The "Fix The Mountain King Through Model Addition" Thread.

[PG_joedj]

If eGrim has a Cygnar Ranger-like effect from his two buddies, the viability of shooty MK will be supported!


Side note: I lost my last 50pt game with MK and Jarl as warlock, my list also included Bushwhackers, War Wagon, Sons of Bragg. Lost to a Ret, Ossyan, triple-warjack (Hypnos, Banshee, Daemon), Stormfall Archers, Arcanists, 2x Destor Thanes, Dawnguard Sentinels.
My list was for fun/playtesting, but I always play to win!
Jarl does little to nothing for MK, especially since Feat doesn't block LOS .
Jarl's spells aren't superb for MK either, sad that Tactical Superiority can't be used for that extra slight retreat/re-entrenchment.
I believe I made it a competitive game, but the lack of distinct synergies made for a steep uphill battle!
I cannot recommend MK for Jarl.

ps. With Ossyan, Hypnos' 'no Forcing warbeast' gun is overpowered against Gargantuans which rely on power attacks for their main bread and butter attacks.

[Beckman]

Things don't seem to change for MtK at 50. He's still a bad choice, at least based on the playtesting. At 75 you can probably fit him in, but almost nothing is based on 75 point games and the standard is much lower.

It's really hard to talk about 75 points intelligently because a lot of our common perceptions get thrown out the window. EX: While Zaal is an unholy horror at 50, he is monsterous at 75.

Tiers: 4
Supreme Aptimus Zaal & Kovaas (*5pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Praetorian Karax (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)

Do you want to fight this pile? I sure don't. Ever. Even infantry hating lists dislike it, with the possible exception of lists that feature heavy corrosion. Last Stand pretty much kills anything, and Zaal's feat with 40 rank and file infantry models is stupid. 3 Extolers randomly punish people who bring beasts by boosting attack and damage rolls. And they can be Far Striked now, due to the Raider. Boosted POW21 on your Mountain King? Three times. Oh yeah, Janissa is probably target #1, for them... since they have 18" threat with far strike and ignore LOS... AND can boost under his feat using rage tokens, or at any time using soul tokens :P

Certainly against ultra-killy lists like the above, the King is a 20 point liability. But then again, pretty much any heavy beast would be. The difference is that the King can't kill even a reasonable number of Immortals at range with his spray before triggering vengance and dying to last stand. At least a Bomber could nibble at a unit with Far Strike, get vengeance charged and possibly live due to not enough immortals getting in. (Far strike range is 12" on bomber. Immortals vengance charge is 14)

I know if I were to play 75 with Trolls, I would almost always include the Impaler / Bomber / Wagon as a 24 point self-contained ranged package. I feel that we get hosed a lot by low ARM infantry with high DEF. Things that the Bomber / Impaler / Wagon really clear out well. Also, we're hosed by movement impairing effects. The shooting those three models provide can mitigate that issue. Last, even small bits of shooting allow you to selectively remove models in order to get better charges off.

I'd probably take Mulg and Rok, or maybe a Mauler. Depending on Character Restrictions, Janissa too. Then I'd take infantry and probably a KSB - I think the KSB really gets a lot more valuable at higher point games, because you'll be playing with more beasts and models to take advantage of the aura.

[Trollicious]

Side note: I lost my last 50pt game with MK and Jarl as warlock, my list also included Bushwhackers, War Wagon, Sons of Bragg. Lost to a Ret, Ossyan, triple-warjack (Hypnos, Banshee, Daemon), Stormfall Archers, Arcanists, 2x Destor Thanes, Dawnguard Sentinels.
My list was for fun/playtesting, but I always play to win!
Jarl does little to nothing for MK, especially since Feat doesn't block LOS .
Jarl's spells aren't superb for MK either, sad that Tactical Superiority can't be used for that extra slight retreat/re-entrenchment.
I believe I made it a competitive game, but the lack of distinct synergies made for a steep uphill battle!
I cannot recommend MK for Jarl.

ps. With Ossyan, Hypnos' 'no Forcing warbeast' gun is overpowered against Gargantuans which rely on power attacks for their main bread and butter attacks.

The only thing Jarl really has for MK is Quicken. His shooting can open up holes though, which may allow for tramples for the big guy. Also, throwing up feat clouds on top of him is one of the few things that can raise the MK defense, though not to where it would really matter. All in all, I'm inclined to agree that it's not something I would recommend, but I commend you for giving it a try.

[Malarowski]

It's really hard to talk about 75 points intelligently because a lot of our common perceptions get thrown out the window. EX: While Zaal is an unholy horror at 50, he is monsterous at 75.

