I have played a game with a WoldWrath. Its not all bad, but its not ideal.

[unclebiggins]

Okay. So, ended up playing against a Wold Wrath. Upon hearing that this was coming I immediately made sure my 50PC list would end up including a Mountain King, just for conceptiual symmetry. Envy........ So much envy. Not because its mile better than the Mountain King. But because its strength is more obvious. I played the Mountain King how its kind of expected to be played: With loads of support hanging off its neck. Whether thats an offensive animus, rush the KSB or some upkeeps, we end up supporting the Mountain King a fair bit to ensure that it gets its job done because if it doesnt: we are all screwed.

The Wold Wrath doesnt have that. With its amazing board control gun. GREAT, read GREAT animus for Circle and finally a passive level of survivability then you can see how its going to be considered the better of the two.

I have been really positive about the Mountain King so far. I came to terms with him being a support hungry model and that with certain synergies he can reach. Mohsar gives Curse of Shadows, a spell that I keep forgetting that he has for some reason and his feat screws your army for a turn.

The issue I have is that I have developed my game plan with the Mountain King over time and while he hasnt been a dissappointment per say, I can concede points to those who have questioned his value.

We both played lists with synergies and some spell support for our models. I ended up using a Pyre to augment my damage along with the KSB + UA to give me POW 22

I wont bore you with the specifics, actually I ended up winning the game anyway. It was played Mohsar vs Jarl and my opponents list had:

-Mohsar
Druid Wilder
Wold Wrath
Gnarlhorn Satyr
Druids + UA
Blood Trackers + UA
Shifting Stones
Shifting Stones
Gallows Groves
Gallows Groves
Gallows Groves


My list used (This list should be called Trick Shot, I used magic bullet of two whelps and I fried one of my own Whelps with a Pyre so I could fry three Blood Trackers in what I think was the best attack of the game)

-Jarl
Mountain King 20
Pyre 5
Impaler 5
Kriel Warriors + UA + Cabers 10
Fenns + UA
KSB (min) + UA 4
Runebearer 2


His WoldWrath moved up and blasted my charging Fenns with his ranged attack. I was planning on going after the Blood Trackers but the AOE certainly put a dent in that plan. The druids bolted a pair of guys and that was that. Due to the AOE's infecting my charge path the Fenns had a restricted turn that ended up only killing a single Blood Tracker when they could have feasibly gotten to three or four without the AOE's. The Mountain King stepped up to the plate and put a blast into the Druids and managed to wipe out a pair of them on a lucky attack roll (I didnt boost any attack rolls because I wanted to be fresh for Mohsars feat.)

He feated, Curse of Shadows took away my +2 ARM and a boosted Crevasse did a trickly of damage that gave me a whelp that was going to absorb an attack so that he could charge with his Wold Wrath. He did and put an absolute smack down on the Mountain King who ended up on 11 hp by the end of this.

By next turn I used a whelp to fix up the fury on my Pyre and healed up the Moutain King some getting him up to 15 damage. I ran a single whelp towards to Blood Trackers and another towards the Druids. The Pyre boosted to hit on one of the whelps the Mountain King made a killed one blood tracker and set another two on fire. Jarl did his magic bullet things and popped his feat managing to kill Nuala and a Druid but his initial boosted damage roll left the shifting stone nearby the Wold Wrath on 1hp. I some of my last Fenns step back and bust up the stones but I only managed to kill one of them. The Mountain King went to town and missed an unlucky attack but still put 51 damage on the Wrath, and it still had two aspects with no way of me finishing off that last stone to heal him.

Next turn the Wrath healed one damage and finished off the Mountain King without spending fury as I was heavily weakened by Sunhammer. He used his animus and the left overs he cast his animus. The Gallows continued to dance around the field and my Fenns were all but wiped out and then the Gnarlhorn charged and spent like 3 fury and all his initials trying to kill a single Kriel Warrior.

The Wold Wrath was put down by the Pyre Troll who got Flaming Fists from Jarl. Jarl killed off four of the Blood Trackers (magic bullet is awesome) and the last few whelps ran into the back because they had nothing to heal or block. The rest of the battle turned into a grind with Jarl having to play mop up duty on the trees the next turn and then killing the Gnarl horn as I regrouped and slowly won on objective (which was process of elimination)

The issue I had with this fight was that the Mountain King was supported by the KSB, Pyre Troll and his supporting whelps plus other models in the army and still lost against the Wold Wrath. I think that if I had swung back my Fennblades to attack the Wold Wrath then I could have taken down the Wold Wrath in that same turn but the presence of the Gallows Groves that were now close enough to counfoudn healing.

