The "Fix The Mountain King Through Model Addition" Thread.

[sourclams]

Go back a year and everyone hated pDoomdhaper too. He wasnt worth taking either.

This is patently false. I've been a huge pDoomy advocate ever since I started playing TB, and pDoomy has often been one of my go-tos in any vs Hordes matchup. Many others who playtested his T4 came to the same conclusion; matchup prone, but powerful in certain, common contexts.

Before we knew anything about MtK other than 'probably a melee heavy with a ranged attack' I actually started a thread surmising whether an all-in-one heavy would put pDoomy over the top, competitively speaking. Serious.

pDoomy was an underdog that looked bad on paper, but who has just enough synergy and "special unlocks" within his tier to be good. The playtest showed this. Flanzer justified the general sentiment when he took the final round of a tournament vs. Neutralyze. pDoomy still has flaws, but they are contextually bound.

MtK looks bad on paper, and the playtest has shown the model to be bad on the table as well. THAT is the difference. THAT is why calling a spade a spade is not DOOOOM, as the white knights have been valiantly trying to "disprove" without any recourse to facts, context, or logic, the sole exception being the one guy who actually made a list and tried to discuss the merits of the model within that list. Everything else has amounted to MAT9 DEF11 P&S22 ARM 23!!1omg!1

[PG_thegreatblah]

Yeah Clams but the general population on the forums here hasn't been on your side until recently.

[Trollicious]

General opinion on pDoomshaper didn't swing around after 2 months of playtesting. It took some time with his Theme force showing up in tournament play before people came around.

All I've been saying is that it's still premature to pass judgement on a model that hasn't even been officially released. Yes, it has been tested, and that is different than theory, but it still doesn't amount to hundreds of games played in tournaments across multiple metas.

[Beckman]

OK the Nyss are a nice addition, and bring some shooting to the list. I'm not sure I like multiple 10-man units with Borka though, as it's tough for him to catch everyone with Mosh pit, and you find yourself wanting to have Iron Flesh on everyone.

So the basic idea would be to run the Nyss with Ironflesh in front, four wide, and six back. Possibly three wide and 4 mid, 3 back if the matchup requires it. Fenns are in the back. You pressure the enemy to engage the Nyss, who are spread far apart so that AOEs cannot effectively catch a lot of them.

When you decide to engage, you activate the Nyss first, shoot and melee and leave charge lanes for your 13-15" Fenn charges. Fell Call and charge with Fenns. Don't hesitate to Mosh Pit or rotate Iron Flesh as is needed for you on that turn. Probably save feat for your beast charges. When you have a beast or Jack, knock it down and, bombs on it and see what happens.

The Nyss really help out against Bile Thralls and easy-to-hit trash infantry.

Fennblades with IF and concealment from the chronicler (mu original list) can close at def17/arm16 vs shooting, and have a much deeper charging threat range. Nyss are great, and have awesome synergy with Borka, but I'm not sure I like them in the list. I prefer them with a Bomber in the list, so that I can tighten up their formation with Girded. Def18 and immune to blast can give opponents fits. In this list though, with IF on the Nyss, it screams: "focus shooting on the def12 fennblades" to your opponent.

I think they'll be concentrating on the Nyss in front. They can't probably get to a position to shoot the Fenns, as the Fenns are 15" threat with feat, they will be staggered to have vengeance if the front 2-3 are killed, and the Nyss are inbetween the shooting models and them. I would prefer to keep the feat for RoK and the Mauler, though.

I have NO QUALMS about running DEF18 Nyss into the other guy's Gunmages and seeing what happens.

Janissa is something I'm not considering either as I feel there are better places or her, and my list building always considers a multi-list tournament format. If I were to bring Janissa, I would likely go down the EBDT route for armor stacking. Not just for the MK, but for Borka as well.

My opinion, and possibly incorrect, is that the only thing that COULD make TMK alright is that wall. He simply is too vulnerable with the amount of frontage that he has VS his boxes and lack of infantry that can get in the way. Iron Flesh helps with the staying power of infantry, which is why I think he might be a good choice to get more use out of TMK. I still think the wall is... manditory.

If comparing to the previous list, I would say the lack of reach/pathfinder on the heavies can be a setback. It's certainly jammier, but I think adding more fenns only contributes to the overcrowding problems I mentioned earlier.

I think you're overestimating the crowding of 10 small based models and 13 medium based ones. Remember, the Nyss will start with IF, can activate first, and take the free strike if necessary for the team... The enemy doesn't generally have great odds to hit anyway. Mat 7 needs a 9.

More Fenns will absorb shooting better, but Nyss up front can wind up getting in the way and not offering up as many vengeance opportunities. More than that though, it lacks the objective holding power of the immovable MK. The multiple heavies are actually considerable squishier than the MK now too, as you have omitted the KSB. Mauler and Rok now have 56 health behind ARM 18, as opposed to 48 behind ARM 21. Unless something is killing you in 2 hits, the MK has the edge here with an extra 3 ARM.

