The "Fix The Mountain King Through Model Addition" Thread.

[Beckman]

OK. So here's the challenge:

Fix the Mountain King using a minimum of new models and abilities. Models that you think think we could actually get without being stupidly overpowered as a faction. So the optimal model would be ONE model and ONE ability / Animus, and wouldn't break our faction in half.

Thornspitter Troll
PC5, FA:U

SPD6 MAT5 RAT5 DEF13 ARM15 FRY3

2x P+S10 open fist
1x POW10 RNG 10 ROF2 Thorns

Stealth
When a warjack or warbeast damages Thornspitter Troll with an attack, it suffers d3 damage if Thornspitter Troll is not destroyed or removed from play as a result of the attack.

Animus
Uncanny Accuracy: Cost 1, RNG6, Target Model's Ranged Attack Rolls are boosted for this turn.


I think this would be a good start? The Thornspitter Troll would be independently good while not being too crazy awesome that everyone would have to run it in order to win. It makes the Bomber better at close range, but since it competes with Snipe, I don't think it would be required. The Blitzer would love it... Which would be a win in my book - The Blitzer seems like it needs a smidge of help. Uncanny Accuracy would be good on Jarl, but not broken. If we got a 2pt solo that could give Ancillary Attack, the potential for 2x boosted sprays would make a really good combo. At that point, we could have Janissa, KSB, Thornspitter Troll, and Ancillary Man, and we'd be difficult to approach, since the MK could spray one avenue of approach, and wall off the other. If the enemy tried a half-assed assault on TMK, he'd just spawn a lot of whelps.

Comment on my design, or add your own!

Edit: So I feel my design accomplishes not being broken pretty well, would be a useful addition to our faction outside of just buffing the mountain king, and is pretty plausible. What it doesn't do is save the mountain king with only one model. Even with the Thornspitter Troll, only one spray isn't enough to propel the mountain king to greatness.

[PG_petegrrrr]

I like it, although the animus would have to be fury 2, especially since it would work for multiple attacks. But other that that, it looks good and could help the mountain king out a bit.

[sourclams]

Yeah it's an interesting thread, and the issue that I see is that an additional support model that brings MtK up to par would put our other Dires somewhere above and beyond great.

Thornspitter, for example, would probably work better with the Sons of Bragg and 14 other points of stuff (which could include slag troll/bomber) than MtK.

A 'Dire Caller' that handed out +2 MAT would likewise make the Mulg/EBDT/Mauler pairings incredible, versus just bringing MtK up to decent, and would also reduce the value of Rok/Primal somewhat.

IMO the easiest fix would be something that scaled with base size and/or base strength, and had actual synergy with Amuck.

Pulling this one out of my nether regions:

Trollbloods Luchador:
2 pt solo, 2x P&S9 melee attacks, this model can slam (like the Ogrun Bokur)
Special ability: Mucha Lucha! - target a friendly faction warbeast. If the warbeast's next melee attack hits an enemy model, center a 5" AoE (if the attacking model is Huge-based, 3" for all other base sizes) on the target model. Make an additional attack roll against every enemy model whose base is within the AoE (this counts as a special attack). Models hit are knocked down and suffer an unboostable damage roll with POW equal to the attacking model's STR.

Pretty obvious what the intent is here; have MtK amuck, charge, boost inital attack roll, and take out a 5" swathe of infantry. The Luchador will work with any dire, but only the Huge base gets real mileage out of the ability. THis will also give him a reasonable threat range and incorporate some Control/Denial aspect that it seems most of the other huge based models possessed, (although some do it far better than others and this would be one of the better ones). It's still a 22 point module, MtK still dies like pie to alpha-ing heavies and is hugely reliant on KSB and other attendant models to keep his defensive stats up, but at least now we'd have a reason to toss him into the opponent's frontline.

[Scottagain]

A heavy, base stats comparable to the Mauler. It has hyper regeneration and has Excessive healing as an animus. Would probably need to be 10 or 11 points, possibly a character beast.

[sourclams]

I honestly believe that a new, powerful animus just dilutes MtK's effectiveness further, as you could simply stack it on 2 heavies with more boxes and better defensive stats.

[Scottagain]

Agreed. Maybe it's just me still holding out for the King to have excessive healing as his own animus.