I honestly have to say that against this list, I probaly would have been better using, Mulg, some whelps and maybe the Sons of Bragg instead.

I will still use the Mountain King where possible though, and its good to see that not all the Gargantuans are going to be lack luster, but it saddens me that the Mountain King might end up being the lesser of them.

[new athanc]

I dnt play trolls but good write up.........and whelps help heal other beast is good as hell from where I stand and so fare from what I hear it sounds like you had lots of fury control too on a low fury caster mybe just mybe MK is not down and out yet.???

[new athanc]

Sorry double post.......by phone

[new athanc]

My phone.................>.<

[Sardonic Artery]

Here come the tears over Trolls falling farther behind other factions again.

[PG_petegrrrr]

I proxied woldwrath this weekend and he was pretty awesome.

Mat 6 and knockdown made him super fury efficient when he got into melee, and the gun was pretty hand when druids started pulling models into the aoe. He's not "OMG" strong, and he's not stormwall strong, but he's definitely a good model with a lot going for it.

[bakaryu]

Well you can certainly see why Trollblood players are so put out about the Mountain King.

All the Colossals and so far the Woldwrath are great stand alone pieces that can fulfill their roles superbly by themselves and have special rules that help to either protect them (supression templates) or that bolster the rest of the army (see Woldwrath animus and Lightning Pods).

The Mountain King is the only one that demands another 10-15 points of army support to reach reasonable performance levels, levels which are easily achievable for 8 points less with +2 MAT +4 DEF and only 12 less damage boxes.

[Largi]

This weekend the Top Troll player (myself) played against the Top Cygnar player (Brett Wilkie) witht he Mountain King.
The mountain king with Wild Aggression and the Alpha Strike smashed the left side and did some bleed over damage to the right with all 5 fury. Brett's stormwall then retaliated, with 4 Focus (bond) and Temporal acceleration. It totalled my Mountain King with 2 focus to spare (so take away the bond and the TA attack)

Mulg on the other hand left the Stormwall on 2HP. The extra attack at -2Pow makes all the difference (Yes Mulg died after in the same number of hits)

I want to like it... I really do.....

[unclebiggins]

The thing is I know that if I was Mulg on the table I could have screened him with Jarls feat as well and forced the Wold Wrath to advance into or near the objective.

The Wrath seemed to be pretty damn awesome out of the box without much support. He didnt even need Bounding to charge in the end, it was still just within its 10" threat range as well, the only support it got was Curse of Shadows and a shifting stone unit to keep its aspects online.

[PG_petegrrrr]

The sweetest thing I did with him was use his animus on moshar, who teleported within 6 inches of pHaley. Then unit one of druids, who now all had boosted attack rolls, all hit with force bolts and dragged her screening models out of the way.

Then unit 2 of druid walked up, even with 2 misses, dragged her within 5 inches of Wold Wrath, also managing to knock her down on a crit. Woldwrath walks up, one shots haley

His animus is just so much better than mountain kings that it's not even funny.

[PG_Celedor]

Woldwrath is like a kick in the balls. It's good for factions to get good stuff, I'm happy for Circle. But this leaves me far more perplexed about the MtK. I mean, MAT6 and knockdown?! (etc, etc) ...

When the biggest complaint is Spell Ward...

[Kamahin]

The largest difference between the Mountain King and the WoldWrath for me is that, when you put Woldwrath on the field it feels like a 20 point model with its rules how much it changes your army. When you put the Mountain King down it feels like a very large 12 or 13 point model.

[PG_Warsmith]

Woldwrath is like a kick in the balls...

I truly cannot think of a better way to explain my feelings on the Woldwrath over the Mountain King. The Woldwrath is just so much better its ridiculous. How they are the same amount of points is beyond me.

[sourclams]

Mountain King Recipe:

Take a 15 point model
Add 2 pts of KSB tax
Add 1 pt of Amuck tax
Add whelps to taste (2 pts recommended)

Assemble, paint, and leave on shelf for 5 years

[unclebiggins]

One thing about the Mountain King this game is that it almost completely nullified Mohsars feat by removing the fury from my beasts.

In retrospect, its not like the Wold Wrath totally outclassed my mountain king. I did a ranged attack, killed two guys. He did a ranged attack, killed three guys and stopped me from charging/vengancing towards his Blood Trackers. He charged and did a crap ton of damage and had support healing pieces position near by. I used my healing pieces to recover and support my army then dealt a near crippling amount of return damage. Then I died, then he died. Again, the issue is that if I wanted to build my army without the support the mountain king got. (The KSB for the +2 ARM which across the 7 hits he took that one turn saved his life, the Flaming Fist animus to boost his damage) then I wouldnt have come close to beating the Wold Wrath in this engagement. They were there, and those pieces can do there own thing instead of just supporting the Mountain King, but it feels quite wrong.

