How to break it to 'em - New Players and Starting Khador

[rivenwyrm]

I act as our pseudo-PG most of the time (our actual PGs are a rare sight). So it often falls to me to introduce someone to the game, or play against them for their first couple games at our LGS with. I also tend to give out advice and often try to talk strategy with the newer players after our games.

The end result is that more than a couple Khadorans have come through our doors with the battlebox, or their hearts set on MoW, Karchev or other similar aspects of our faction and I'll be the one who tries to help them grow as a player. After watching a newer player struggle with Karchev to the point of almost complete desperation, and having had a similar experience myself with Karchev specifically, MoWs and our jacks generally, I'd like prevent this from occurring again. Overall, I've been quite successful with Khador, placing in several local tourneys, etc. However I've mostly utilized our light infantry to achieve this.

The other day, a newer player and I were talking, and I said to him "If you want to play jack heavy, you should play Protectorate." This was IMO truthful but too blunt. I've fielded jack heavy lists upon occasion, and have even had success with them. But I would not encourage a player to pursue it as their primary playstyle within Khador.

As the forum has seen over the past year, this is not an unusual phenomenon.

So my question for the community is this: Assuming the player is receptive, how do you go about encouraging them to spend their money and time branching away from what brought them into the faction?

[Steamwitch]

I play PG for my group allmost 100% of the time and even then im still new(ish). But if they have battlebox in hand its hard to say. "you picked the wrong army for that" so I really, Really, REALLY. encorage proxying. Sure they wanna jump in representing a faction with there models but. As manny here I came for the Jacks. Te game even pushes a focus on jacks thru warcasters who's real talent is not magic only but jack driveing beyond what manny people can do. I have had a player buy, not proxy, khador, cygnar, and settle on circle. Before being happy. It sucked to see him dump 100-120daru. But I did all I could to figure out his style. But proxying is best. I know some caster have posterchild on them like karchev, terminus, nemo, reznik only to name a few hellni got into the game for karchev! I came for the jacks, stuck around for the infantry. But that sutes my chess like playstyle of filling roles in a list to function. Im new(ish) to te game not how i stratigise. I know what I like

[Steamwitch]

grr max post, short ver. I think that you need to just be honest. The game is not cheap, and dumping money into a faction to make it what it is not will not be fun at all tell them while they are $50.00 in so they can eBay it back or something before its too late. It sucks but its better than the alternative.

[nerdkingdan]

As a relatively new player. I have now played an amazing 22 games. Though I have been doing rather well with the learning curve I'm currently 16 wins and 6 losses. At the start I was running lots of jacks, and the battle box. after 1 game I saw jack spam didn't work, and I had to go back to the store and buy different jacks and infantry. At first I was upset I bought the battle box cause I felt cheated that I had it. After a few games I put the whole thing in a box and bought all new stuff.

So with my history... I don't think anything could make me feel better about the wasted purchases. I have now ran everything I bought in at least 1 game, with the exception of the Mechanic Attachment, I just don't see a list for it with what I own.

What I would do... I think the only real plan here is to develop a pSorcha list with a Destroyer that can hold its own. I came to the decision that a pSorcha list that at least used 1 of my 2 jacks would be an acceptable end result, in the end my inexperience I couldn't come up with one. I am sure it exists and a plan like that to give them would be a good consolation prize.

Psorcha, feat + boosted bombard for assassination is a viable strategy, the particulars is better decided by someone better than me, but a 15, 25, 35 and 50 plan for that 1 caster using one of the two jacks, would cushion the blow. As for the MOW, those I lucky don't own, but I can't see what you can do with them... but what do I know, a workable list that could win 40% of the time with that stuff would be great.. then tell them to add infantry elements, Nyss, Kayazy, WGI, IFP... and people tell me the IFU, though I don't know them well enough to say IFU are good, I played them 2 games now and like them...

My thoughts, as someone really just leaving the situation.