[PG_Celedor]

Yeah, staying power seems like the one thing MtK could be better at than the other big boys (if it weren't for the low base hp and ARM, which make him easiest to kill, go figure). Something that grants excessive healing, or better yet a modified version of hyper regeneration that allows the MtK to heal d3 every time he takes damage. That would scale better with his relatively large health pool compared to our other Dires.

[Kamahin]

What if he had some other ability that all damage exceeding his armor was halved.

With so much rock in place of skin, I cannot imagine he would take as much physical pain if someone were to cut off a peice of his rock.

[Digestive]

Something in the argumentation on how the MK is bad is slightly off, I think: Often the addition of Janissa and the Stone (cool bandname btw) is seen as a 'crutch' and that the MK should do without. But honestly if you invest in 19 Points in beasts (MK or otherwise), don't you bring these models anyway? At least I do so.

[Silopolis]

Trollblood Apologist
FA: 2, PC 1, Stats as Trollses.

Whoops: Subtract 2 points from the PC of one Mountain King when you field this model.

Fix It
* Action: Target Mountain King gains +1 MAT.

Done.

[PG_thegreatblah]

Admittedly she is probably a bit strong at 3 points, but it can be blanced. She would be super effective when running with a beast. Probably she should lose flank or weaponmaster. But I think you get the idea.

Ravsa Rocksong, Beast Caller									Fel Caller
She sings to the beasts as a parent would to it's children, and the beasts obiently do her bidding. ~Greygore Boomhowler
Trollblood Trollkin Fell Caller Solo
Damage:	8
Ravsa
SPD	STR	MAT	RAT	DEF	ARM	CMD
6	7	6	6	12	15	9
FA:		C
Point Cost		3
Base Size:		Medium
Damage:		8
Ravsa
Fearless
Tough
Flank [Friendly Faction Warbeast]			When this model makes a melee attack against an enemy model within the melee range of a friendly model of the type indicated, this model gains +2 to attack rolls and gains an additional damage die.
Blood of Balasar:		When a Friendly Faction Warbeast in this model's CMD frenzies, this model can choose the warbeast's frenzy target. Blood of Balasar can only be activated once per turn.
Fell Calls -	This model can make one of the following calls any time during its activation. A friendly Faction model/unit can be affected by only one Fell Call each turn.
	•Lullaby	Remove up to 1 fury point and d3 damage from each friendly living Faction warbeast currently in this model's CMD area.
	•Steady Hand	Target Friendly Faction Warbeast in this model's CMD gains +2 RAT for one turn
Weapons
Maul [1x]			POW:	4	Fell Blast [1x]		RNG: 10	ROF: 1	AOE: 3	POW: 12
Weaponmaster			P+S:	11
Reach

[Kamahin]

I assume you meant FA:C and not FA:2 since she has a name?

[PG_thegreatblah]

I assume you meant FA:C and not FA:2 since she has a name?

Yeah I started out by making a generic beast caller using the Fel Caller Template and it evolved into a character.

Character solos are better than equally costed non-character solos usually. This being because there can only be one of course.

Side Note: I really need the RPG to come out soon AND be awesome at the same time.

[Draekon Darkstorm]

Why do her fell calls use control area when she has no FURY stat to base her control area off of?

Draekon

[Kamahin]

I don't think flank would be too powerful at 3 points since she does only have one weapon. So you get one large swing instead of the two good swings like a normal fell caller.

[PG_thegreatblah]

Why do her fell calls use control area when she has no FURY stat to base her control area off of?

Draekon

should be CMD of course, fixt

I don't think flank would be too powerful at 3 points since she does only have one weapon. So you get one large swing instead of the two good swings like a normal fell caller.

One large swing that could have 5 damage dice on the charge pretty easily. Some hits would be insane. Most would be fine.
Average Damage
2 Dice = 7 Total Average Output = 18
3 Dice = 10.5 = 21.5
4 Dice = 14 = 25
5 Dice = 17.5 = 28.5
6 DIce = 21 = 32

[bakaryu]

A warbeast with a Spiny Growth or Subdual animus would instantly make any heavy/colossal think about having a go at him.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Beast Caller is way too strong.