Tiers: 4
Supreme Aptimus Zaal & Kovaas (*5pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Cyclops Savage (5pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Praetorian Karax (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)

Do you want to fight this pile? I sure don't. Ever. Even infantry hating lists dislike it, with the possible exception of lists that feature heavy corrosion. Last Stand pretty much kills anything, and Zaal's feat with 40 rank and file infantry models is stupid. 3 Extolers randomly punish people who bring beasts by boosting attack and damage rolls. And they can be Far Striked now, due to the Raider. Boosted POW21 on your Mountain King? Three times. Oh yeah, Janissa is probably target #1, for them... since they have 18" threat with far strike and ignore LOS... AND can boost under his feat using rage tokens, or at any time using soul tokens :P

Certainly against ultra-killy lists like the above, the King is a 20 point liability. But then again, pretty much any heavy beast would be. The difference is that the King can't kill even a reasonable number of Immortals at range with his spray before triggering vengance and dying to last stand. At least a Bomber could nibble at a unit with Far Strike, get vengeance charged and possibly live due to not enough immortals getting in. (Far strike range is 12" on bomber. Immortals vengance charge is 14)

I know if I were to play 75 with Trolls, I would almost always include the Impaler / Bomber / Wagon as a 24 point self-contained ranged package. I feel that we get hosed a lot by low ARM infantry with high DEF. Things that the Bomber / Impaler / Wagon really clear out well. Also, we're hosed by movement impairing effects. The shooting those three models provide can mitigate that issue. Last, even small bits of shooting allow you to selectively remove models in order to get better charges off.

I'd probably take Mulg and Rok, or maybe a Mauler. Depending on Character Restrictions, Janissa too. Then I'd take infantry and probably a KSB - I think the KSB really gets a lot more valuable at higher point games, because you'll be playing with more beasts and models to take advantage of the aura.

So you brought even more of the units that have far superior alternatives and that makes this list horrifying? You realize that just a wall, or Inhospitable ground will make short work of your super duper list, right? Not to mention that any Cryx will poop all over that, souls or not.

Not to mention IF'd Kayazy or Nyss. Harbinger and Old Witch will snicker. Immortals are sadly only Mat 6, and Arm 17 w/o Defensive line means they'll still get shot to pieces most likely, sadly. You seem to be looking at stuff very much in a vacuum with not too much experience. Sure, on paper your list looks great, but with some play experience on a higher level, you will notice huge huge vulnerabilities, which players will have no problem exploiting. I think the problem with the MK is that balancing generally is done with the best players in mind, as it has the most effect there. As a result of that, 'worse' players who don't see the intricate connections between many of their pieces are left in the dust and won't get the full potential out of it. See as an example players like Chuck Elswick winning with 'bad' stuff. Sadly those 'bad' players are much more vocal usually.

This is much scarier in my opinion:

Supreme Aptimus Zaal & Kovaas (*5pts)
* Basilisk Drake (4pts)
* Basilisk Drake (4pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)
Saxon Orrik (2pts)

[The Happy Anarchist]

Yep, along with all those bad players like Neutralyze, Watts, Kieth and the like who use the good models, and are fairly vocal about good and bad models. Yep. Pretty much all the good players are in agreement that bad models are really good, we just don't know how to use them.

Certainly Chuck isn't some weird renowned exception, known primarily for the fact that he is the guy that makes weird things work when no one else does. We are the ones who got it wrong! Yep, yep. Glad you cleared up how much worse we all are.

Frankly, it is ludicrous to say that something is good because Chuck can make it work. That is what he is known for, he can make pretty much anything work.

[Malarowski]

Yep, along with all those bad players like Neutralyze, Watts, Kieth and the like who use the good models, and are fairly vocal about good and bad models. Yep. Pretty much all the good players are in agreement that bad models are really good, we just don't know how to use them.

Certainly Chuck isn't some weird renowned exception, known primarily for the fact that he is the guy that makes weird things work when no one else does. We are the ones who got it wrong! Yep, yep. Glad you cleared up how much worse we all are.

Frankly, it is ludicrous to say that something is good because Chuck can make it work. That is what he is known for, he can make pretty much anything work.

First, those players you mentioned are very vocal in general, there are usually 16 players in masters events, very few out of them post much at all. I did not say a model is good because Chuck makes it work, but the MK is far from unplayable or broken as some people seem to make him. If you play 35 point games with no terrain, yes, he will just die. Troll have enough to support him to make him viable and useful, not in every situation, but that I think is good design rather than making something unplayable. I sure am glad it is not a model that makes every list.

[sourclams]

List all of the support that you feel the MtK should be receiving.

Specifics, not generalities.

[wargrim]

If you play 35 point games with no terrain, yes, he will just die.

In which way will terrain help the MK to survive? Of course there are linear obstacles he can hide behind to block charge lanes, but then he is going to have a hard time getting over the wall himself.

[Malarowski]

Terrain will funnel the troops a certain way. Last I checked not everything has pathfinder. Besides that, Trolls are about as good as it gets blocking charge lanes. Even if he does not benefit from the wall directly, it still is about 5 bases less that you will be placing. Especially with Janissa the wall won't be in its way unless you really messed up.

List all of the support that you feel the MtK should be receiving.

Specifics, not generalities.