I have a believe that when you invest like 12 PC worth of models into supporting something thats already 20PC, you kind of what some spectacular results and you dont really get that with a Mountain King. It comes in being just as good as the other guy.

I am not a believer that as a faction we pay a Troll tax or that our stuff is really substandard because of our buffs. I think we are pointed fairly and our stuff rarely requires synergy or buffing to become outstanding, I think we good at things and then become better. The Mountain King feels to me now that it is a slightly below average model (for its cost) that becomes merly a good model with support.

Hell, the Stormwall is widely considered one of the best Collosals and with just 5PC on the table it becomes insanely effective at all manner of things. 5 PC for a Mountain King only covers up its defensive weakness and stacking ARM onto a Mountain King is very very important.

[sourclams]

One thing about the Mountain King this game is that it almost completely nullified Mohsars feat by removing the fury from my beasts.

Isn't this entirely attributable to the whelps? Whelps can be taken independently of MtK.

[PG_joedj]

stacking ARM onto a Mountain King is very very important.

When I read the new No Quarter and saw the Spell Ward ability and the animus on the Wold Wrath I was instantly jealous.

Maintaining ARM 19 on the MK is absolutely necessary. Cryx debuffs gut him very efficiently. Spell Ward would have been fine and not OP on the MK.

The Wold Wrath's animus is amazing for THE staple Circle unit.
A comparable animus for the MK might have been a modified Amuck that allowed boosted special/charge attacks on target 'warrior or warbeast' model. Again, as a individual model buff it would not have been OP, but would have made spamming the animus an equal effect to the one use of the Woldwrath's animus.

Depending on the Mammoth's stats, it appears when I field my MK I'll be able to maintain the feeling/impression that I'm playing as the underdog. A role that I like when playing my Trollbloods casually, but am beginning to not like when considering my chances for high-level tournament play...

[Beckman]

I have a believe that when you invest like 12 PC worth of models into supporting something thats already 20PC, you kind of what some spectacular results and you dont really get that with a Mountain King. It comes in being just as good as the other guy.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with this.

I am not a believer that as a faction we pay a Troll tax or that our stuff is really substandard because of our buffs. I think we are pointed fairly and our stuff rarely requires synergy or buffing to become outstanding, I think we good at things and then become better.

Mayyybe. If you really want to look at some models that might make you change that opinion, look at the Stalker, the Scythean, and the Gladiator.

All three of them are really super aggressively costed. I can't see that I feel the same way about the Troll beasts in general. With casters and buffs, they get the job done. I just don't feel like our stuff is quite there until you start thinking about the different buffs we can hand out.

That said, I don't think our stuff is "bad", it's just not generally "good". It's somewhere inbetween - with a few exceptions :P

Fennblades + UA, KWs + Fixin's, and Fell Callers would be gladly taken in by any other faction. Heh.

The Mountain King feels to me now that it is a slightly below average model (for its cost) that becomes merly a good model with support.

Yeah. I agree with that. I feel like it's a 16 point model. Maybe 17-18 points in special circumstances or with specific casters.

Hell, the Stormwall is widely considered one of the best Collosals and with just 5PC on the table it becomes insanely effective at all manner of things. 5 PC for a Mountain King only covers up its defensive weakness and stacking ARM onto a Mountain King is very very important.

The Mountain King needs KSB + Whelps, or you're wasting your time. Janissa seems like a pretty desirable piece as well... But maybe not REQUIRED. Obviously at that point, you may want an Earthborn? That's an 8 point investment, or an 18 point investment with the Earthborn. Add a Pyre in there for a STR buff, a unit for 10 points, and a runebearer or somesuch and you're done with your list.

[HellecticMojo]

actually, there's would've been massive rage (more so than now) if MK had spell ward. Trolls runs on buffs more than circle does. Woldwrath is serviceable as a beast because it got good things going for it without needing buffs. 2pt of shifting stones excluding.

atleast we got a better looking model...

[Beckman]

When I read the new No Quarter and saw the Spell Ward ability and the animus on the Wold Wrath I was instantly jealous.

Maintaining ARM 19 on the MK is absolutely necessary. Cryx debuffs gut him very efficiently. Spell Ward would have been fine and not OP on the MK.

The Wold Wrath's animus is amazing for THE staple Circle unit.
A comparable animus for the MK might have been a modified Amuck that allowed boosted special/charge attacks on target 'warrior or warbeast' model. Again, as a individual model buff it would not have been OP, but would have made spamming the animus an equal effect to the one use of the Woldwrath's animus.