Right, but notice that I volunteered for less ARM by taking 4 Fenns for 3 points instead of the KSB. If you want the durability, pick the KSB.. Then you're 56 health at ARM20, which unless they're killing you with 9+ attacks (which could happen) is more durable.

The way I see the list, I prefer the bodies over the SSC or KSB. More vengeance moves, more potential for Mosh Pit, which makes the Heavies' job easier.

I dislike that TMK is ONE MODEL in this list, because if you knockdown something scary (Nightmare), then charge and kill it with TMK, the DJ countercharge eats TMK (unless you have a well placed wall! ). Whereas your total "risk" in a location is 1 heavy - Rok or Mauler if you go with the 2x heavy hitter plan.

Both Rok AND the Mauler make the Bomber Melee competent, which is an added benefit to more diverse beast the list.

I'm not going to bother arguing this anymore, it's just degenerated into a flame fest. I'm glad Trollicious was able to break through and get a dialog going, so there is hope yet. Out of curiosity Beckman, what's your local store? Showcase or do you go down to ATF?

Actually, Redcap's. It's located at 38th street & Lancaster, Philadelphia, PA 19147.

We have a great community, and WM/Hordes nights is on Monday. Although pickup games are had throughout the week. I'm around on Mondays, although I usually only get one game in because I arrive at 7:00pm or later due to my work commute.

I agree with Spume, this is early days yet. I too was disappointed by the stats, and felt a little underwhelmed, however while it wont be the 'dominate everything on the table' piece we all hoped and dreamed for, it still might end up being pretty damn good - if not game breaking.

I don't think ANYONE is arguing that new models can't improve his viability.

But he does suck right now. Until he gets help.

No its not as good as the best Character Heavy Warbeast in the Game. Lets move on from that argument. I feel it is remarkably similar to the grizzling on the Cryx forums that Gaspy3 isnt as good as Gaspy2.

Mulg is not the best warbeast in the game. He just isn't. Tiberion beats him every which way. Mulg is great. He's top 5, MAYBE top 3. But Tiberion is best.

I think you're operating from the assumption that some models that we have are overpowered. With small exception, I think this is not the case. eMadrak and Janissa are probably the two most overpowered models that we have. Everything else... Is pretty balanced. If a 20 point model falls behind Tiberion with a caster buff (DEF WARD). That's pretty bad.

He never was going to be. When you are spoilt, everything else looks bad in comparison, even when its not. Please dont start arguing with this point, its been covered already.

Again, I disagree that we are spoiled for options. Explain to me why you think this is the case.

My main reason for posting is to say that Spume is trying to be positive in a hurricane of negativity. I think he's been well spoken and articulate. Nicely done.

I don't understand why you think that when people are saying a model compares poorly to other models, that that's an attack on Spume? We're not on a witch hunt against Spume or TMK... The community has put the model on the table, run it through the paces and we're not getting why it is what it is.

Go back a year and everyone hated pDoomdhaper too. He wasnt worth taking either.

This is just not true. The prevailing opinion was that he was bad, but there was a vocal minority (call it 30-40%) of people who thought he was good or could be good. In fairness, the metagame was different. Metagame shifts due to new casters and toys, and he got more viable. I thought and still think that pDoomshaper is a tier 2 warlock that has REALLY GOOD and REALLY BAD matchups. Purification just wins games against certain casters. But his tier force loses to anti-magic.

When confronted with people that have actually put the model on the table and gave their experiences, he stated that they were calling DOOM.

I think it takes a bit for people to get used to the fact that EVERY COMMENT that they make is indellibly recorded on the forum and everything that they say can and will be interpreted, even if it wasn't directed at them specifically. EX, You're at a party and you have an inside joke with someone, and three people nearby are like, "Wow, that was a dickish thing that he just said". They get irritated but ignore it and move on with their lives. Forums PERSIST and allow people to comment back days or weeks later. Let's just chalk it up as Spume taking solidarity with others that agree with him and let it go.