[Revamp]

Honestly? I could be playing protectorate just as easily as Khador. Like many i was part of a 2 player box thing, and i split with a friend. I looked at the box and said "Russia or crusaders, both are cool with me." so i let him pick. He picked Menoth, hated it, and ended up playing Skorne when he realized he just prefered hordes. I on the other hand entered Khador as the default other half of the box and liked it fine. I am one who can pick up any faction, find stuff i like in it, and play that. Now i like everything. But if i hadn't sold my menoth to someone for paint supplies, i would have probably played both and been just hunky dory with that.

so for me? I liked khador when i played it initially just because it reminded me of Russia during the old days of the Czars.

[scout's honor]

So my question for the community is this: Assuming the player is receptive, how do you go about encouraging them to spend their money and time branching away from what brought them into the faction?

Theorymachine. There's nothing like it to get someone to really want to try something out.

Seriously, all I usually need to do is get new players to start thinking about what would make a good list for their caster, rather than thinking about models by themselves.

[Digilante]

I think the key is to better prepare new players for what to expect. Every time I see an introductory article on Kahdor that talks about us being the "armor faction" with the "biggest warjacks" I cringe. We are not the toughest faction and we are not really about warjacks; introducing ourselves that way is just not a good place to start.

The "real" way Khador plays is well supported in the Iron Kingdoms fluff. Magic comes hard to our people. We are barely able to create cortexes and have limited technological resources. Khador is stuck in the past, and only through the efforts of Irusk have we begun to adopt "modern" tools of warfare like rifles and artillery. Instead our strength is a stalwart, patriotic populace that was bred in a harsh climate and yearns to rekindle past glory. The foundation of Khador is the tenacity of the people, not magic or technology.

Another part of the problem is the way most people are introduced to the game. The battle boxes all focus entirely on the battlegroup, and this just isn't where the action is in Khador. Those of us that have had success with the battle box well know that it isn't the 'jacks that get the job done. We can't change what is in the box, but we can do our best to impress upon new players the strength of Khador infantry over jacks, and make sure the next next thing they add to their army is a unit of pikemen or assassins.

So if we want to avoid "letting down" new players it is our job as the community to correct the misrepresentation of our faction. Khador is not a faction of wizardry and war-machines. It is a fraction of heroic people that are a bit stuck in the past but have the ferocity and ability to carve a bloody path through the Iron Kingdoms to claim what is rightfully theirs.

[Marth]

Yes, I guess sincere honesty is the best way. It does, however, depend on how deep they already bought into the faction. When I started and went on my first spending spree... I branched out and got as much of the infantry that I could. Up to now, I only own one duplicate - a jack, and that's a juggernaut (which I got really cheap). It has served me very well. I didn't go with the battle box, but started with Irusk whom I liked first looks-wise from the casters, then a Spriggan and a Jugg - all purchases based on the looks. And it did work.

I think the easiest way to sell it to them is saying: "Jack Heavy" for Khador means, in general, TWO jacks, three with some casters. that's the amount that can be comfortably run (at your level of play).

[x3tsniper]

Now, you just need to tell PP to stop hosing new players with their terrible advertising(?)(flavor text)(***?!). >.>

[Esper]

Now, you just need to tell PP to stop hosing new players with their terrible advertising(?)(flavor text)(***?!). >.>

I must have missed the official PP ad where they say to play Khador if you want to play jack heavy.

[PG_The Captain]

Can always marshall the Destroyer to a Koldun lord. Lightens the load of the warcaster and still keeps the jack in play pretty much as effectively as it would be in a battlegroup.

[RocketSurgeon]

I encourage proxying, but if I'm around for new people being shown the game or introducing the game to them myself I'm going to have much of my Khador with me. I like to break out the models and put "what works" against "what we joined the faction for." We take turns behind each army and I let them change the big slow armor side any way they like. Soul crushing defeats do happen in this game, especially when you're new or you insist on an unbalanced army. I think its important to recognize this and establish them as a positive learning experience.