What he _always_ should have is the stone, and that adds quite a bit already. Additionally EBDT and/or Janissa are also solid additions which will be helpful beyond the MK. Other than that, he does not need all that much. Maybe throw in a Winter Troll if you want to be cute with stationary shenanigans. Stone and Janissa should be sufficient though, with an army around to enable the MK to be useful. Not sure what else you expect, when I say 'support' and talk about Trolls it is pretty obvious I think what I mean. Not exactly rocket science.

[sourclams]

MtK + KSB+UA + Janissa + EBDT = 37 points.

You need a screen; Fenns + UA or Nyss Hunters are the most self-contained screen we have, list is up to 47 points.

At this point, you may have room for a damage buffing light or a couple solos or a min unit like Sons of Bragg.

But this list sucks. It is basically a 35 pt list that tries to wear big boy pants in 50s brackets.

Put it on the table and playtest it, it is a bad list. It loses a lot of the offensive potency of the beast brick, has fewer boxes, loses a lot of the movement buffs of Doomys/pMadrak, burns up Janissa, and is prone to getting jammed by infantry.

[PG_petegrrrr]

The stone is not an auto include in mark 2.

granted, you see it more in beast heavy lists than in infantry lists, and any list with the mountain king is by default beast heavy

[HellecticMojo]

The stone is not an auto include in mark 2.

granted, you see it more in beast heavy lists than in infantry lists, and any list with the mountain king is by default beast heavy

QFT.

the stone is the last thing I added to my current collection.

[Gdead909]

oh geeze not this again. Don't you guys go back and read whats already been posted?

[PG_petegrrrr]

oh geeze not this again. Don't you guys go back and read whats already been posted?

If you went back and did what you just suggested, you would see that we are directly responding to a post....so not sure exactly what the point of your post is, unless you just fell asleep on your keyboad and the impact of your head hitting the keys happened to type out a non sequitor. That is my current working theory.

[Beckman]

So you brought even more of the units that have far superior alternatives and that makes this list horrifying? You realize that just a wall, or Inhospitable ground will make short work of your super duper list, right? Not to mention that any Cryx will poop all over that, souls or not.

You do realize that they are threat range 11", and have vengeance, right?

Edit: You'd probably use your alternate list - eHexy, against Cryx or IF Khador. He's the best answer to high DEFinfantry spam that Skorne has at the moment.

Not to mention IF'd Kayazy or Nyss. Harbinger and Old Witch will snicker.

Generally, the only GOOD answer in Skorne for IF is eHexy, but Last Stand is infact an additional die, which when combined with Zaal's feat... will hit. Also, bear in mind that Karax, while they generally suck normally CAN CMA and only lose the member from the unit that performed the attack. At 50 points, I would agree with you generally At 75, I disagree. You have enough points to take additional models to mitigate your 40 infantry dudes.

Edit: Either way, Iron Flesh is not exactly an easy problem for Skorne to solve.. Prior to eHexy, Cav bowling, Carnage + Cav + Radiem, and other suboptimal solutions were pretty much your only route. So losing to Iron Flesh is something that a lot of Skorne lists have a problem with.

Immortals are sadly only Mat 6, and Arm 17 w/o Defensive line means they'll still get shot to pieces most likely, sadly.

Zaal has a spell to give the unit +2 ARM. This just isn't true. The front line is ARM19 with vengeance and reach. Know the rules of the list you're talking about.

You seem to be looking at stuff very much in a vacuum with not too much experience. Sure, on paper your list looks great, but with some play experience on a higher level, you will notice huge huge vulnerabilities, which players will have no problem exploiting.

Right. This is a pompous statement. I think you haven't played with the 50 point version of this list enough. I have. It's a rough customer. It only gets better at 75, because it can afford to bring more beasts and not lose out on much.

I think the problem with the MK is that balancing generally is done with the best players in mind, as it has the most effect there. As a result of that, 'worse' players who don't see the intricate connections between many of their pieces are left in the dust and won't get the full potential out of it. See as an example players like Chuck Elswick winning with 'bad' stuff. Sadly those 'bad' players are much more vocal usually.

Sure.... You know what... Just use the Mountain King with the models we have right now. It's a great model ruleswise. Good luck!

This is much scarier in my opinion:

Supreme Aptimus Zaal & Kovaas (*5pts)
* Basilisk Drake (4pts)
* Basilisk Drake (4pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer (3pts)
Agonizer (2pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)
Saxon Orrik (2pts)

While this list is... uhh... OK? Why do you have a Raider in there with Drakes? The Drakes have a Spray that can't benifit from Snipe? I'm just not seeing why you would want a Drake in the first place, let alone a second one. Nihilators are good with Last Stand, there are hijinks to be had, but I think you're poor on souls and warrior models for Zaal's feat. Probably because of the Drakes and Bronzebacks. I'd probably ditch the Drakes - Bronzebacks are very scary with Last Stand. I wouldn't object to a second one.

[Beckman]

First, those players you mentioned are very vocal in general, there are usually 16 players in masters events, very few out of them post much at all. I did not say a model is good because Chuck makes it work, but the MK is far from unplayable or broken as some people seem to make him. If you play 35 point games with no terrain, yes, he will just die. Troll have enough to support him to make him viable and useful, not in every situation, but that I think is good design rather than making something unplayable. I sure am glad it is not a model that makes every list.