Blood of Balasar is like a stronger version of a warlock ability, no model in the game removes fury and heals the same target as one action, and flank generally costs you a mat and a tiny bit of pow.

Even so...she'd actually hurt the mountain king, because she would make a bomber completely amazing.

[Benopotomus]

Hmm..
Denial: Check.
Anger: Double Check after seeing Wold Wrath.
Bargaining: Where this thread is at.
Depression: Looking forward to that read.
Acceptance: 2 Months after the book is released.

I've been through the same thing with the Sluggers..

[sourclams]

Depression will kick in if/when Archangel and Mammoth have more boxes and a better statline, with more and more relevant specials.

[Hoyled]

Im wondering if the key here is the whelps. Allowing the annoying debuff to stack and maybe adding in a strenght debuff that also can stack. Call it a whelp wrangler solo. Its would be decent with normal whelps and regular dires and doubly effective on the Mountian King.

[Goris]

I don't think that adding models to the MK make him worth his points by any stretch of the imagination. It in fact highlights the opposite. Also any model with that idea in design, will actually bring the stock up in many of our other Dires who are self sufficient murder machines, provided those rules don't specify "Gargantuan". So with even more help our Dires will start to outshine him even more. So somehow I doubt we'll see much in the way of models "fixing" the Mountain King.

However, I am in the same camp as many of you. Where, I think I am missing something. Like there's got to be something we aren't seeing that is making him seem so overcosted. What that is? Who knows.

[Spume]

The Mountain King is not a 20 point model. It is in fact a 38 point model. If you can't make it arm 23 then you shouldn't field it.

[Hoyled]

Im wondering if the key here is the whelps. Allowing the annoying debuff to stack and maybe adding in a strenght debuff that also can stack. Call it a whelp wrangler solo. Its would be decent with normal whelps and regular dires and doubly effective on the Mountian King.

[Goris]

The Mountain King is not a 20 point model. It is in fact a 38 point model. If you can't make it arm 23 then you shouldn't field it.

This is patently false as he does not have to be a front line model. You aren't forced to buff up the MK to armor 23, but if you want him to have a chance in hell at not getting one rounded by the "alpha" heavies then yeah you need it. That said if you use him as a second line fighter, using the power of the spray and trying to pick off the targets that can realy hurt him you have a better chance of running him unsupported. The spray alone threatens Warcasters late game and not many can threaten him if he's full. So, if you can piece trade favorably and win the attrition game he can be potent, but he's not a front line piece unless you know your opponent can't take him off the board in a turn.

[wargrim]

Trollblood Eremit: 1Point - Trollses Stats

*Action - Get out of my lawn: Target friendly MK in this models CMD. Enemy warbeasts/jacks hitting the MK suffer D3 damage. GooL remains one round.

Send them back!: MK's in this models CMD may be forced to change a normal attack into a power attack.

[HellecticMojo]

Hmm..
Denial: Check.
Anger: Double Check after seeing Wold Wrath.
Bargaining: Where this thread is at.
Depression: Looking forward to that read.
Acceptance: 2 Months after the book is released.

I've been through the same thing with the Sluggers..

hey, atleast the sluggers are unique. They are unmodified long ranged multi wound model with a decently powered gun, there's plenty to work off of that, ua with covering fire, move and shoot d3, etc.

Problem with Mk is that it's a beatstick beast with comparable stats to our other beasts. Nothing pops out except for Spray and whelp spawning.
So we can have guided fire esque thing as an animus, or maybe grim grants deadeye, or a solo that grants cumilative arm bonus to beasts that have whelps near them. It's the only way MK will ever be superior to any of our other beasts.

[Spume]

2 Pow 19 reach attacks is pretty unique to our faction. It threatens a massive amount of board space, and if supported properly it is more durable than just about anything out there. The Wold Wrath has 6 more boxes, but would you rather have those 6 boxes or be able to take 3 less damage every attack?

[Beckman]

I like it, although the animus would have to be fury 2, especially since it would work for multiple attacks. But other that that, it looks good and could help the mountain king out a bit.

At current, I think it would be fine... I don't think there's a good reason that all of our stuff has to be zero-sum. Yes, you can gain FURY efficiency from it... But that's kindof the point. If he costs 5 points, and he's sitting there buffing other guys, he's not getting his own benifit. If your caster is doing it to himself or other beasts, they don't have Snipe, but they're more accurate. Yes, you've got 2 boosts for the price of one on a different model. I think it would be fine - barring additional models.