The MtK should never be ARM 23 - if you have designed your list such that the MtK can get to ARM 23 you are going to have serious issues. You have lopsided your list to an extraordinary amount and it doesn't work like you would think. Let me tell you a secret - from first hand experience mind you, confirmed afterwords by serious thought and running the numbers. Mulg is more survivable than the MtK - particularly in the context of a beast brick. Not Mulg + another heavy, or Mulg + anything else. Mulg by himself. I am fairly certain the same thing goes for the Earthborn, and while I haven't run the numbers, probably a Mauler too.
How can this be, you say? MtK is Arm 23 with more boxes - that is by definition more than Mulg. Let me explain. There are two primary issues - Def 9 and 5" base size. The second is the biggest one, but the first is an issue too. The 5" base size simply means that more models are going to get into melee with him. People talk about the wall like the best benefit is the +2 Arm from Elemental Communion. This is simply not so - the best benefit is that it is a large swath of real estate in front of key models that enemy models can't hang out in, and non-reach models can't attack over. The second best benefit is a toss up between the +defense and the +armor from elemental communion. But Mulg is only Def 11 you say? Guess how much less often a Mat 7-8 model hits a Def 13 model compared to a Def 9 model. One to three attacks. Guess how many attacks you need to miss to let Mulg survive unexpectedly? Guess how much less often a Mat doesn't matter what non-reach model hits Mulg. The MtK cannot hide behind the wall, which means that Bronzeback will get there and doesn't give two craps about how much armor the MtK has.

I can confirm this, from both my limited playtesting and theorycrafting. As a sidenote, The Happy Anarchist is a good theorycrafter and does his playtesting seriously.. I listen when he posts things and try to process it thoroughly. I think his other comments in that post about TMK were spot on.

(omitted for brevity)....That is why arm 23 on a single target just doesn't have the same impact on the table as it does in theory.

Yep, that all sounded about right. Skorne and Cryx are two factions that I don't relish the idea of trying to rely on ARM to keep me safe.

Also, I would like to point out that technically, YOU are the one jumping to conclusions.

This made my morning.

[Beckman]

General opinion on pDoomshaper didn't swing around after 2 months of playtesting. It took some time with his Theme force showing up in tournament play before people came around.

All I've been saying is that it's still premature to pass judgement on a model that hasn't even been officially released. Yes, it has been tested, and that is different than theory, but it still doesn't amount to hundreds of games played in tournaments across multiple metas.

I just want to point out... That my opinion changed when I BOUGHT THE THEME FORCE, which is $160. Most people, I wager, have not proxied and played it. And that 1 month worth of playtesting NEVER HAPPENED. EVERYONE loves the Mountain King's model, and people want to playtest it.

The levels of playtesting are completely different. pDoomy was so ill-regarded that the people who playtested him were like, "Yeah, he can be good." and the other people were like, "Yeah, right. Win something and I'll talk to you. Borka's working fine, thanks."

[Beckman]

Also, about the pDoomshaper discussion, I give you:

A PORTAL TO ONE YEAR AGO

Edit: It's an interesting thread, I promise. I have a pDoomy evaluation in there as a bonus :P

[PeregrineP]

Honestly, I'm not really that hung up on the MK's survivability. I think he's a bit behind the other colossals but I feel like I can semi make up for that in play-style. What I have trouble with is that I can't count on him to actually hit things. If I have 20 points of my list miss 1-2 attacks, I basically haven't accomplished anything on my turn with half or more of my army's points. That represents too big of a risk to depend on. On the flip side, if I pour all my resources/support into trying to make sure he hits, I could accomplish the same or better via sheer volume of attacks I could get with 20 points of just about anything else.

[PG_thegreatblah]

Probably it's time to let this one ride for a while.

[Trollicious]

Probably it's time to let this one ride for a while.

One way or another, this will be an interesting thread to look back on a year from now.

[sourclams]

Very true. And, for the record, I will be THE HAPPIEST PLAYER HERE if I have to eat an archidon-sized crow and MtK becomes a great addition to the stable with some release down the road.

[Beckman]

Very true. And, for the record, I will be THE HAPPIEST PLAYER HERE if I have to eat an archidon-sized crow and MtK becomes a great addition to the stable with some release down the road.

I agree with that... I am going to own that model when it's released. I would rather be 100% wrong and be playing with TMK... We could have all kinds of fun... Spraying Bane Thralls, smashing Avatars... Ect.

If eeGrim gives Snap Fire to TMK, and eeGrim also debuffs DEF, TMK might be good with him... Basically anytime you can get a 10" spray with decent POW and do it twice with a RAT boost the model doing it almost automatically becomes at least passable...

[Crate123]

Why dont all the colossals and gargantuans (especially mountain king) have bulldoze ? that would be so appropriate and immensely useful.
I too hope that either Im dead wrong regarding the mountain king or something new shows up that makes him good, its such a beautiful model that I would love to own, I just cant justify the price atm.

[PG_TrollSlayer]

In the art it shows the MtK tossing a Woldwarden over his shoulder, so maybe Pitch or Crit Pitch on his fists? And MAT/RAT 6 of course

[Beckman]

The Ranged Caller
3PC, SPD5 MAT6 RAT6 DEF12 ARM15 CMD9
8 Boxes, Fearless, Tough

P+S10 Axe
Handcannon RNG12 POW12 AOE-

*Action: MARK THE TARGET - Ranged attacks made by Friendly Faction Models against Enemy Models within CMD of this model are at +2 to hit.

