Dealing with Avatar of Menoth?

[InkBlood]

So our resident Menoth player has been fielding the Avatar with a choir and I'm stumped on how to deal with it. I'm currently running a either Grim or Calandra when I play and the thing just seems overpowered, but I refuse to believe there isn't something I can do against it. Or is this one of those "Do your best to avoid it" type of situations?

[Gramut]

Avatar + Choir just equals having to get into the thick of it and take it down via Melee.

A few tricks to limit its over-powered-ness include (but are not limited to..):
1) It is killable, do not get psyched out by it
2) Arm-locking the shield arm
3) Arm-locking the weapon arm
3) Knock it down, as if it wasn't already easy enough to hit
4) Two Hand Throw!!! Never underestimate the power of a good throw, kills Choir and Casters good (in addition to getting that thing out of your force, eliminating a focus for a shake effect and/or sacrificing a move or action)
5) Units on the charge can bring it down, done it myself a few times (I have wrecked the Avatar with a unit of Forgeguard on the charge, it became a smoldering heap on the fourth hit, admittedly those were some spectacular damage rolls)

The key to increasing your success against Menoth is destroying their support/denial solos/units. Menoth relies heavily, I think more so than any other army in WM/H, on their support units and by taking out their ability to say "no" makes them easier to beat.

As I am learning with Trolls, there are MAT and Str buffs for both Warbeasts and Units aplenty, use them. My first game with a Mauler (and Trolls for that matter) saw me spank the ever-living-#$&% out of a few Menoth Warjacks before tossing a Crusader into Rezznik for chuckles.

Best of luck!

[PG_petegrrrr]

What beasts are you bringing?

Earth Born Dire troll LOVES fighting the avatar, because it makes him pow 19

really, it's probably more about what's in your lists in that what your facing, so list composition would help

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

With Grim, just make sure you pop the avatar with the gun to make him trigger enliven first, or if you're close enough and they don't have the book you can hit it with the net gun. Barring that, run some infantry around to stop it from enlivening back before you charge it.

[Spume]

As Gramut said arm locks are the way to go against this thing. It stops enliven, it eats the initial attacks and forces it to beat on you with the shield. A raged Mauler under the stone shouldn't lose the str contest. Often you are better off trying to neutralize the Avatar over trying to outright kill it. My favorite is to lock the arm with a Mauler then have Mulg come in and beat on it a few times, maybe taking out that sword arm or another critical system.

[FearMeMortals]

The Avatar isn't any harder to kill then any other ARM21 jack. It has an amazing potential for damage output but a Mauler will kill it in a charge. Its certainly a strong piece, but its not any harder to kill then another heavy with a shield.

[bakaryu]

I am certainly part of the "lock the shield arm if you are confident, lock the sword arm if you aren't" camp.

It prevents him moving away with enliven and any of our heavies can easily be buffed up to STR16 if you brought a Mauler, this means he can only win if you roll a 1 and he rolls a 6 for the STR test to break free. This also costs him his initial attacks meaning you only have to worry about 2-4 swings if he did by some miracle manage to free himself.

[PeregrineP]

I was under the impression that you only forfeit initial attacks from the weapons that're locked. Therefore if you lock the shield, Avatar just giggles and smashes you with his sword. Does it negate the ARM bonus from the shield so you can beat on it with other stuff at ARM19?

[PG_thegreatblah]

You can certainly buy additional attacks though

[PG_BrickandMurder]

I was under the impression that you only forfeit initial attacks from the weapons that're locked. Therefore if you lock the shield, Avatar just giggles and smashes you with his sword. Does it negate the ARM bonus from the shield so you can beat on it with other stuff at ARM19?

Yes. If the arm with the shield is locked then the avatar will not receive the +2 ARM benefit from his shield.