Are you actually suggesting that the Mountain King is viable at 35 points? Please post a full viable list with any caster.

[PG_petegrrrr]

I think he was suggesting that both 35 points and lack of terrain could be the reason why mountain king isn't performing well. At least, I hope that's what he meant.

It doesn't make a ton of sense, since most of us have been playing or playing against him at 50+ points on standard boards, but it at least is accurate (35 points and a lack of terrain are both bad ideas for the mountain king)

[Malarowski]

MtK + KSB+UA + Janissa + EBDT = 37 points.

You need a screen; Fenns + UA or Nyss Hunters are the most self-contained screen we have, list is up to 47 points.

At this point, you may have room for a damage buffing light or a couple solos or a min unit like Sons of Bragg.

But this list sucks. It is basically a 35 pt list that tries to wear big boy pants in 50s brackets.

Put it on the table and playtest it, it is a bad list. It loses a lot of the offensive potency of the beast brick, has fewer boxes, loses a lot of the movement buffs of Doomys/pMadrak, burns up Janissa, and is prone to getting jammed by infantry.

That list sounds very much like most Troll lists are, swap MK for Mulg and something and there you go. Also notice how I mentioned the EBDT to be optional. It is also not like he only puts an animus on MK, the EBDT is a threat in itself. I honestly do not know what you expect. At 50 points every factions list will look like that and apart from Stormwall they Colossals all need some something. Also the MK adds infantry cleaning, it doesn't take it away. Amuck & Sweep / Trample is quite potent on that. In addition you can simply lock threats against it completely out of the game. Go up to the Avatar, lock the sword and that's all he wrote. I doubt Menoth infantry will kill your MK while the MK can lock the Avatar, kill it next turn and then kill the next threat if your EBDT didn't take care of it already.

While this list is... uhh... OK? Why do you have a Raider in there with Drakes? The Drakes have a Spray that can't benifit from Snipe? I'm just not seeing why you would want a Drake in the first place, let alone a second one. Nihilators are good with Last Stand, there are hijinks to be had, but I think you're poor on souls and warrior models for Zaal's feat. Probably because of the Drakes and Bronzebacks. I'd probably ditch the Drakes - Bronzebacks are very scary with Last Stand. I wouldn't object to a second one.

Drakes because Drakes are phenomenal. 4 points for a POW 14 spray that is boostable, yes please. Also the Snipe comment just shows how boxed in you are in your thinking, which I am worried about your judgement on the MK. Snipe is mostly for the Extoller/Zaal as their shot is far more potent than the cannoneer's terrible ranged attack that takes a lot of resources away. It also saves 9 points that can be spent on something useful. I am well aware of the rules and that Zaal has IR, which I still contest is better on Nihilators. I personally did not play this list, but one of my regular opponents is playing it ad nauseum and I played against many incarnations of it. The Nihilator swarm with good beasts behind so far made for the best games and the biggest challenge.

To your comment about solving IF with souls and Last Stand: Why not use Nihilators? With berserk you get much more bang for the buck out of them than CMA on Karax.

[PG_thegreatblah]

That list sounds very much like most Troll lists are, swap MK for Mulg and something and there you go. Also notice how I mentioned the EBDT to be optional. It is also not like he only puts an animus on MK, the EBDT is a threat in itself. I honestly do not know what you expect. At 50 points every factions list will look like that and apart from Stormwall they Colossals all need some something. Also the MK adds infantry cleaning, it doesn't take it away. Amuck & Sweep / Trample is quite potent on that. In addition you can simply lock threats against it completely out of the game. Go up to the Avatar, lock the sword and that's all he wrote. I doubt Menoth infantry will kill your MK while the MK can lock the Avatar, kill it next turn and then kill the next threat if your EBDT didn't take care of it already.

This has been addressed in this thread. Mk is not optimal over Mulg + a second Dire. Mulg/Mauler will accomplish what the MK can accomplish with interest. YES, there are inherent benefits associated with a Garg, currently it appears that those benefits are not greater than bringing two Dire Trolls instead of a MK.

[Gdead909]

Sorry petegrrr that was towards malarowski your posts just happen to beat mine in. Why don't we get back to the point of trying to find a model to help make this guy good. We have gone round and round again and the beast brick the MtK is not good. He is too big of a point sink.

[PG_petegrrrr]

Drakes because Drakes are phenomenal. 4 points for a POW 14 spray that is boostable, yes please. Also the Snipe comment just shows how boxed in you are in your thinking, which I am worried about your judgement on the MK. Snipe is mostly for the Extoller/Zaal as their shot is far more potent than the cannoneer's terrible ranged attack that takes a lot of resources away. It also saves 9 points that can be spent on something useful. I am well aware of the rules and that Zaal has IR, which I still contest is better on Nihilators. I personally did not play this list, but one of my regular opponents is playing it ad nauseum and I played against many incarnations of it. The Nihilator swarm with good beasts behind so far made for the best games and the biggest challenge.

