't have a pot + legionaires yet or other lessers ( I also don't have/run ethags) I have the bfs also and only hex hunters as well as 2 forsaken and 1 shepard atm. But with what I own what is the best list I could come up with in your humble opinion for a potential matchup in the next 2-3 weeks?

Right now with the locking of colossals i think abby is a key player in the race against colossals. besides her, evayl with purification can cause a damper on colossals that have upkeeps on them or pvayl and get there with a few beasts and try to power it down. all those are good options.

[Episkopos]

In the end a good heavy count is

2 angels
2 scytheans
2 ravagores
1 carny
typhon
seraph
If you really want to I can list off my convention wins

Which Caster uses the second Scythean?
Additionally, doesn't ELylyth run three Ravagores?

[Neutralyze]

I have seen 1 list every at a con with 3 ravagores. I feel you go all in and it's a diminishing returns effect.

Saeryn, ethags both use two scytheans for me. I used two with other warlocks before as well.

[Neutralyze]

I have seen 1 list every at a con with 3 ravagores. I feel you go all in and it's a diminishing returns effect.

Saeryn, ethags both use two scytheans for me. I used two with other warlocks before as well.

[flameberge]

I'm a Skorne player and have almost no experience against Legion. As a Legion player, which Skorne casters and/or list builds do you find to be good against Legion?

[Neutralyze]

P morghoul is a good one against some legion matchups, for increased threat ranges. Otherwise I am not too certain.

[H'lingus]

I can help with the skorne 1 i have most my trouble with Xerxis. the armour buff with Defenders ward is just a little to much. Not saying i haven't assassinated him. if he is played patiently on a scenario where he doesnt need to split his force he is hard list to win against. p makeda is a ***** with her YOYO molik.

[flameberge]

P morghoul is a good one against some legion matchups, for increased threat ranges. Otherwise I am not too certain.

Do you find Legion tends to have an easy time with Skorne then?

[moob]

I'm a Skorne player and have almost no experience against Legion. As a Legion player, which Skorne casters and/or list builds do you find to be good against Legion?

Take a Krea. +2 DEF/ARM vs. ranged is a big deal on skorne beasts and their warlock.

[Neutralyze]

Do you find Legion tends to have an easy time with Skorne then?

Everything is matchup dependent.

[Beckman]

Everything is matchup dependent.

Alrighty... So just to get the ball rolling, what would you take against the following Xeris list.

Tyrant Xerxis (*5pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Tiberion (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Cataphract Cetrati (Leader and 5 Grunts) (11pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)

Xeris player's plan: run the Nihilators as first wave, with Hakaar behind to get souls. Fury on them before they charge. Second/Third wave Cetrati and Tibbers. Backwave: The Gladiator and Xeris. Feating/Fury rotating as much as possible.

Seems like Saeryn might be the choice, here?

Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Molik Karn (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Venators Slingers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)

So a balanced list like the above (designed to take out high DEF targets) loses to eLylyth... any other good matchups against it?

Tiers: 4
Supreme Aptimus Zaal & Kovaas (*5pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Praetorian Karax (Leader and 5 Grunts) (4pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)

Last, this monstrosity. What matchups would you run against it? Saeryn has been my choice so far... It's really quite rough.

[Elfenlied]

If you were to participate in a 35pt tournament against a fairly even distribution of factions, with Legion being the most played faction (25% of all participants play Legion), and had to choose 1 Warlock to stick to for all 6 games, which one would you choose? Assuming SR scenarios with deathclocks are played.

For me, it's tough to decide between eVayl and eLylyth. I feel that eVayl offers the most balanced approach, and has few bad matchups. ELylyth on the other hand can brute force her way through most opponents, and has good answers to legion.

[hivemind66]

We have a troll player who is frustrated at facing Legion. So with that in mind...

What Troll Warlocks give Legion the most difficulty?
What advice would you give to a troll player?
What models give you the most trouble as a Legion player to deal with?

The two obvious answers are the Pyre Troll (animus) and Janissa's Wall of doom, but what others? Also, I've seen you state pDoomie's Tier 4 is hard also, was wondering if you wouldn't mind explaining that more in depth.

Thanks a bunch!

[trueblue]

Hello there!
Recently, I pitted my pThagrosh trinity list against an epic Kaya trinity for the first time. Turns out that her dogs have obscene threat ranges on feat and they can easily get the first charge off on my heavies, killing or severely maiming 1 or 2 of them even with spiny growth on. When I do get the charge off, I can easily crush whatever I attack, but thats usually because hes prepared to trade heavies.

Its just really annoying how far they move, preventing me from doing anything other than take it on the chin during feat....then on his next turn he charges again without feat and breaks my jaw off completely lol....

Now, I am still trying out all the legion warlocks one by one....are there any warlocks or list combinations out there that would help me deal with the insane charges?


Thanks!

[VagrantPoet]

Saeryn makes you immune for a turn. Force him to commit to the scenario and then you should be up.

[Neutralyze]

Alrighty... So just to get the ball rolling, what would you take against the following Xeris list.

Tyrant Xerxis (*5pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Tiberion (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Cataphract Cetrati (Leader and 5 Grunts) (11pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)

Xeris player's plan: run the Nihilators as first wave, with Hakaar behind to get souls. Fury on them before they charge. Second/Third wave Cetrati and Tibbers. Backwave: The Gladiator and Xeris. Feating/Fury rotating as much as possible.

Seems like Saeryn might be the choice, here?

Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Molik Karn (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Venators Slingers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)

So a balanced list like the above (designed to take out high DEF targets) loses to eLylyth... any other good matchups against it?

Tiers: 4
Supreme Aptimus Zaal & Kovaas (*5pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Praetorian Karax (Leader and 5 Grunts) (4pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)

Last, this monstrosity. What matchups would you run against it? Saeryn has been my choice so far... It's really quite rough.

Saeryn is a good matchup vs all but pmorghoul. That's a counter feat game waiting to happen.

I feel Pvayl and to an extent, evayl also does well va skorne.

[Neutralyze]

Alrighty... So just to get the ball rolling, what would you take against the following Xeris list.

Tyrant Xerxis (*5pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Tiberion (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Cataphract Cetrati (Leader and 5 Grunts) (11pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)

Xeris player's plan: run the Nihilators as first wave, with Hakaar behind to get souls. Fury on them before they charge. Second/Third wave Cetrati and Tibbers. Backwave: The Gladiator and Xeris. Feating/Fury rotating as much as possible.

Seems like Saeryn might be the choice, here?

Lord Arbiter Hexeris (*6pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Cyclops Shaman (5pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Molik Karn (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Venators Slingers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)

So a balanced list like the above (designed to take out high DEF targets) loses to eLylyth... any other good matchups against it?

Tiers: 4
Supreme Aptimus Zaal & Kovaas (*5pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Praetorian Karax (Leader and 5 Grunts) (4pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)

Last, this monstrosity. What matchups would you run against it? Saeryn has been my choice so far... It's really quite rough.

Saeryn is a good matchup vs all but pmorghoul. That's a counter feat game waiting to happen.

I feel Pvayl and to an extent, evayl also does well va skorne.