1/turn (same as Fell Caller):
Target friendly faction model gains Snap Fire

OR

Target friendly faction model gains Bushwhack

OR

Enemy Models within this model's CMD lose stealth.


It would:
Fix some weaknesses with our faction shooting units. Scattergunners would become much better at functional RAT7. It would plug some holes with our shooting lists, enabling us to deal with Stealth. And the Blitzer and the Bomber would find new utility by threatening a flurry of bombs against single wound models. TMK would uniquely benefit, as 10" sprays are almost certainly all going to get the +2 to hit from the Mark, and Snap Fire+Kill Shot could lead to some good sprays. KSB, Janissa, and The Ranged Caller would be good times as a 9 pt buff package, you still have 27 points or so to play with afterwards.. which could work out.

Bushwhackers at +2 to hit could be pretty decent, actually.. Although you might lose the Ranged Caller if you didn't eliminate whatever you were marking.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Also, about the pDoomshaper discussion, I give you:

A PORTAL TO ONE YEAR AGO

Edit: It's an interesting thread, I promise. I have a pDoomy evaluation in there as a bonus :P

Hooray, my one comment on pDoomy is still accurate! I was pretty sure I hadn't ever slammed him, but you never know what stupid thing you will say at 2 am some morning, lol

[Ana Su]

Ok, let's ease up a little here.

To clarify,

I'm not saying ARM is the way to go, but it is an option, should the need arise.

I'm not concluding that the MtK is either useless or amazing, I'm just saying that we should hold off on condemning it.

I'm not saying that everyone that has been criticizing it is a doom-sayer. There are some valid critiques to make, and I do appreciate the testing that has been done.

I just think that despite this testing, it is still relatively early to be passing such heavy judgment on a model to the point that we feel the need for a new model to fix it.

This is all I was trying to say also. Perhaps Trolliscious has just worded it better. I'm sure all of you doing the playtesting are all amazing playtesters (not being sarcastic here), however, testing by a couple of people in their own small meta's does not make for a comprehensive complete and certain result. People coming out and saying that the MK will 'never be competitive' is a little premature at this stage.

[Ana Su]

Removed by author

[Coldblooded3k]

I'm not going to post a big list of things on the MK because after reading just about all this(tried skipped the Heat) I doubt I could say anything that hasn't already been said, but for the most part it seems the MK became the Frankenstein for Gargantuans. Biggest test dummy ever.

At least the model looks cool... maybe in 5+ years when/if it gets an update it'll be worth his weight on the field.

[PeregrineP]

bad model is bad.
dead horse is dead.

I'll be playing the MK as soon as I finish assembly until the frustration with performance out-weighs the excitement of putting the model on the table.

[PG_Viper114]

Ooooooooh nooooooooo...

I just got the Colossals book, and reading each of the Colossals just makes my heart sink even more for the Mountain King.

-All of the Colossals have MAT 6. WHY DOES MOUNTAIN KING ONLY HAVE FIVE?!
-Aside from the Kraken, all of the Colossals have more STR than the Mountain King.
-Aside from the Kraken, all of the Colossals have at least P+S melee weapons with at least 20 or more. The Kraken has 18 which gets increased with corpse tokens. Mountain King is stuck at P+S 19.
-All Colossals have at least two ranged weapons, upwards to 4. The Mountain King has only 1 that can be fired once.
-Need I go on about the overall HP?

There's no way a Mountain King can go toe to toe with ANY of the Colossals at all. This is...just awful. I'd be less upset if the Mountain King got STR 16 and MAT 6 with nothing else changed, but it's obvious once PP sets a statline, it will never change until a new edition releases. I am really disappointed, and now I'm not even sure I WANT a Mountain King. I need to figure out how I'm going to take out Colossals without a Gargantuan...

[PG_joedj]

I've played my (half-painted now, custom based) Mountain King 3 times so far. With Gunny, pDoomie, eDoomie.
I won every game. MK survived all three games. MK won the game with a boosted spray on KD warcaster in 1 game.
I primarily concentrated on maximizing MKs survival, KSB + EBDT, using existing terrain for ARM boost/SPD boost.
Used my KSB scribes/other troopers to limit the number of charge lanes to ensure insufficient opposing models would be able to charge/attack/table the MK in any one turn.
The MK attracts a lot of attention. My EBDT was forgotten in one game and charged forward to whack a warcaster in one game.

I'll be continuing MK play with each warlock to see how long I can go without a loss. I'm not THAT good, but if my tactical moves are better than my opponents' I think I can make the MK work. Maybe not at Masters level, but at the venue level, which is most of my play, I think MK's gonna make a stellar attractor model, and fun on the field.