I also strongly advise against the battlebox. Or the 2 player box for that matter. Those are some of the rarest models I've seen on a table. Maybe Juggy as an exception to that. Finding your initial investment was in dust collectors can be demoralizing. I don't believe the battle box is good at explaining the way our faction functions. I think starting with the battlebox and expanding from it is a handicap. One many players routinely overcome, but a handicap all the same.

I don't expect any help from PP in dealing with the misconceptions of our faction. I agree with Digilante on our fluff and on the battlebox. But the fluff isn't something easily accessed. I've seen people begging for better ways to get their hands on the lore since 2006. The battlebox is an established thing for all the factions. I don't think they want us to be an exception to the format or to cave and redesign ours somehow. MOWs...there are plenty of threads new and old on these glorious paperweights. We're on our own in these things. Its truly up to the players.

Maybe we need a sticky that really sells the true nature of our faction through as much fluff and propaganda as the mods will let us put together?

[PG_battlemechanik]

The battlebox is good at explaining how the core mechanics of the game function, which is more important than explaining how the typical khador list functions. I think most people would be better off playing mangled metal for far longer than they typically do before starting to play with infantry.

Also, my win percentage with karchev t4 (2 MoW units, 5 jacks) is higher than any other caster I've played 10+ games with. If someone's just playing for fun, there's no reason they can't have a good time with jacks and MoW. Their opponents may not have a good time, jack brick is not fun to play against, you either brought the tools to get through / around that much arm+def, or you didn't.

That being said, I think it is important to set expectations, and think a "Want lots of jacks? Play menoth." sticky would not be out of line.

[rivenwyrm]

The "real" way Khador plays is well supported in the Iron Kingdoms fluff. Magic comes hard to our people. We are barely able to create cortexes and have limited technological resources. Khador is stuck in the past, and only through the efforts of Irusk have we begun to adopt "modern" tools of warfare like rifles and artillery. Instead our strength is a stalwart, patriotic populace that was bred in a harsh climate and yearns to rekindle past glory. The foundation of Khador is the tenacity of the people, not magic or technology.

So if we want to avoid "letting down" new players it is our job as the community to correct the misrepresentation of our faction. Khador is not a faction of wizardry and war-machines. It is a faction of heroic people that are a bit stuck in the past but have the ferocity and ability to carve a bloody path through the Iron Kingdoms to claim what is rightfully theirs.

Hmm, I like that way of putting it. Next time I have this conversation I'll try phrasing it this way. It's certainly a part of why I stuck with the faction after I learned the core game mechanics. Perhaps I can help foster this sensibility, to ease new players into a broader perspective.

So with my history... I don't think anything could make me feel better about the wasted purchases. I have now ran everything I bought in at least 1 game, with the exception of the Mechanic Attachment, I just don't see a list for it with what I own.

What I would do... I think the only real plan here is to develop a pSorcha list with a Destroyer that can hold its own. I came to the decision that a pSorcha list that at least used 1 of my 2 jacks would be an acceptable end result, in the end my inexperience I couldn't come up with one. I am sure it exists and a plan like that to give them would be a good consolation prize.
Psorcha, feat + boosted bombard for assassination is a viable strategy, the particulars is better decided by someone better than me, but a 15, 25, 35 and 50 plan for that 1 caster using one of the two jacks, would cushion the blow.

A good idea, I like it. I'll work this as my angle. In theory I know components which have broader application that can make it at least acceptable to play up to 35, even if it's not particularly exciting and is definitely one dimensional (basically a ranged assassination list). The MoWs, as you say, are a complete wash. I have gotten a few people interested in eIrusk out of the 2 player battlebox, since he fits it so much better. That's been my mindset up to this point.

Theorymachine. There's nothing like it to get someone to really want to try something out.

Seriously, all I usually need to do is get new players to start thinking about what would make a good list for their caster, rather than thinking about models by themselves.

Mmm, also a good idea. I've always felt Khadoran casters to be more compelling in character than most other factions'. No cartoon villains or perfect heroes here, just Sons and Daughters.