ZOMG, Cast it on a min unit of Scattergunners+UA. BROKEN! (I really don't think it is. At all.) They'd be like winterguard!!! Only, you know.. Tough, and DEF12 :P
Even if you took a full unit of Bushwhackers, cast it on 5 of them, and did 5, 2 man CRAs for MAT6 with an additional die to hit... I'm still not considering it busted...

Yeah it's an interesting thread, and the issue that I see is that an additional support model that brings MtK up to par would put our other Dires somewhere above and beyond great.

Not if it was a primarily Ranged buff.

Thornspitter, for example, would probably work better with the Sons of Bragg and 14 other points of stuff (which could include slag troll/bomber) than MtK.

While I certainly think it would be good with the Slag, I don't think it would necessarily be flat out better than TMK. There's a certain force multiplier of having ARM19, 48 boxes, and whelps. If you had two sprays through ancillary attack, you could shut down the right avenue of attack, and block the left with a well placed wall.

A 'Dire Caller' that handed out +2 MAT would likewise make the Mulg/EBDT/Mauler pairings incredible, versus just bringing MtK up to decent, and would also reduce the value of Rok/Primal somewhat.

Agree. There will be no melee buff that makes the mountain king better. He will lose to Mulg and the other Dires. Every time.

IMO the easiest fix would be something that scaled with base size and/or base strength, and had actual synergy with Amuck.

Pulling this one out of my nether regions:

Trollbloods Luchador:
2 pt solo, 2x P&S9 melee attacks, this model can slam (like the Ogrun Bokur)
Special ability: Mucha Lucha! - target a friendly faction warbeast. If the warbeast's next melee attack hits an enemy model, center a 5" AoE (if the attacking model is Huge-based, 3" for all other base sizes) on the target model. Make an additional attack roll against every enemy model whose base is within the AoE (this counts as a special attack). Models hit are knocked down and suffer an unboostable damage roll with POW equal to the attacking model's STR.

Pretty obvious what the intent is here; have MtK amuck, charge, boost inital attack roll, and take out a 5" swathe of infantry. The Luchador will work with any dire, but only the Huge base gets real mileage out of the ability. THis will also give him a reasonable threat range and incorporate some Control/Denial aspect that it seems most of the other huge based models possessed, (although some do it far better than others and this would be one of the better ones). It's still a 22 point module, MtK still dies like pie to alpha-ing heavies and is hugely reliant on KSB and other attendant models to keep his defensive stats up, but at least now we'd have a reason to toss him into the opponent's frontline.

I like it, but I feel like it needs more power somehow.. Every time I use it, I would be thinking about the Woldwraith's knockdown fists. :P

@ TheGreatBlah, I think that Fell Caller would be good, but we would still need an Ancilary attack somehow to make him playable. At minimum, that's 11 points worth of guys (min KSB (3), BeastCaller (3), Ancillary Man (2), and Janissa(3)). For 31 points, he'd better be the best thing since sliced bread. I feel like he might be not good enough to be 31 points, even with all the support.

If only TMK was like 17 points base, then we could just run him without support, or with support and it wouldn't be so many extra points.

[bakaryu]

Mulg with either Doomy has two POW19 reach attacks
With higher MAT
With critical smite
For 8 points less

I would rather take Mulg + Axer + Whelps than a Mountain King which makes me sad, truly and unrecoverably sad.

[Beckman]

Mulg with either Doomy has two POW19 reach attacks
With higher MAT
With critical smite
For 8 points less

I would rather take Mulg + Axer + Whelps than a Mountain King which makes me sad, truly and unrecoverably sad.

I agree. Although, in my case I would rather take a Mauler and Mulg and pay an extra point than be forced into taking Janissa and the KSB in order to keep my 20 point model from dying due to a stiff breeze.

[raizieldragon]

I like the idea of a spell/animus that grants a Troll a bonus to ARM for # of adjacent Whelps. That makes it useful for all Trolls if you take Whelps, useful for MK for free, and doubly useful for MK if you take Whelps with him.