To your comment about solving IF with souls and Last Stand: Why not use Nihilators? With berserk you get much more bang for the buck out of them than CMA on Karax.

Drakes sprays are usually good for infantry clearing, which means in a Zaal list it is largely redundant, because nihilators or immortals or any last standed infantry is going to clear out other infantry with no issues.

Krea's are actually really good with Zaal, since they can give his infantry heavy forces a much needed boost vs ranged attrition. A def 14 arm 19 immortal is hard to kill.

Also, IR is largely wasted on nihilators.

the difference between arm 13 and arm 15 on single wound models is largely negligible, where as on immortals it takes them from surviving pow 10's to surviving pow 12's on average, which is big.

It's not a bad list, and I think that the raider is good enough just to field as is, and occasionally use to snip the extoller, but it is not some zaal juggernaut.

[Beckman]

That list sounds very much like most Troll lists are, swap MK for Mulg and something and there you go. Also notice how I mentioned the EBDT to be optional. It is also not like he only puts an animus on MK, the EBDT is a threat in itself. I honestly do not know what you expect.

So you said this sarcastically earlier, but it was deleted by mods (probably because the conversation turned poorly).. "What did you expect, Mulg with a Bomber strapped on his back?"

And the answer is Yes, Yes I do.

Roughly equivalent damage output to Mulg. Weapon Platform, and two bomber shots. Max Fury 5. 56 boxes. No whelp shedding. Just bombs and damage output. Simple. OR, you could give me 2x Spray10s + Melee in the same activation on MAT6/RAT6 with 56 boxes.

You're losing damage output on TMK, since he is FURY5 compared to a combined FURY9. He'd also STILL be less boxes than a Bomber + Mulg. You'd gain the ability to fire into things in your melee. So it'd be a tradeoff.

I'd say it would be a fairly solid 20 point model..

At 50 points every factions list will look like that and apart from Stormwall they Colossals all need some something. [/quote]

Also the MK adds infantry cleaning, it doesn't take it away. Amuck & Sweep / Trample is quite potent on that.

It's a 20 point model that acts like a slightly improved axer. Trample is very difficult to pull off with such a large base.

In addition you can simply lock threats against it completely out of the game. Go up to the Avatar, lock the sword and that's all he wrote.

I doubt Menoth infantry will kill your MK while the MK can lock the Avatar, kill it next turn and then kill the next threat if your EBDT didn't take care of it already.

I disagree with this!

Drakes because Drakes are phenomenal. 4 points for a POW 14 spray that is boostable, yes please.

Mediocre RAT, but whatever floats your boat.. I don't think it helps any against the lists you mentioned as being difficult to handle.

Also the Snipe comment just shows how boxed in you are in your thinking, which I am worried about your judgement on the MK. Snipe is mostly for the Extoller/Zaal as their shot is far more potent than the cannoneer's terrible ranged attack that takes a lot of resources away. It also saves 9 points that can be spent on something useful.

I don't have a cannoneer in my list. I DO have MORE Extollers than you in the list AND the Raider. So I don't know exactly why you're saying that I don't get how good they are. I'm including the Extollers mostly for their ranged attack.

I am well aware of the rules and that Zaal has IR, which I still contest is better on Nihilators. I personally did not play this list, but one of my regular opponents is playing it ad nauseum and I played against many incarnations of it.

I agree that Beserk and last stand is very strong. I disagree that it's better against shooting. ARM19 is brutal against Gunmages. Even if they were to kill one, the Vengeance alone would allow a fatal charge.

The Nihilator swarm with good beasts behind so far made for the best games and the biggest challenge.

I don't contest that Immortals are the only way to go with Zaal. My point was ONLY that at 75 points, Zaal gets much better than he is a 50, and that other casters get worse. An outside of tier example of Zaal at 75 would be:

Supreme Aptimus Zaal & Kovaas (*5pts)
* Cyclops Raider (5pts)
* Bronzeback Titan (10pts)
* Tiberion (11pts)
* Titan Gladiator (8pts)
* Aptimus Marketh (3pts)
Immortals (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 5 Grunts) (3pts)
Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer (3pts)
Ancestral Guardian (3pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Extoler Soulward (2pts)
Hakaar the Destroyer (4pts)
Saxon Orrik (2pts)

To your comment about solving IF with souls and Last Stand: Why not use Nihilators? With berserk you get much more bang for the buck out of them than CMA on Karax.

Sure, and the coherency trick of charging the leader out of formation so that he dies to last stand along with everyone else who charged is beardy. I've played against it.. I've played regular Zaal. I was keeping the list as a tier list, when in retrospect, at 75 it's better to go non-tier... you can add in Tibby and pathfinding. I think it's better against melee infantry and worse against shooting because of lack of Vengeance.

[sourclams]

That list sounds very much like most Troll lists are, swap MK for Mulg and something and there you go.

The list is very much like Troll Beast bricks (how can "most" troll lists rely on a restricted character)?