Thanks for weighing in everybody, certainly some helpful input. Good to hear that some people navigated their early days a little better.

[OrsusSmash]

I was going to type up a wall of text about my thoughts about this topic (which I think is very important for new players to understand,) but then I realized I'd done it already:

http://handcannononline.com/blog/201...iew-of-khador/



The tl;dr version: I think that the battlebox teaches the player a lot about what they need to understand about Khador, but not all of it is obvious. Nor does all of it really sink in, until you're exposed to the faction as a whole.

[rivenwyrm]

Good article, I like. It certainly articulates the core faction concepts well. I think your point about burst SPD is one that's really key to good Khador play but is lost on many until much later.

[Kuarnix]

I must have missed the official PP ad where they say to play Khador if you want to play jack heavy.

Yeah, to be honest I was introduced to the game by a PP staffer at comic con back in 2006, and he described Khador as a specialist faction, not an armor faction.......


Regardless, the issue is subsequent purchases, not the battlebox. I always recommend that new players get the battlebox and an alternate caster (Vlad if possible), then follow up with Widowmakers, a 2 point solo, and a 10-man unit, and then probably a third caster before they buy any new warjacks. The crux of the issue is that if you don't understand how Sorscha works, you'll think 3 warjacks (that aren't all Destroyers) and MoW shocktroopers is a great idea.....you might be able to pull it off with eIrusk or Vlad, or maybe Butcher, but probably not Sorscha.

[Steamwitch]

IMHO sorcha is a horrible, HORRIBLE caster to start with. All she is, is a poster child from mki and thats the only reason she is in the battle box. Look at the other starting boxes and you tell me that the butcher w/juggernaught & destroyer would be too much for any of them, answer is prolly no. The other boxes support there baseline styles better. Plain and simple sorcha is not a good rep for khador at all. She has nothing to truely help units at all fog of war loses out the arcane sheild, defenders ward and, crippleing grasp. Sorcha needs to go. Plain and simple her playstyle dose nothing to teach the player about khador. She is just too selfish in her spell list boundless charge would be the only spell that I can think of next to razor wind that shows khadors face. Shes a relic from mki that did not keep her effectiveness in the transition for the right reasons. But butcher is just a better starting point. A spell for jacks, a unit, an attack, and general buff to damage.

[PG_ColonelKoIron]

I always encourage players to get as many wacasters as possible. They are cheap and change the playstyle each time you change.

So if they are struggling with Karchev try to guide them to some other casters, Butcher is a fun choice

It also depends whether the player wants to win tournaments or just play the game. If they are looking for tournaments, well you can guide them towards the sorts of things that you have used.

If they are in it just for the game, I say let them run with heavy jacks/men o war, etc. If they really love the faction they will probably expand into the other areas anyway.

[Steamwitch]

post limmit, but butcher has a simple feat thats easy to apply. He stresses FOCUS is low in our faction, he represents our reselewnce, how hard we hit, how much harder we can hit, and how we can just outlast the opponent that little bit that matters. Te butcher is more khadoran than scorcha is by a long shot. Sure he is on a med base. But that should not be an excuse to package sorcha instead I under stand that the boxes represent the games jacks size and use and the 2 player one supports all base sizes and model types well. But really khador got screwed in the end. Anyt time i hear a player is intrested in khador i give them butcher and a jugg w/ destroyer and say have fun. Shes not what she used to be and is not a good representaive of what we do.

[HRM]

I personally love Kommander Sorscha, but that's just me.

[x3tsniper]

pButcher would be a hard sell for the battle box. Sure, he isn't to terribly hard to play, but a new player against any ranged list will probably end poorly.

[Steamwitch]

true, but for a battle box enviorment I think it would do fine then they can brantch out.

[Marth]

I'm a little unsure whether we actually HAVE a better BB caster than Sorscha. Well, maybe E-Sorscha, because she embodies Khador as a whole best: Strong Destructive Power (Feat), Burst Speed (Boundless Charge), Good Infantry & Support (Shatterstorm, Desperate Pace), Strong Casters (Cyclone & Stuff). (Maybe that's why she's so good?)