[McNs]

(shameless plug)

My thoughts on why Mountain King are in a long-winded post (my first post, at that) over on Trollbloodscrum:

http://www.trollbloodscrum.com/2012/...s-sub-par.html

In brief: Mountain King is certainly bad, but he only highlights the problems Colossals/Gargantuans have generally.

[cryptomancer]

I've been following this thread and watched while Spume (whom I have never heard of before this thread) has tried to be reasonable and optimistic. He hasnt got upset or angry despite the fact that everyone is tearing him and his arguments to shreds. I agree with Spume, this is early days yet. I too was disappointed by the stats, and felt a little underwhelmed, however while it wont be the 'dominate everything on the table' piece we all hoped and dreamed for, it still might end up being pretty damn good - if not game breaking. No its not as good as the best Character Heavy Warbeast in the Game. Lets move on from that argument. I feel it is remarkably similar to the grizzling on the Cryx forums that Gaspy3 isnt as good as Gaspy2. He never was going to be. When you are spoilt, everything else looks bad in comparison, even when its not. Please dont start arguing with this point, its been covered already. My main reason for posting is to say that Spume is trying to be positive in a hurricane of negativity. I think he's been well spoken and articulate. Nicely done.
Go back a year and everyone hated pDoomdhaper too. He wasnt worth taking either.

A thought: why is being positive inherently more valuable or worthy than being negative?

Especially if (and you may want to consider this) Spume's wrong?

Not to say that he necessarily is, and no to attempt to champion negativity, but while your post is certainly in good spirits and kind and friendly, I'm still left curious as to why being an optimist is itself some kind of achievement. It doesn't, to my mind, actually lend weight to an argument.

-crypto

[sourclams]

I need to figure out how I'm going to take out Colossals without a Gargantuan...

??

Mulg/Mauler/KSB UA. With eDoomy for the free charge and affinity attack the Mulgasaurus boxes any of the Colossals in 1 round, on average, even with buffs.

The hardest-to-kill Colossal will probably be Galleon due to the Wrong Eye/Snapjaw/Bull Snapper combo putting Spiny on it. 5d3+ whatever shooting damage he takes on the way in definitely has a chance of blowing out his spirit before he seals the deal.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I've played my (half-painted now, custom based) Mountain King 3 times so far. With Gunny, pDoomie, eDoomie.
I won every game. MK survived all three games. MK won the game with a boosted spray on KD warcaster in 1 game.
I primarily concentrated on maximizing MKs survival, KSB + EBDT, using existing terrain for ARM boost/SPD boost.
Used my KSB scribes/other troopers to limit the number of charge lanes to ensure insufficient opposing models would be able to charge/attack/table the MK in any one turn.
The MK attracts a lot of attention. My EBDT was forgotten in one game and charged forward to whack a warcaster in one game.

I'll be continuing MK play with each warlock to see how long I can go without a loss. I'm not THAT good, but if my tactical moves are better than my opponents' I think I can make the MK work. Maybe not at Masters level, but at the venue level, which is most of my play, I think MK's gonna make a stellar attractor model, and fun on the field.

I want to be clear that it is not my intent to denigrate you or pick apart your results. Full honesty can you give me some of what your lists looked like and what the games went like, even in brief terms. That is completely contradictory to the experiences I have had with it and I want to see where the differences are. I noticed you mentioned that the KSB scribes were able to run around in front of the MtK - did you find that put the stone in danger? Was that worth it, did the scribes cause enough of a roadbump? How did they get out in front, or were they playing primarily to the side of the MtK? I'm having a hard time seeing what it was like on the table because it is a completely different way of using the stone than I am used to other than the very very late game.

[PG_Goldstep]

Also, about the pDoomshaper discussion, I give you:

A PORTAL TO ONE YEAR AGO

Edit: It's an interesting thread, I promise. I have a pDoomy evaluation in there as a bonus :P

Hooray, my one comment on pDoomy is still accurate! I was pretty sure I hadn't ever slammed him, but you never know what stupid thing you will say at 2 am some morning, lol

How much that changes and how much stays the same. Haley2 isn't as common; lately it's all about Nemo3. But Scavy, Denny1, and Denny2, showing often in Cryx, all look at eMaddy or Borka and chuckle evilly. Meanwhile my trust Doom1 who has been my homeboy since Mark1, stomps them. Won $50 at a tourney this last weekend that way. (I'm finally getting some runshapers!)

Oh and I was reminded tonight that last year when someone suggested I would change my mind about the Warwagon once it was out, I laughed at them so hard I had to sit down to keep from blacking out.

I still say that unless someone hands me a free battle engine or gargantuan, I will never be able to own one and while that really helps the ability to not be as disappointed, I find myself wondering why that spray is clearly intended to save the day.