[PG_frazerpenman]

I was under the impression that you only forfeit initial attacks from the weapons that're locked. Therefore if you lock the shield, Avatar just giggles and smashes you with his sword. Does it negate the ARM bonus from the shield so you can beat on it with other stuff at ARM19?

Locking the shield removes the armour bonus and your correct if you lock the shield it will still get it's initial attack with its sword.

As for dealing with the thing the only time the Avatar should give you issues is if it has defender's ward or enliven on it.

All the advice I would give on getting around enliven has already been given.

Defenders ward can be gotten round by stripping the spell with Doomshaper or a thrullg though I'm reasonably confident any of our melee heavies should still get the job done 9 times out of ten

[Beckman]

1. Get Earthborn in your list.
2. Bait the Line on the Avatar.
3. Apply Pyre Troll's Animus to Earthborn
4. Charge it and tear its eyes off.

[omerplata]

As has been stated EBDT with Pyre animus is at P+S 21. Arm lock then proceed to tear it apart. I have never had an avatar do much against me. It is incredibly slow so you should never have an issue getting the alpha strike off, especially with the earthborn.

The avatar just looks big and scary, but it is just a huge target for you to take out. Do not over commit yourself to removing it though, spend to much time on it and you might leave an opening for counter attack. I have seen the avatar used as bait for such plays a few times.

[HellecticMojo]

Character vs Character, both our character heavies can beat the stuffings out of the avatar.
Or even a unit of champs, oh the gaze forcing use to huddle together? fine then, let the armor buffs begin.

Trolls don't avoid stuff (except for burrowers) we smash it and we do it well. Maybe you need some more heavy hitters in your list.

[Syas]

On average dice (without boosting), sacrificing initials to lock the arm:
*Mulg/EBDT scraps the Avatar with 5 attacks.
*Mauler scraps him with 5 attacks if your Warlock casts the Mauler's Animus on him.
*Rok scraps him with 4 attacks if your Warlock casts Primal on Rok, or leaves him crippled with 5 attacks and no Primal (30 Damage vs. 32 Boxes).


Again that is with average dice and in a vacuum that includes only the beast and your Warlock.

Reasonable case on average dice?

Mulg/EBDT with Mauler animus, +1 Str from the Stone, 3 hits.

[InkBlood]

Whoa, lotta responses! This is what I'm currently running:

25 pt Grim:
-Earthborn
-Impaler
-Pyre
Max Fennblades
-UA & Drummer
-Swamp Gobbers

25 Calandra:
-Bomber
-Impaler
-Runebearer
Max Fennblades
-UA & Drummer
Fell Caller or Janissa

I sadly posted this making a rookie mistake (which is fair....since I'm a rookie :P) and didn't realize that warbeasts and warlocks were fearless. So I'm not so worried anymore about it. I won't look down on it, but yeah. (I would still love thoughts since I posted my lists.)

[HellecticMojo]

Your grim list is good, but I definitely see that your Calandra list has some armor cracking issues.

Time to two hand throw them away I guess.

[stupidmonkey]

To sum up some of the points on Enliven so far (and add some of my own as a Menoth player)

1) You cannot knock the Avatar down until you kill the book. This is often easier said than done
2) Running infantry around the Avatar to block it's move works, just be careful not to incur free strikes from the reach sword.
3) Shield locking (if you can kill it... you can) is best. -2 Arm and no enliven get the job done in my experiences.

[Saraminss]

switch over to Doomshaper and take Mulg... Mulg smashes face

[FranzGrenstein]

Kill the caster, with grim you have a 17/ 13 gun.

Feed the Avatar 1 or 2 fenn blades a turn.
Aside from that position fenns so it you limit enliven, apply mulg to face.

[PG_Mr. Mayhem]

I've found popping Burrowers up behind it (or any Menoth jack really) is a great way to prevent the often inevitable Enliven movement once your EB/heavy of choice charges in. You only need to get 2 behind it to prevent it from backing away from you. With the Avatar just be careful to (if possible) avoid unnecessary engagement with the Burrowers, as its Terror can screw them (though the Enliven movement can easily have it turn to engage them/force a check). Though a lot of people bring CMD help for them, it still bears mentioning.