The problem being that swapping MK for Mulg+8 points makes the list better in almost every way, which is why MK is fundamentally a poor model choice.

Also notice how I mentioned the EBDT to be optional. It is also not like he only puts an animus on MK, the EBDT is a threat in itself. I honestly do not know what you expect.

I expect a standalone model, not a model that needs more than 10 points of babysitting to perform about as well as a model 8 points cheaper.

Also the MK adds infantry cleaning, it doesn't take it away. Amuck & Sweep / Trample is quite potent on that.

This is actually wrong, mathematically. The MtK can Sweep a single arc, which is less area coverage than an Axer at 2 lower MAT and 1 lower POW. He can then buy 3 more attacks (assuming he amucked) against 3 more individual models, but will only hit 2 and potentially only 1 due to Mat5 vs typical def12. This means he clears as much infantry as a 6 pt model, which means he does indeed 'take away' more than he gives.

Because Sweep is a power attack, the MtK's theat range is 5" less than a self-Rushed Axer.

Under eDoomy or pMadrak's feat, Rok or a primaled Axer can clear out a much larger swathe of tightly packed infantry, and again under eDoomy's feat Mulg and a second Dire can trample a larger area with higher probability of doing so with their 60mm bases.

I doubt Menoth infantry will kill your MK while the MK can lock the Avatar, kill it next turn and then kill the next threat if your EBDT didn't take care of it already.

Wut? eKreoss/pSeverius

At this point, I do not think you have playtested Mountain King at all. I do not think you actually play trolls as a faction, and if you do, I do not think you play them at a very high level.

[sepher32]

Ghad, Whelp Herder

Def13 ARM13
5 boxes
No weapons
PC:2

Star action- spawn a whelp within 2"

Elite Cadre: Friendly Whelps gain Distraction - while within 1" of this model enemy models suffer -1 Defense.

[Beckman]

Ghad, Whelp Herder

Def13 ARM13
5 boxes
No weapons
PC:2

Star action- spawn a whelp within 2"

Elite Cadre: Friendly Whelps gain Distraction - while within 1" of this model enemy models suffer -1 Defense.

NO. MAKE HIM TRAIN THEM TO CARRY EXPLOSIVES. IT HAS TO HAPPEN.

Tactics: Unsafe Teachings.

Friendly Whelps gain Volatile Concoction. When a model with Volatile Concoction is destroyed, its controller may place a 4" template that does a POW8 fire damage roll to all models underneath it into play. This effect is a cloud that lasts until end of turn.

BOOM, BOOM, BOOM. I don't care if it's good... it would make me smile. And it would make people think twice about clearing whelps out that get spawned.

"Do we REALLY want to kill that Whelp? It would kill all of our infantry models that just charged..."

[sourclams]

If it caused continuous corrosion, that would actually make a lot of sense.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

I doubt Menoth infantry will kill your MK while the MK can lock the Avatar, kill it next turn and then kill the next threat if your EBDT didn't take care of it already.

Bastions wreck colossals like it's their job. A unit of them and a reckoner/templar should take out most colossals, especially with ignite casters.

[PG_petegrrrr]

My pow 14 weaponmaster bastions (assuming ignite caster) do 7 damage a piece on the charge against an arm 21 Mountain king, which means 35 damage.

Against an arm 19 mountain king, they do 45 damage, which means they are one slightly above average roll away from killing him flat out. Menoth infantry can hit like a ton of bricks.

[sourclams]

Under eKreoss feat they kill ARM21 MtK with damage to spare.

[Malarowski]

And of course they will get a completely uncontested charge through an open field to attack the MK. Also you guys forgot Ragman standing in a perfect spot and Gorman who Oiled up the MK beforehand. I am sure it is not impossible that Menoth infantry will do that, but you did not take into account all the Burrowers that just popped up and when your ignited guys charged in Calandra popped her feat obviously. Any other variables to be introduced that I missed for you to create a scenario that will kill the MK reliably?

Since you like that too much, the MK just weapon locked the Avatar with a wall to one flank while standing behind a patch of rought terrain. Janissa then went and popped a wall on the other side.

Either way, keep moping about how terrible the MK is, apparently you are convinced to do that.

[PG_Warsmith]

And of course they will get a completely uncontested charge through an open field to attack the MK. Also you guys forgot Ragman standing in a perfect spot and Gorman who Oiled up the MK beforehand. I am sure it is not impossible that Menoth infantry will do that, but you did not take into account all the Burrowers that just popped up and when your ignited guys charged in Calandra popped her feat obviously. Any other variables to be introduced that I missed for you to create a scenario that will kill the MK reliably?

Since you like that too much, the MK just weapon locked the Avatar with a wall to one flank while standing behind a patch of rought terrain. Janissa then went and popped a wall on the other side.

Either way, keep moping about how terrible the MK is, apparently you are convinced to do that.

For my own curiosity, do you play Trolls? Or even against them regularly? I ask because most of the individuals I see stating the MtnK is fine and defending its poor stats are not Troll players and some don't even fight against them regularly which makes their arguments fairly hard to comprehend.