[raizieldragon]

I guess the only thing I will say is that the MK does seem pretty bland compared to the other Garg/Colossals I've seen. Granted I've only seen the stats for the Conquest and Stormwall and seen the Woldwrath hinted at, so not a whole lot to compare it to. But between that and PG_Viper114's brief comparison, I'd say that it definitely seems like MK got the short end of the stick.

I'm not saying one way or the other that it's a bad model. I still plan to have two and run them as much as possible, just because I love the look of almost all the Garg/Colossals that I've seen (the Archangel even tipped the scale for me and made me want to make a LoE army). However, I can understand when Troll players are upset at what they got. I suppose there's always hope that their 'lock turns out to be the best one in the book to help balance out the content. After all, if you don't like MK, you get Mulg, or some other combination of heavies if non-character required. Personally, I say why not 2 MK AND Mulg, but I'm a little crazy and have no idea how to play this game competitively, so please don't respond with "that's a horrible list and here's 3 paragraphs of why you're an idiot".

[Beckman]

I guess the only thing I will say is that the MK does seem pretty bland compared to the other Garg/Colossals I've seen. Granted I've only seen the stats for the Conquest and Stormwall and seen the Woldwrath hinted at, so not a whole lot to compare it to. But between that and PG_Viper114's brief comparison, I'd say that it definitely seems like MK got the short end of the stick.

The Woldwraith spoiler was in NQ43, so we have actual stats for it...

That they could be the same Pointcost is mind boggling to me. Woldwraith is +1 MAT, same P+S, and causes Knockdown in a 4" template on his fists. He has +1 ARM (or -1 ARM if you bring the KSB with TMK), +8 boxes, and Spellward. His gun is pretty handy... And his animus gives magic attack rolls an additional die to hit on models within 10" of the casting model. It's absolutely BRUTAL with Druids and Blackclads.

I'm not saying one way or the other that it's a bad model. I still plan to have two and run them as much as possible, just because I love the look of almost all the Garg/Colossals that I've seen (the Archangel even tipped the scale for me and made me want to make a LoE army). However, I can understand when Troll players are upset at what they got. I suppose there's always hope that their 'lock turns out to be the best one in the book to help balance out the content. After all, if you don't like MK, you get Mulg, or some other combination of heavies if non-character required. Personally, I say why not 2 MK AND Mulg, but I'm a little crazy and have no idea how to play this game competitively, so please don't respond with "that's a horrible list and here's 3 paragraphs of why you're an idiot".

Generally people don't pick people apart when they're talking about playing models in a non-competitive sense... It's when people are like, "This is a good list. Better than other options" that people start talking about whether that's the case.

If you took two Mountain Kings and Mulg, that would be an ARMspam list, but I think you would probably lose to lists with heavy hitting power and more models than you.

[wargrim]

That they could be the same Pointcost is mind boggling to me. Woldwraith is +1 MAT, same P+S, and causes Knockdown in a 4" template on his fists. He has +1 ARM (or -1 ARM if you bring the KSB with TMK), +8 boxes, and Spellward. His gun is pretty handy... And his animus gives magic attack rolls an additional die to hit on models within 10" of the casting model. It's absolutely BRUTAL with Druids and Blackclads.

Woldwrath has probably magical fists, too. While it's not confirmed, every Wold till now has magical attacks. Judging from that, possibly even his ranged attack is magical.

[Beckman]

By my numbers, if you're going from =Dice to Dice+2, the most common scenarios with a buffed Mulg or Mountain King, Mulg does between 25-48% more damage if you're just talking reach attacks, and 40-67% more damage between DEF12 and DEF14, if you're counting his non-reach attack.

The best value for Mulg, statistically is 13, followed by DEF14.

Between =Dice and Dice+2, this results in a difference of between 8 and 14 points of damage, depending your Dice=/+ numbers, the defense you're trying to hit, and whether you're comparing the non-reach Mulg attack.

DEF12, Dice+2 is 36 dmg (TMK) vs 50.8 (Mulg)
DEF13, Dice+2 is 26 dmg (TMK) vs 43.7 (Mulg)

What it boils down to is this:
Do not expect the Mountain King to kill more than one Jack. Even with Buffs. Don't do it. Mulg will be able to Kill one Jack and HURT ANOTHER ONE SEVERELY.

The Mountain King Can't kill an undamaged heavy jack or warbeast when it buffs its DEF in any way, unless TMK is under a to-hit buff. Once TMK gets to needing 8s, EVEN AT DICE+2, he will do just 26 damage on average, which is unable to generally kill a heavy warjack.

Ghetorix with eBaldur's ARM buff is an unsolvable problem for the Mountain King, whereas Mulg can take him out. Tiberion also, at DEF13 ARM23 is also not really manageable.