Depending on the Mammoth's stats, it appears when I field my MK I'll be able to maintain the feeling/impression that I'm playing as the underdog. A role that I like when playing my Trollbloods casually, but am beginning to not like when considering my chances for high-level tournament play...

Well, I would say that we do have SOME things going for us.

1. Our stuff hits VERY hard. This is a big deal, because there will be more toys to wreck.
2. Mulg can one round most Collosals with sufficient buffs.
3. Slag Troll is really efficient at putting damage on Woldwraiths AND Colossals.
4. Like anything else, Colossals/Gargantuans can't stop on walls. They have big bases, so this can be hard for the Colossal/Gargantuan player to manage - especially if you space your wall correctly, and even more difficult if you're playing Gunny, since he can lay down a second wall that the larged based monstrocity can't land on.
5. Slag Troll, Bomber & friends have an easy time hitting the big guys, since they don't get the in melee bonus to DEF, can't get stealth, and can't get conceal/cover.

If we shift to taking a Mauler and Mulg in one of our lists we can cut through the ARM, so long as we can get the charge and not the other way around. In order for that to happen, you pretty much have to be able to jam the enemy guy, use walls as described above, or buff SPD somehow (not advised if it comes at the expense of punching power).

[Beckman]

actually, there's would've been massive rage (more so than now) if MK had spell ward. Trolls runs on buffs more than circle does. Woldwrath is serviceable as a beast because it got good things going for it without needing buffs. 2pt of shifting stones excluding.

atleast we got a better looking model...

Why would I have rage over the MK having spell ward??? Animi when cast from beasts are not spells... So Rage would work just fine... KSB aura isn't a spell... so.... what else would my beast miss out on?? Quicken, I guess....

I would be so happy if my MK had spell ward...

[Benopotomus]

Why would I have rage over the MK having spell ward??? Animi when cast from beasts are not spells... So Rage would work just fine... KSB aura isn't a spell... so.... what else would my beast miss out on?? Quicken, I guess....

I would be so happy if my MK had spell ward...

Yeah, he might be worth 18 pts then.

[Kamahin]

Why would I have rage over the MK having spell ward??? Animi when cast from beasts are not spells... So Rage would work just fine... KSB aura isn't a spell... so.... what else would my beast miss out on?? Quicken, I guess....

I would be so happy if my MK had spell ward...

Only things I see that would be sad losing off him would be Wild Agression.

[HellecticMojo]

Why would I have rage over the MK having spell ward??? Animi when cast from beasts are not spells... So Rage would work just fine... KSB aura isn't a spell... so.... what else would my beast miss out on?? Quicken, I guess....

I would be so happy if my MK had spell ward...

Surefoot (carnage and armywide surefoot is why I might take the Mk at all)
return fire: it is a good spray
Wild Aggression/fortune:

[Beckman]

Only things I see that would be sad losing off him would be Wild Agression.

That's a good point. But I would still make that trade in a heartbeat... He has Amuck! and eHoarluk's feat lets him charge/trample for free... so... Cast Amuck, trample for free?

You couldn't Crippling Grasp/Parasite him, or Hunter's Mark, or Dogpile, or Pin Cushion, or lots of other things...

If they made him Spell Ward, 54-55 boxes and the ability to make initial ranged attacks even if he made power attacks, he would stand up to the Woldwraith, I think. Especially if he had a +2 RAT Fell Caller solo in the next book. 2 RNG10 sprays at POW16 if you melee thresher would be really a good thing.

But no. We get 1x Spray if you thresher. And only on Living dudes *sigh*.

[PG_petegrrrr]

That's a good point. But I would still make that trade in a heartbeat... He has Amuck! and eHoarluk's feat lets him charge/trample for free... so... Cast Amuck, trample for free?

You couldn't Crippling Grasp/Parasite him, or Hunter's Mark, or Dogpile, or Pin Cushion, or lots of other things...

If they made him Spell Ward, 54-55 boxes and the ability to make initial ranged attacks even if he made power attacks, he would stand up to the Woldwraith, I think. Especially if he had a +2 RAT Fell Caller solo in the next book. 2 RNG10 sprays at POW16 if you melee thresher would be really a good thing.

But no. We get 1x Spray if you thresher. And only on Living dudes *sigh*.

Technically, it's only a half thresher. You only get it in one field of fire.

If he had thresher, he'd actually be a little bit better.

[Gython]

Woldwrath is like a kick in the balls...

[PeregrineP]

IMHO, it's the knock-down fists that get me. That seems completely in-theme for a Mountain King/trolls that he'd be able to AoE knockdown around his punches. That would also help me understand/justify his stupid low MAT/RAT....