[Beckman]

And of course they will get a completely uncontested charge through an open field to attack the MK. Also you guys forgot Ragman standing in a perfect spot and Gorman who Oiled up the MK beforehand. I am sure it is not impossible that Menoth infantry will do that, but you did not take into account all the Burrowers that just popped up and when your ignited guys charged in Calandra popped her feat obviously. Any other variables to be introduced that I missed for you to create a scenario that will kill the MK reliably?

Oh yeah, you're right! It's SOOOOO HAAAARD to kill Mulg. It's not like that happens with any degree of regularity... And it's not like the Mountain King is a pieplate with the same ARM and worse DEF for 66% more points.

Why does rough terrain even matter? They're just going to bring Saxon and charge over it anyways...

Since you like that too much, the MK just weapon locked the Avatar with a wall to one flank while standing behind a patch of rought terrain. Janissa then went and popped a wall on the other side.

Don't worry, it still wouldn't be a problem. Bastions have reach, and your DEF is crap.

[HellecticMojo]

And of course they will get a completely uncontested charge through an open field to attack the MK. Also you guys forgot Ragman standing in a perfect spot and Gorman who Oiled up the MK beforehand. I am sure it is not impossible that Menoth infantry will do that, but you did not take into account all the Burrowers that just popped up and when your ignited guys charged in Calandra popped her feat obviously. Any other variables to be introduced that I missed for you to create a scenario that will kill the MK reliably?

Since you like that too much, the MK just weapon locked the Avatar with a wall to one flank while standing behind a patch of rought terrain. Janissa then went and popped a wall on the other side.

Either way, keep moping about how terrible the MK is, apparently you are convinced to do that.

I will second warsmith's question. I'll even ask if you even play the game. Ragman doesn't even work for menoth, and I'm really confused about the ignited and the burrowers and the Calandra feat charge. Calandra's feat does nothing for it defensively, and ignite is a menoth thing that has nothing to do with burrowers.

Also Avatar breaking the grip on the Mk is a distinct possibility. infact MK is the only colossal gargant where every non cryxian heavy can break the grip. Other colossals, its not even a possibility.

[PG_petegrrrr]

And of course they will get a completely uncontested charge through an open field to attack the MK. Also you guys forgot Ragman standing in a perfect spot and Gorman who Oiled up the MK beforehand. I am sure it is not impossible that Menoth infantry will do that, but you did not take into account all the Burrowers that just popped up and when your ignited guys charged in Calandra popped her feat obviously. Any other variables to be introduced that I missed for you to create a scenario that will kill the MK reliably?

Since you like that too much, the MK just weapon locked the Avatar with a wall to one flank while standing behind a patch of rought terrain. Janissa then went and popped a wall on the other side.

Either way, keep moping about how terrible the MK is, apparently you are convinced to do that.

If you don't get that it is INCREDIBLY EASY to charge a model with A BASE THE SIZE OF A SMALL DINNER PLATE that has a SINGLE DIGIT DEFENSE...I got nothing for you. If that concept boggles the mind, then debate is rendered pointless, so godspeed good sir, but we are done discussing this

[PG_Goldstep]

This isn't the forum for Trolls. Trollbloods. Trollbloods.
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...38/474/4a0.png
Oh, fine. Never mind. At least the rest of us can stop feeding them.

Several pages back there was a note about needing something to increase his ROF to be able to make him viable at 20 points.

I kinda want something that we use to "flesh out the option" to be a solo and not just eGrim for one very basic reason: if it only works with one warlock, the model is still very restricted.
A beast is better, but make it an animus and now he can't use the other animi that we're already assuming for him.
Make it a solo and you can put it in any list and cheaply.

So a solo -- that brings us to some kind of beast hander again... and here's the idea...
What about Ancillary Attack... beasts only instead of 'jacks of course.
Sure you could use it on the Bomber for another AOE -if he isn't engaged- or Mulg for another club -if he is-, but this model can use the ranged attack even if you jam.
Now the other issue we get with MtK is that unless someone goes for a few points here and there instead of going for the throat MtK has a lot of trouble rallying. So give the solo a double all healing ability. Again, useful for all our beasts, but more useful for MtK simply because of the potential behind sweep and whelps.
I still feel like you would want it to have a "+2 to attack rolls for sprays" ability, but you could easily use both and then... voila! Now, just like the Vassal, cause lets face it, that's what I've presented, he is legitimately a low cost model.

So each turn you pick from
Ancillary Attack, Double Healing, *or* +2 Sprays
What do you think?

[sourclams]

And of course they will get a completely uncontested charge through an open field to attack the MK. Also you guys forgot Ragman standing in a perfect spot and Gorman who Oiled up the MK beforehand. I am sure it is not impossible that Menoth infantry will do that, but you did not take into account all the Burrowers that just popped up and when your ignited guys charged in Calandra popped her feat obviously. Any other variables to be introduced that I missed for you to create a scenario that will kill the MK reliably?

The part that makes me giggle is that all the Menoth stuff you're mentioning here totals to 12 points and eKreoss' feat (even allowing for Ragman). You simply have no real sense of scale.