The Butcher is too much into destructive power and misleading about the Pro-Jack-Abilities. Vlad is just... Vlad. It'd be like as strong as the Deneghra box (which, to top it off, is 3 points over). Harkevich would be misleading regarding the jack stuff, Strakhov regarding the burst speed, Irusk regarding the infantry...

I think you're getting my drift. So I say: pSorscha, while being a little to far into the "Caster-focus, Asassination power" field for comfort, is actually a good bet as long as Epic Casters won't make it into the boxes.

[elcrasho]

I think part of the problem is the perception of Khador does not line up with what Khador actually does. You look at the motherland and see Warjacks with near impenetrable armor that hit like a truck. You may envision a slow moving wall of red iron creeping up the field and immagine your opponents feeling if impending doom when they realize this. Tell new players that we have the toughest jacks but other factions can make their jacks better in the areas that we are good at. Point them toward our weapon masters, show them WG Deathstar. Show them the ways to make a (19/20 Def 20+ Arm) Murder Machine out of the butcher and vlad with the help of a 1 point wardog. Let them know that MoW and Jacks for us are really there to tar pit enemy beasts and jacks, or to get our casters to a position for an assassination run.

[currentlyunknown]

I must have missed the official PP ad where they say to play Khador if you want to play jack heavy.

You're right. Having the only Battlebox with 2 heavies is not at all an implication that the faction is supposed to play armor heavy. Based on the battlebox, you would expect to run 30+ infantry of armor 13 or less in most of the popular tourney lists.

EDIT: I should point out that I think battlebox in general can be misleading for newer players. It's a good way to learn the game, but I've run into a number of newer players that don't recognize the importance of ratio of pieces that need a lot of support from casters vs independent types.

[Marth]

Yeah, the battleboxes are misleading - and not only the Khador one (orly? Slayers? Ironclads? Repenters? Axers? Arugs's? Carniveans? Talk about "bad buys" again). They're there to make Demo Games with, and show Players one of the integral elements of WM (not /the/), which are also the most interesting. (IMO. I mean, Jacks have options regarding their actions. Infantry... are a bit more plain)

[RocketSurgeon]

Yeah, to be honest I was introduced to the game by a PP staffer at comic con back in 2006, and he described Khador as a specialist faction, not an armor faction.......

I don't think most players had that luxury.
We're introduced to the game and the faction by their advertising unless we're lucky enough to have a really solid PG(thank God for this thread showing them kicking). You tend to hear things like "big, heavy, durable, smashy, and takes a lot of punishment." Our giant jacks are pitched hard as symbolic of the way we roll. We have less, so we build it to last.

I was fortunate enough to have some people at the LGS who were familiar with the game in 2006, and they regaled me on Khador's elite armored infantry. Ultimately, 75% of my initial purchases don't get to come out of the foam, and not for lack of desire. I consider myself lucky to have that percentage so low. I tire of newbies coming to Khador and being disappointed and frustrated. The fact that it's kept happening internationally over the years suggests there is something out there selling a false concept.

[CardiffTower]

I think part of the problem is the perception of Khador does not line up with what Khador actually does. You look at the motherland and see Warjacks with near impenetrable armor that hit like a truck. You may envision a slow moving wall of red iron creeping up the field and immagine your opponents feeling if impending doom when they realize this. Tell new players that we have the toughest jacks but other factions can make their jacks better in the areas that we are good at. Point them toward our weapon masters, show them WG Deathstar. Show them the ways to make a (19/20 Def 20+ Arm) Murder Machine out of the butcher and vlad with the help of a 1 point wardog. Let them know that MoW and Jacks for us are really there to tar pit enemy beasts and jacks, or to get our casters to a position for an assassination run.