It could be a Whelp attachment, or a support Whelp Solo.

Also, I wish everyone would remember to include the MKs free unlimited squad of Whelps that's included with him when making comparisons. Saying that Mulg is 8 points less than MK is disregarding the Whelps, whereas you can say Mulg + Whelps is 6 points less than MK, and have a better comparison basis.

[Spume]

Mulg with either Doomy has two POW19 reach attacks
With higher MAT
With critical smite
For 8 points less

I would rather take Mulg + Axer + Whelps than a Mountain King which makes me sad, truly and unrecoverably sad.

If you thought the MK was going to die Mulg is going to get splattered. Mulg does not have 2 pow19 reach initial attacks. Mulg is slower. In those situations where you want crit smite you can easily just power attack with the mountain king. Mulg can get slammed or pushed off of an objective, not the MK. There are other ways around Mulg, knock him down, throw him, push him etc. There is only one way around a MK sitting on an objective.

All that being said I don't think I would use him with either Doomie, especially not Epic, you lose too much. No goad, no refuge and Mulg just works too well to take out. But put him with Borka or Grim, both of which can give him remarkable threat ranges and have synergies to offset his greatest deficiency, his 5 mat, and he could shine. Put him with Gunnbjorn and his portable wall with boosted sprays and you can offer him obscene protection that will be nearly impossible to remove from a zone.

I think so many people got caught up with all of the doooooooom, myself included, that we didn't look at the things that we could make possible with him. He isn't an always, but he certainly is an option.

[PG_thegreatblah]

Well the cost of whelps is obvoiusly factored into his base cost of 20 so saying Mulg is 8 less than the MK is fair since the MK has whelps as a given.

[Goris]

Also, I wish everyone would remember to include the MKs free unlimited squad of Whelps that's included with him when making comparisons. Saying that Mulg is 8 points less than MK is disregarding the Whelps, whereas you can say Mulg + Whelps is 6 points less than MK, and have a better comparison basis.

The problem with this is if you opponent one rounds him then those whelps were worth nothing, now that are just hanging out. They might be in the way, but they aren't a 20pt threat on the table. Which is why pretty much everyone is ignoring the fact they exist because a smart opponent won't just try and nickle and dime MK, because it won't work. Also if it wasn't easy for the big names to kill him in an activation that statement might hold water, but as it is, MK is too fragile against things that hit hard.

[Spume]

The problem with this is if you opponent one rounds him then those whelps were worth nothing, now that are just hanging out. They might be in the way, but they aren't a 20pt threat on the table. Which is why pretty much everyone is ignoring the fact they exist because a smart opponent won't just try and nickle and dime MK, because it won't work. Also if it wasn't easy for the big names to kill him in an activation that statement might hold water, but as it is, MK is too fragile against things that hit hard.

So, these whelps can't help your other beasts? Do they not still block charge lanes and give -1 attack to living models?

[sourclams]

WHAT other beasts? The pyre troll? You spent 20 points on the Mountain King. Maybe, maybe you have a secondary Mauler or EBDT that was an animus battery for MtK, but if 20 points of your list bites the dust, your issue is going to be fury generation to fuel your warlock, not fury management.

'MtK is dead but lol 7 whelps!' is not a balance argument.

[Spume]

WHAT other beasts? The pyre troll? You spent 20 points on the Mountain King. Maybe, maybe you have a secondary Mauler or EBDT that was an animus battery for MtK, but if 20 points of your list bites the dust, your issue is going to be fury generation to fuel your warlock, not fury management.

'MtK is dead but lol 7 whelps!' is not a balance argument.

Wasn't a balance argument, I was merely stating that they weren't useless. If the main issue with the MK is that he isn't survivable this can be said of ALL colossals/gargantuans. He will certainly outlive Wold Wrath in most circumstances. If you allow your 20 point investment to get 1 rounded its a matter of poor play, not poor rules.

[sourclams]

Name 5 circumstances where Mountain King outlives Wold Wrath.

[Goris]

No, but at that point you paid 20 points for however many attacks worth of whelps? Was that a good investment?

edit:
Ok, I need to step back here, I'm not directly trying to attack you Spume so I'm sorry if there was any perceived hostility. Generally I am the guy who wants to see the good in every model but let's be realistic here.