[Coldblooded3k]

@ PG_Goldstep
Kudos to you sir for attempting to bring this thread back into it's lane, been looking like a runaway 18 wheeler on a freeway for a while there. I like the idea of a beast handling solo, and since Trolls are "the buffing race" it falls into our play style as well. I actually like a lot of the suggestions presented so far, I wonder how many might already be in the works to an extent.

I was thinking maybe a solo that is a warlock attachment(so he would eat up the Runebearer's spot)that grants said Warlock +1 Fury as long as he's alive, and that could grant a warbeast +2 Fury for one round.

Just a thought

[HellecticMojo]

I would not like that at all, that's just begging for a fury tax to be put on our warlocks in the future, and considering we didn't get a skalock, and got a mediocre version of the hierophant, boast warlocks with least fury, and beast with most, it seems pretty obvious that PP doesn't plan to give us a real efficient fury management.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Terrain will funnel the troops a certain way. Last I checked not everything has pathfinder. Besides that, Trolls are about as good as it gets blocking charge lanes. Even if he does not benefit from the wall directly, it still is about 5 bases less that you will be placing. Especially with Janissa the wall won't be in its way unless you really messed up.

What he _always_ should have is the stone, and that adds quite a bit already. Additionally EBDT and/or Janissa are also solid additions which will be helpful beyond the MK. Other than that, he does not need all that much. Maybe throw in a Winter Troll if you want to be cute with stationary shenanigans. Stone and Janissa should be sufficient though, with an army around to enable the MK to be useful. Not sure what else you expect, when I say 'support' and talk about Trolls it is pretty obvious I think what I mean. Not exactly rocket science.

Wow. Good thing you thought of this. Certainly troll players never thought of the thing they have been doing since a month or two after Janissa came out. We certainly never actually put it on the table, and I would have never have guessed to playtest it at 50 points. /sarcasm

We have put it on the table. With the Earthborn. This the first sign that you have not actually playtested for or against the model. Either that or you have never actually played against a troll brick. This was covered in this very thread, but the MtK is less survivable than Mulg in the context of the Earthborn/Janissa/KSB list. Note - not less survivable for the points, not less survivable than a Mulg + Mauler - outright less survivable than Mulg. This is because Mulg's smaller base size and 2 higher defense make the wall matter so much more. Mulg can tuck in behind the wall, which blocks a significantly larger portion of the access to him and Def 13 is high enough that even Mat 6-7 models start missing. Moreover, Def 15 is significantly harder to hit with debuffs, so you get things like the occasional missed Parasite or softening up ranged attacks. All of this combine to mean that Mulg, and the Earthborn for that matter are actually more survivable than the MtK in that kind of list. The huge base is a huge problem. There are other issues with the list - significantly easier to jam, where to put Janissa and order of activations now that you can't just move the front line up first and have Janissa move up and drop the wall in front. Praying that you don't run into a list with Pow 4-5 or lower like Skorne beast heavy or Legion beast heavy.

Almost everyone that has put the models on the table has come to the same conclusion. You should almost never do the Earthborn + Janissa list with the MtK. It flat out does not work.

First, those players you mentioned are very vocal in general, there are usually 16 players in masters events, very few out of them post much at all. I did not say a model is good because Chuck makes it work, but the MK is far from unplayable or broken as some people seem to make him. If you play 35 point games with no terrain, yes, he will just die. Troll have enough to support him to make him viable and useful, not in every situation, but that I think is good design rather than making something unplayable. I sure am glad it is not a model that makes every list.

What makes you feel qualified to say he is not? What makes you think that troll players - ones who have put him on the table mind you, which you clearly have not - don't know about troll support models? Have you followed any of the threads where we discuss support models, how to use them? Clearly not - otherwise you wouldn't have suggested the Earthborn/Janissa combo which we discovered early on had major flaws. Why are you more qualified than virtually every person that has actually put him on the table? Do you honestly think that we are playtesting him in 35 point games with no terrain? If not, why would you say something like that?

As of this point, we are trying to find one list that he works well in and are having trouble with that. That is not good game design. Nobody is asking for the MtK to be good in every list - we are still searching for the first list that he is better than the alternatives in and coming up short. And trust me, it is not for lack of trying. The people you see disagreeing with you are some of the most optimistic players on the troll forums. Almost universally we are seeing poor results in actual game play on the table. We are trying everything we are pulling out all the stops looking for sweet combos. We haven't given up - we have some ideas with Gunnbjorn and my pMadrak Fenns + MtK list has shown a glimmer of hope. Definitely not taking to a tournament promise, but not getting completely rolled at least or obviously not working.

Seriously, at least take the time to read the thread you are posting in, and maybe even *GASP* play a game or two before immediately declaring that all of us who have played the model are wrong. Maybe even get a basic understanding of the faction while you are at it.

[Gdead909]

@pg_Goldstep I think its a great idea now how many points would he be? Would he be a pyg so 13 def 12 arm? 3 points?