Stramgely enough, I just came back from the LGS after having this discussion with a player of another system who wants to start Khador. He wants his first purchase to be the 2-player box and pButcher, so I gladly steered him over to the blister rack and away from the 2-player boxes. It takes no effort to explain a few of the "intricasies" that are Khador, that we can field a 15 man utility unit that can do most anything in the game (except kill jacks easily) while being hard to hit (WGDS!!). And its also easy to explain the benefit of pikemen in a list as the "take on anything" unit. His eyes lit up when I explained about Kayazy running into combat and being hard to hit while they can take a route of opportunity in their next activation. "Which jacks?" he asked. Spriggan is a good jack with enough utility built into it, and Behemoth is just the go-to jack of choice. Now we have a new player in the store, coming away from that other company, who will spend the next few weeks using my models to learn game mechanics, while he saves up and sells off his red marines army. The store still gets a sale, and we get a returning player. Much better in my view than someone who shares a 2-player box with a mate and then comes out of it feeling cheated.

I am not saying the 2-player boxes are bad, or that the battleboxes are bad. I own pSorcha (1 metal 2 plastic). Yea, I picked up two cheap bargains of the Khador bits from 2 boxes, easiest and cheapest way I found to do my pButcher funzies tier list

[Kuarnix]

I don't think most players had that luxury.
We're introduced to the game and the faction by their advertising unless we're lucky enough to have a really solid PG(thank God for this thread showing them kicking). You tend to hear things like "big, heavy, durable, smashy, and takes a lot of punishment." Our giant jacks are pitched hard as symbolic of the way we roll. We have less, so we build it to last.

I was fortunate enough to have some people at the LGS who were familiar with the game in 2006, and they regaled me on Khador's elite armored infantry. Ultimately, 75% of my initial purchases don't get to come out of the foam, and not for lack of desire. I consider myself lucky to have that percentage so low. I tire of newbies coming to Khador and being disappointed and frustrated. The fact that it's kept happening internationally over the years suggests there is something out there selling a false concept.

Right, but the point I'm trying to make is that it isn't the faction advertising - I think in one of the Apotheosis or Escalation stories, Nemo describes Khador warjacks as big dangerous hulking brutes, but very stupid and poor when disconnected from their controllers (i.e., without focus). The problem is how players describe the faction to other prospective players, how players who don't play Khador view and describe the faction, and the tendency for people to take things to extremes ("run ALL 'jacks!" "run nothing but MoW!" "durable means I can survive anything!" "high damage means I can kill anything!").

For the most part, it's a true view. In no way can the argument ever successfully be made that other factions have warjacks that are bigger, heavier, more durable, or do more raw damage than the comparable Khador 'jack. Every other faction has to use buffs and support to get to comparable or superior levels - we're the ones with the raw stats, that's what Khador is about! Less points and focus on making our warjacks last longer or do more damage than other factions, more points spent on beatface units, and more activations spent attacking. The only real help our warjacks need is usually speed anyway, MAT 6 is acceptable for attacking warjacks, and you were going to be boosting against a warcaster anyway even with MAT 7 or 8 (most of the time).

The true beauty of a well-done Khador army, in my opinion, is how it can get demolished, and still come back to break face. That's the real message we out to sell about durability, not of individual models but of the faction's game plan.

[DSW]

I have done well with jack and MOW lists. Granted, I was limited by my army, but except for a few brutal matchups, I have done just fine without the magic/pro/cheese/use or lose units. I very much think there is a limitation in thinking that you have to cleave to things like winter guard to win or have fun. I do both without them. I play my army differently than someone who has those units, and therein lies the key. I highly dislike a formulaic approach to battle on the board and find it of very limited feasibility against competent opponents. I play to the strengths of my army, and the weaknesses of my opponent and their army.

My plan is different every time I hit the board, and I find it a very satisfying way to play.

[rivenwyrm]

The true beauty of a well-done Khador army, in my opinion, is how it can get demolished, and still come back to break face. That's the real message we out to sell about durability, not of individual models but of the faction's game plan.