At even dice, DEF12, TMK deals 28 damage on average to a heavy. He needs Dice+1 on a DEF12 heavy in order to reliably hunt it. So bring a Pyre, at least. Possibly a Mauler. Let me know if you have different numbers than that... since it's sort of important to be accurate with these sorts of things...

[Spume]

By my numbers, if you're going from =Dice to Dice+2, the most common scenarios with a buffed Mulg or Mountain King, Mulg does between 25-48% more damage if you're just talking reach attacks, and 40-67% more damage between DEF12 and DEF14, if you're counting his non-reach attack.

The best value for Mulg, statistically is 13, followed by DEF14.

Between =Dice and Dice+2, this results in a difference of between 8 and 14 points of damage, depending your Dice=/+ numbers, the defense you're trying to hit, and whether you're comparing the non-reach Mulg attack.

DEF12, Dice+2 is 36 dmg (TMK) vs 50.8 (Mulg)
DEF13, Dice+2 is 26 dmg (TMK) vs 43.7 (Mulg)

What it boils down to is this:
Do not expect the Mountain King to kill more than one Jack. Even with Buffs. Don't do it. Mulg will be able to Kill one Jack and HURT ANOTHER ONE SEVERELY.

The Mountain King Can't kill an undamaged heavy jack or warbeast when it buffs its DEF in any way, unless TMK is under a to-hit buff. Once TMK gets to needing 8s, EVEN AT DICE+2, he will do just 26 damage on average, which is unable to generally kill a heavy warjack.

Ghetorix with eBaldur's ARM buff is an unsolvable problem for the Mountain King, whereas Mulg can take him out. Tiberion also, at DEF13 ARM23 is also not really manageable.

At even dice, DEF12, TMK deals 28 damage on average to a heavy. He needs Dice+1 on a DEF12 heavy in order to reliably hunt it. So bring a Pyre, at least. Possibly a Mauler. Let me know if you have different numbers than that... since it's sort of important to be accurate with these sorts of things...

Borka with Mosh pit can help mitigate this. Charge 2/3 fens depending on charge vectors at mat 8 under mosh pit, fairly decent chance of one hitting. Then go in with MK, he also loses unyielding being knocked down. Knocking down Ghetorix, or any high arm model with unyielding, is often the way to go.

There are ways around single high def targets. I'm not looking for arguments here, I'm done with all of that, but there are ways to mitigate shortcomings.

[PG_Celedor]

There are ways around single high def targets. I'm not looking for arguments here, I'm done with all of that, but there are ways to mitigate shortcomings.

Kriel Warriors are going to be my MtK's bff. In addition to the great screening they provide, those Cabers will work wonders for getting the most punch of the MtK. Stone in the back, Cabers in the front, that's how I like my MtK sammich!

[PG_thegreatblah]

A thought: why is being positive inherently more valuable or worthy than being negative?

-crypto

Because being positive builds up and being negative tears down. It is almost always better to build up than it is to tear down. The trick is finding a way to build up even when you don't agree with another person's point of view. This is especially difficult in an online forum where no inflection is able to heard and folks can hide behind the realtive anonymity of the internet.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Kriel Warriors are going to be my MtK's bff. In addition to the great screening they provide, those Cabers will work wonders for getting the most punch of the MtK. Stone in the back, Cabers in the front, that's how I like my MtK sammich!

Interested observation I've made in the few games I've played big MK:

I also immediately went to the kriel warriors to help keep stuff off the MK. I don't remember exactly what I played, but I also had a mauler, an axer, the KSB, and maybe a fell caller. The point is that the kriel warriors got absolutely blown off the table in a single turn. My hypothesis is that, because the Mountain King really is less of an offensive worry than Mulg, my list effectively had one less big threat that my opponent had to worry about, so they were able to just go to town on the kriels, leaving the MK awfully exposed for the next round.

Just an interesting anecdote.
Interested observation I've made in the few games I've played big MK:

I also immediately went to the kriel warriors to help keep stuff off the MK. I don't remember exactly what I played, but I also had a mauler, an axer, the KSB, and maybe a fell caller. The point is that the kriel warriors got absolutely blown off the table in a single turn. My hypothesis is that, because the Mountain King really is less of an offensive worry than Mulg, my list effectively had one less big threat that my opponent had to worry about, so they were able to just go to town on the kriels, leaving the MK awfully exposed for the next round.

Just an interesting anecdote.

[Beckman]

Borka with Mosh pit can help mitigate this.

He surely can, as can any warlock that debuffs DEF. MAT VS DEF being relative, Primal / KD effects and DEF debuffs on the enemy will correspondingly increase TMK's damage output. In the case of KD, past what you could expect with Mulg most of the time.

Charge 2/3 fens depending on charge vectors at mat 8 under mosh pit, fairly decent chance of one hitting. Then go in with MK, he also loses unyielding being knocked down. Knocking down Ghetorix, or any high arm model with unyielding, is often the way to go.