[bakaryu]

I agree PeregrineP, I would have been fine with how great the Woldwrath was if he wasn't also so much better in melee combat than the Mountain King.

Not only does he weigh in at +1 MAT right off the bat, but his melee hits have auto knockdown under an AOE4 template? So looking at versus DEF12 jacks/beasts (everyone except Menoth and Khador) with charging:

MK charges (1 fury) and boosts initial to hit roll (2 fury) needing 7s to hit (91% hit chance)
MK swings with second fist needing 7s to hit (at this point you have a 58% hit chance)
MK buys three more swings needing 7s to hit (again at a 58% hit chance)

So out of your four swings needing 7s to hit the MK will hit on average two, perhaps three times for a total of three maybe four hits.

The WW charges (1 fury) and boosts to hit (2 fury) needing 6's to hit (95% hit chance)
The WW buys three more attacks that all hit automatically (obviously a 100% hit chance)

So out of your four attacks including the charge 95% of the time the WW will score four hits.

This also goes without saying that generally I will take the roll when needing 6's to hit so there is a 72% chance that the WW will actually score five hits instead of four - the best that an MK can realistically hope for.

THIS for me is the biggest kick in the teeth about the Woldwrath - he is better in melee combat than the Mountain King, better at ranged combat than the Mountain King, better supporting the army than the Mountain King, better unsupported than the Mountain King and is harder to kill than the Mountain King.

Yet he is the same points?

[omerplata]

You guys are all forgetting one thing, we get whelps! Which as you all know is the most OP fury/healing management in the game.

/sarcasm

[PG_TrollSlayer]

I think the Beast Handlers/Shepherd/Wilder would like a word with you on that...

[Impostor]

And of course there is no way that some PP official or Game Designer would comment on the decisions they made when setting the stats and balancing rules for colossals?
I would really like to hear some kind of justifications from behind the scenes, or maybe some playtesting battle reports from them... (or am i missing something?)

After seeing what WoldWrath can do compared to MK, I am afraid what they are gonna come up with when it comes to Archangel.

[SethDrebitko]

Yea I probably won't end up getting one. It's not that I don't think its bad (it could be 1-2 pts cheaper), but I feel that I could keep playing without it and not miss much. It's a shame its a great model but I think trolls will compete fine without it.

[SteakAndSpirits]

For what it's worth, Privateer Press has what I believe to be an excellent track record of not creating models in a vaccuum. As primarily a Legion player, I can tell you that during the transition from MK I to MK II, there was a great deal of head scratching going on. Our Warbeasts had lost flight, our striders had lost rapid shot, we had random posters dropping into our forum giving us their condolence about how we'd gotten our wings (har, har) clipped. Never mind that Typhon lost a point of RAT, and reach, and the force-to-pitch effect turned into a critical effect. The list was much, much longer.

There was a lot of outcry. Needless to say, the doom and gloom hung heavily over the faction forums.

However.

The faction wasn't balanced in a vaccuum. Neither were the models. And when the Forces of Hordes: Legion of Everblight book hit the shelves, and we saw things in light of the full scope of releases for our faction, that doom and gloom largely evaporated. In fact, if you ever feel like a fairly hilarious read, go dig up old Legion threads during that time frame. I think there are few people today who would agree with the opinions expressed then.

The point I'm making is: You're only seeing part of the whole story. This next Hordes book is going to be pretty large. I expect that the Mountain King was not designed in a vaccuum. There will be a lot of releases. And I think a lot of you will probably find some new ways to really, really take advantage of the MtK.

Anyway. Feel free to get back to the doom and gloom. Just thought I'd drop in and try to share some insight from a similar experience. Good luck, TB.

-s&s

[hackdZ]

HAHA! This made my day. Thank you sir!

Only a more related note; I will almost certainly be picking up a MtK when he becomes available. Even if I don't get a whole lot of use out of him on the table. It is a bit saddening however when compared to the WoldWrath, who just feels much more in-line with his points cost.

[cryptomancer]

Yep. That's pretty much exactly as expected.

le sigh...

-crypto

[thumpernickle]

Quick question. I don't have the rules for the Wold Wrath, but I assume it is a Construct. How is it healing?

[HellecticMojo]

shifting stones mah good friend

[Largi]

As Steakand Spirits said, We shall see what Gargantuans and the following release bring. There has to be something that means it got pointed as it was. And the Playtesters are playing a few expansions ahead of us.

[PG_thegreatblah]

Here come the tears over Trolls falling farther behind other factions again.

Kindly take your jabs elsewhere and leave us to wallow in our own self pity.

Thank you.