Definitely agree, but it's a subtle point which not everyone sees quickly. The sheer un-aided deadliness of Khadoran models isn't always apparent until you realize how much synergy your opponents are building up to achieve the same effects, or you've taken down warjacks/warbeasts with just your warcaster, that kind of thing. I often find that to be the most fun part of my Khador games. But it can be demoralizing to have your army torn apart, even if you somehow edge out a win.

Whether the 1/2player battlebox is deceptive or not is honestly immaterial, because people are going to buy it and at the very least I know I've seen people struggle more with the Khador box evolution than any of the others. As has been said, the battlebox is not an optimized attack force, it is for teaching the basics of the game. But people like to build on the basics, and when they find themselves struggling to do so, it creates a negative experience. Especially since your warcaster's feat is negated by a 2 pt model which is a common purchase for new PoM players, is immensely hard to kill unless you're properly equipped for it and is good enough to see play beyond the BB.

I have done well with jack and MOW lists. Granted, I was limited by my army, but except for a few brutal matchups, I have done just fine without the magic/pro/cheese/use or lose units. I very much think there is a limitation in thinking that you have to cleave to things like winter guard to win or have fun. I do both without them. I play my army differently than someone who has those units, and therein lies the key. I highly dislike a formulaic approach to battle on the board and find it of very limited feasibility against competent opponents. I play to the strengths of my army, and the weaknesses of my opponent and their army.

My plan is different every time I hit the board, and I find it a very satisfying way to play.

That's good to hear, I'm glad you've had success with it. However, I would comment that I played 2-4 games a week for nearly a year, and over that time had significantly more success with our light infantry than with jack heavy lists. It's just my own experience, but I'm not cleaving to WGI/Kayazy/IFP because I read about them on the forums and immediately stopped playing any other style of Khador. I found them to be more powerful over a fairly long period of time through trial and error.

[Digilante]

Okay let’s try to come up with potential solutions to this problem.

I think Butcher1 is the gateway drug we're looking for. He's good for new players because he is simple and forgiving. He's also easy to sell to someone running too many jacks or mass man-o-war because he can run those armies as well as anyone else in Khador.

But the dirty secret is that Butcher1 is actually best at running infantry. Iron Flesh and Fury are amazing on just about any Khador unit, and his feat gets better as you increase your attack count (with most units bringing 10 attacks to the table for the price of a warjack). As they're thinking about how to expand their army mention how awesome Iron Fangs, Kayazy or Winter Guard are with the Butcher and I think the rest will fall into place.

Then again, I may only be espousing what worked for me.

[Kuarnix]

I usually recommend pVlad over Butcher....no speed buffs on Butcher means you can end up with a lot of bad times if you don't know what you're doing. Vlad skews your offense in your favor, isn't a pushover, can increase threat range and has huge personal threat range. Butcher takes a lot more skill to pilot well against people who know what they're doing. I always recommend the battlebox, Vlad, and Widowmakers as a 15 point starter unless the individual wants to run a specific caster, etc.

[Esper]

The fact that it's kept happening internationally over the years suggests there is something out there selling a false concept.

I'd attribute it more to the thought process of, if one is good, more must be better. Doesn't take someone "selling a false concept" to think like this, just human nature.

[DSW]

That's good to hear, I'm glad you've had success with it. However, I would comment that I played 2-4 games a week for nearly a year, and over that time had significantly more success with our light infantry than with jack heavy lists. It's just my own experience, but I'm not cleaving to WGI/Kayazy/IFP because I read about them on the forums and immediately stopped playing any other style of Khador. I found them to be more powerful over a fairly long period of time through trial and error.

It was a pretty rough learning curve. I do have a question for definition: Are a pair of jacks enough to constitute a jack heavy list? I normally take a pair at 25+. I also think it is a somewhat deceptive image, though no particular fault but the gestalt: people think the force is focus-starved and flailing when S&P and berserkers do just dandy together.