Right. Generically, against the Ghetorix this is the way to go. In my example that I mentioned, I was talking about with eBaldur's damage buff, which prevents KD and therefore Unyielding can't be taken away. Pretty much the only way to get around that is Grim, possibly Carnage and Wild Aggression. (Purification does not work, since it is an Until End of Turn buff).

There are ways around single high def targets. I'm not looking for arguments here, I'm done with all of that, but there are ways to mitigate shortcomings.

I absolutely agree that if you want to choose casters and/or allocate more resources to the Mountain King in order to do more damage with him, that you can.

Mulg does not require the same level of attention. Mulg doesn't have TMK's non-damage related benefits.

But I just wanted to make it clear what MAT5 really translates into, even with P+S19 fists.

Because being positive builds up and being negative tears down. It is almost always better to build up than it is to tear down. The trick is finding a way to build up even when you don't agree with another person's point of view. This is especially difficult in an online forum where no inflection is able to heard and folks can hide behind the realtive anonymity of the internet.

While that's true with people, I disagree when it comes to models. False optimism makes new players feel bad when they can't emulate the success that people enjoy in non-competitive environments with "fun lists". If you can't get an accurate bead on what models are effective as a new player, I think you're going to end up feeling, "Why can't -I- win?", when the problem might actually not be with the player, but rather with their listbuilding skills due to lack of theorycrafting ability.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Because being positive builds up and being negative tears down. It is almost always better to build up than it is to tear down. The trick is finding a way to build up even when you don't agree with another person's point of view. This is especially difficult in an online forum where no inflection is able to heard and folks can hide behind the realtive anonymity of the internet.

The trick is that positive and negative is a false dichotemy. Critique is not negative. Something you don't agree with is not negative.

People saying a model is bad is not negative, it is simply a critique.

The problem is, that notion makes it hard to argue against certain things people may not like, so the internets turns it into a much less complex "positive/negative, good/bad" scenario, which is both false and silly.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Borka with Mosh pit can help mitigate this. Charge 2/3 fens depending on charge vectors at mat 8 under mosh pit, fairly decent chance of one hitting. Then go in with MK, he also loses unyielding being knocked down. Knocking down Ghetorix, or any high arm model with unyielding, is often the way to go.

There are ways around single high def targets. I'm not looking for arguments here, I'm done with all of that, but there are ways to mitigate shortcomings.

As previously mentioned, Ghettorix with eBaldur does not get knocked down, as well as Tiberion. Those become major issues if you are relying on knock down to help the MtK hit - especially as both are easily capable of killing the MtK in one turn.

[PG_Goldstep]

Woldwrath has probably magical fists, too. While it's not confirmed, every Wold till now has magical attacks. Judging from that, possibly even his ranged attack is magical.

No. No magical weapons, spells, or magical attacks at all on the Woldwrath. His animus of adding dice to spells is entirely to help others.

[Trollicious]

As previously mentioned, Ghettorix with eBaldur does not get knocked down, as well as Tiberion. Those become major issues if you are relying on knock down to help the MtK hit - especially as both are easily capable of killing the MtK in one turn.

OR Behemoth with Superiority, or a wall of IFP under pIrusk's feat...

...or Any array of menoth jacks/infantry with choir and the book. I think that with def ward on the avatar it will survive a pow23 MK more often than not.

KD definitely isn't always going to be the answer, but we can list counterexamples to just about anything out there. Mosh Pit goes a long way to helping mitigate Mat5, as does Carnage, and calanda/grim's feats. Still, this makes the MK viable with a select few casters, as opposed to the stormwall, which is a good with nearly every cygnar caster.

Now, if Grim2 has some way of granting quick work, mat5 will make a lot of sense...



@Beckman,
As a Khador player, I'm well versed in the merits of IF Nyss, and I have run them as a frontline unit before, with Fennblades behind, but I still prefer the single Iron Fleshed unit in this case. I do like the shooting that nyss bring to the fight, along with the higher defense, but the low armor, and the fact that they get trampled over is an issue. Fennblades also have reach, are med bases, and have tough. After testing things out, I did find myself wanting some shooting though, but I'm considering swapping the fenns for boomhowlers instead, due to the superior jamming potential of 4+ tough.

4 more fenns is nice over the KSB, in some cases, but I just feel the option of the extra armor is a more versatile ability to have in your back pocket.

Lastly, I would warn you about running def18 nyss at a cygnar gunline. Granted, the gunmages need 9's if they are aiming, but with rangers, and deadeye available, those nyss are dropping fast, and cylenia will likely not make it though no matter what.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Grim will probably not grant quickwork.

However, he could very well have black spot, which would also allow a chance for a second shot.