[cryptomancer]

As a long-time Protectorate player and huge fan of the Avatar, there are some things to keep in mind when trying to kill it. And make no mistake, it is very killable. However, as Protectorate is basically THE denial faction, we do have some tricks to keep it alive:

ARM buffs. Whether you're talking Inviolable Resolve or the ol' stand-by Defender's Ward (of Menoth), plenty of Protectorate warcasters have the capacity to buff the Avatar's ARM score to a very scary 23. As Trollbloods have limited tools for killing enemy upkeeps, be aware that you may have to devote more than one of our heavies to mashing through that steel plate.

Sacred Ward. You've probably come across this by now, but the Avatar is immune to your magic. Not that we have a whole ton of offensive spellcasting, but that means no Befuddle, no Marked for Death, no Stranglehold or Primal Shock or any of that. Pick another target.

Enliven. Yes, this is fantastically irritating. Hurt it, and it walks away. The best counter is to shoot it with something magical (because the Choir will have Hymn of Passage up on it) and force the Protectorate player to make their Enliven move early (either moving it back out of threat range or forward toward the action), charge it with a solo (most of our Weapon Master solos can at least dent the thing on a charge), or knock it down. Speaking of which...

The Book. No KD within 10" of a man-sized fearless nigh-indistructable 2-point solo. Yikes. If the book's around, consider a slam just to get the Avatar away from your other pieces. Failing that, sacrifice a Light to pin it in place until you can get a Heavy-killer into position.

The Avatar goes down like any other enemy Heavy with a shield. Just find a way to put the pain on it.

-crypto

[Armides]

Another, often made, way to stop enliven is to run with some (mostly 2) guys araound the Avatar and playce them B2B with the Avatar. Move them that far back that they'll stay with an edge of their Bases in the Frontarc of the Avatar, so you won't get freestrikes. Then the Avatar can't enliven to anywhere when you charge him in front. Also works with every other enlivend Jack.
Don't forget: Menoth's Gaze forces you to move to the Avatar, but not directly towards. You can walk a great circle around the Avatar.
And only when the model starts it's activation in LOS. So when you block LOS (with another model e.g.) the model starting it's activation is not in LOS and can move where ever it wants.

[tallted]

Everyone has gone over how to kill it, which there are plenty of good ways. I can't emphasize enough how useful the shield lock is.
That being said, my friend who regularly fields the Avatar attempts to use it for board control. If you're in the Avatars command, you can only move towards it (directly towards?). Either way, plan on it, and use it to your advantage. Outside of scenario this can ruin your opponents day, by allowing you to split the avatar, and some of his support pieces from the rest of their army. Think parting the red sea. Synergy factions like ours and Menoth do not like being split, because it can seriously reduce the armies effectiveness, by pushing support out of range, of key models/units, or requiring them to be in a very unsafe position in order to provide those keys buffs.
In scenario play it gets trickier, since you dont have the whole board at your disposal. In those cases I make the avatar top priority so that it does not dictate my movement.
As a side note in casual games against menoth, I always bring the swamp troll, specifically to try and crit consume the book. It has hard to accomplish, but can happen, and is hilarious. Even without the consume it still pulls it way out of where your opponent will want it, and put it in a place to be trashed.

[JustNCREDIBLE]

To sum up some of the points on Enliven so far (and add some of my own as a Menoth player)

1) You cannot knock the Avatar down until you kill the book. This is often easier said than done
.

2 words for that... Swamp Troll.

Since the book IS considered a small model by it's ruling, you can crit consume it.. hehehe

[The Happy Anarchist]

One note is certain troll lists like Grim and Jarl can put some serious threat into killing the Vassals. That can go a long way into making it easier to deal with.