I'm really boggling at the boards. I like berserkers and MoW, and they are pretty roundly maligned by some of the louder voices here. A lot of the opinions here read like groupthink to me. I'm picking up some IFP, and probably I will proxy some small bases as WGI a few times as well to see if they are worth picking up, or if they are indeed so magical and awesome as people say. I'll happily integrate them if they are roundly useful.

[rivenwyrm]

It was a pretty rough learning curve. I do have a question for definition: Are a pair of jacks enough to constitute a jack heavy list?

That depends on the point cost total and the goal of the list, not the number. Two berserkers is still fewer points than Behemoth, and I don't consider myself to be running jack heavy with just Behemoth. IMO, and this is entirely subjective, jack heavy is more like Spriggan + Destroyer, which is basically 50% of your list at 35pts. Compared to how PoM often plays, which is usually 2+ heavies and possibly a light, 50% isn't even that jack heavy. Even Cygnar often runs something like a Defender + a melee beater and a hunter. Certainly 50% is low when compared to how beast heavy Circle/Legion/Skorne (and even Trolls) can play at 35. There's no distinguishable reason this needs to be the case, it simply is such due to design.

I normally take a pair at 25+. I also think it is a somewhat deceptive image, though no particular fault but the gestalt: people think the force is focus-starved and flailing when S&P and berserkers do just dandy together.

I'm really boggling at the boards. I like berserkers and MoW, and they are pretty roundly maligned by some of the louder voices here. A lot of the opinions here read like groupthink to me. I'm picking up some IFP, and probably I will proxy some small bases as WGI a few times as well to see if they are worth picking up, or if they are indeed so magical and awesome as people say. I'll happily integrate them if they are roundly useful.

Honestly, man, if you came to this thread to say how awesome you are, and how we're all just groupthinking lemmings, we get it, fine. Thanks for your "input". If you have actual tactical advice or useful strategies from your experiences, I'd be plenty glad to hear it and perhaps even pass it on to newer players in my area.

[PG_ColonelKoIron]

In 25pts I usually run 2 heavy jacks, with Doom Reavers and Widowmakers.
At 35pts I upgrade it to 3 heavy jacks, sometimes with a Koldun Lord to take one of them.

Though I have run 25 pts with 3 heavies, it can certainly work but its fairly tricky because you dont have much to block charge lanes.

[PG_LunarSol]

I don't think the battlebox is all that bad. You don't use it competitively, but it teaches the faction really well and honestly, learning to work with the Juggernaut/Destroyer taught me to play Behemoth correctly, and he's a very easy model to misplay. Sorscha is a pretty good Battlebox caster (few people get Denny level grumble grumble). She's a caster who works well in the box but still encourages you to try other casters, which is a really important part of the game, IMO.

So for me, the "break it to them" comes more from how I tell them to go from the box. Encouraging pVlad/pButcher is a big one, as is making sure their push to 25 includes some good tarpits like the WGI. The big thing is to be the voice of reason when they think "I want to try this jack instead" that says, "honestly, the Kodiak isn't really much different than a Juggernaut". As much as it seems easy to say "get Behemoth" you really have to play the Juggernaut/Destroyer for a while before you really understand WHY spending nearly twice as much, both in points and cash, makes so much more sense than buying one of our other, cheaper jacks.

New players will figure it out on their own. I did the same thing. I was going to run Jack heavy with pVlad, regardless of what people said works better. Once I got to see how it worked though I followed the well worn trail pretty easily. You just need to to play with jacks and infantry at the same time and it'll click. Why feed all my focus to this thing when I can use it to do all this stuff. I don't think this realization is a bad thing; its just important to make sure you give them an opportunity to understand in the 15-20 point range, before they've bought into the 35+ game.

[HRM]

If you genuinely don't give a toss whether you win or lose, there's lots of fun to be had running whacky Khador lists. But, if you want to pad your stats a bit... Well, the people on here really DO know their stuff. The stuff that works really well - honestly, it's almost at the point where it's not subjective anymore.