Double Venger with Kreoss3

[PG_ICleadpeople]

Has anyone else looked at Cav as an answer to Collossals? Fast, hard hitting, and good spell support from Kreoos3

[Lanz]

They won't hit hard enough and would probably get demolished on the following turn by Sweep power attacks.

[Beaumains]

I hate to say it (because I really like the idea), but I concur with Lanz.

They just don't make it into the required weight-class.

[Arractur]

Does that mean that Kreoss 3 is actually a fail?

[Masanori]

pow 16 wth ignite, on the charge, roll 4 dice pick best 3... meh...
If they were injured they'd be armor 18 but that's 'bout it. blessed lances does mean no spell buff on the colossos

[Gavriel]

Will kreoss3 cav spam work against colossals? Probably not.

Will it work against everything else? Probably.

Kreoss definitely has the spells and abilities necessary to drop colossals, but you will need to be applying them to heavier hitting models than Vengers.

[Gavriel]

Actually if you manage to charge with all 5 at pow 18 they will do a pretty good job. The problem is that you have very little chance of delivering all 5 to the target with the damage buff active. More likely you'll end up only charging with 2 or 3 of them which might fill in a box, but won't be finishing it off.

Average roll for 4d6 drop the lowest is 12.24, so at pow 18, 5 vengers will do 56.2 damage to Stormwall on average, almost enough to finish it.

[ChristianAas]

Does that mean that Kreoss 3 is actually a fail?

Do you actually believe Kreoss3 is all about Vengers?

[Arractur]

Do you actually believe Kreoss3 is all about Vengers?

Thought so, yes. I am really happy if I am wrong - a friend of mine SUDDENLY gifted me with Fire of Salvation so I am very eager to play Kreoss 3(don't like Kreoss 1 and like but don't have units for Kreoss 2)

[Rinion]

He'll most certainly want at least a unit or two. Deciding between one large unit, or two min units for flexibility. Though certainly not *all* about Vengers. He has Warpath too after all!

[ChristianAas]

Thought so, yes. I am really happy if I am wrong - a friend of mine SUDDENLY gifted me with Fire of Salvation so I am very eager to play Kreoss 3(don't like Kreoss 1 and like but don't have units for Kreoss 2)

Kreoss3 brings threat increase for his 'jacks, a ranged KD and a damagebuff (wich is great with the addition of Colossals in the meta). He seems to be a fun toolboxcaster. Vengers is useful with him, but not autoinclude.

[Soulblighter]

One unit of Vengers is definitely autoinclude with Kreoss3. I wouldnt buy a second unit of Vengers just to use them with Kreoss3. And I wouldnt charge a Colossal with Vengers unless I had no other choice.

[Marzuki]

5 or 6 attacks from a heavy will crumple a colossal. No reason to send your anti-infantry (i.e. Vengers) up against it when heavies can do their thing and usually live through the counter attack if your dice crap out on you.

[Lanz]

Does that mean that Kreoss 3 is actually a fail?

No, it just means that a bunch of vengers are not the ideal tool to throw at a Colossal.

That said, with their S&P effect and Ignite, they'd be able to do some good damage on the charge, but they won't scrap one by themselves. They'd probably work well going in just after a heavy warjack to finish off an already-damaged colossal, but the stars would have to allign.

If they trigger battle driven without suffering losses and if they have Ignite, they'd be an effective boosted POW 20 on the charge. 5 blessed boosted POW 20s would probably do some serious damage to a Colossal, but I don't imagine it would destroy it outright.

Each venger would average to a POW 31.5 hit with blessed, so on a Stormwall that's about 11/12 damage per hit. If all of them got in, you'd probably be looking at most of the boxes gone (which is impressive for cavalry), but again, that won't finish the job.

[PG_ICleadpeople]

Its a huge amount of damage points wise, plus everyone has to take the other parts of the army that will be softening the Collossal up. Im looking at them as the most likely to deliver that one turn kill stroke thats going to be key to dealing with any of the Collossals.

[Blackraine]

No, it just means that a bunch of vengers are not the ideal tool to throw at a Colossal.

That said, with their S&P effect and Ignite, they'd be able to do some good damage on the charge, but they won't scrap one by themselves. They'd probably work well going in just after a heavy warjack to finish off an already-damaged colossal, but the stars would have to allign.

If they trigger battle driven without suffering losses and if they have Ignite, they'd be an effective boosted POW 20 on the charge. 5 blessed boosted POW 20s would probably do some serious damage to a Colossal, but I don't imagine it would destroy it outright.

Each venger would average to a POW 31.5 hit with blessed, so on a Stormwall that's about 11/12 damage per hit. If all of them got in, you'd probably be looking at most of the boxes gone (which is impressive for cavalry), but again, that won't finish the job.

It won't take out a colossal, but it'll kill some of the Gargantuans outright.

[Soulblighter]

That said, with their S&P effect and Ignite, they'd be able to do some good damage on the charge, but they won't scrap one by themselves.

In theory they could scrap one by themselves. POW18 + 4d6 on the charge, drop the lowest is doing ~30 damage. So if five Vengers charge a Stormwall thats like 50+ damage on average.

But in practice thats just not going to work because of the way people are going to bubble wrap models around their Colossals to prevent them from being charged like that.

[PG_ICleadpeople]

You are not going to be bubble wrapping that much stuff against SPD 8 and having an 18 to 20 point model to pay for. I have 10 Vengers coming in the mail, cantt wait.

[PG_ICleadpeople]

double post.

[Gavriel]

Since Kreoss3 has such good Jack Support I don't think Vengers are your end all be all for him. He can give a reckoner a monstrous threat range and set you up for some pretty brutal assassinations with force hammer.

Don't forget that he's a powerful assassin in his own right. If you can get a lane, you can feat to strip enemy buffs, cast ignite on kreoss for free, charge with a 13" threat, impact with mat 8 to clear infantry in the way, and swing at mat 10 pow 18 with blessed, crit fire, and signs and portents, followed by buying additional mat 8 pow 16's. That'll kill most casters easily.

[darisus]

Since Kreoss3 has such good Jack Support I don't think Vengers are your end all be all for him. He can give a reckoner a monstrous threat range and set you up for some pretty brutal assassinations with force hammer.

Don't forget that he's a powerful assassin in his own right. If you can get a lane, you can feat to strip enemy buffs, cast ignite on kreoss for free, charge with a 13" threat, impact with mat 8 to clear infantry in the way, and swing at mat 10 pow 18 with blessed, crit fire, and signs and portents, followed by buying additional mat 8 pow 16's. That'll kill most casters easily.

Since he is a cavalry caster doesn't he also get cav bonuses like tall in the saddle and the +2 mat on the charge? I forget if this applies to mounted warcasters or not too?

[jandrese]

Yeah, he can make impact attacks and do ride by attacks as well. Ride by Attacks with spellcasting could really reduce the need for an arc node too, especially if you have the Hierophant with you.

[PG_dungeongod]

Since he is a cavalry caster doesn't he also get cav bonuses like tall in the saddle and the +2 mat on the charge? I forget if this applies to mounted warcasters or not too?

He does, but Tall in the Saddle only applies when they are checking Line of Sight for charges. He can ignore smaller based models intervening between him and a model for melee attacks though, since he is a cavalry model.

[Lanz]

In theory they could scrap one by themselves. POW18 + 4d6 on the charge, drop the lowest is doing ~30 damage. So if five Vengers charge a Stormwall thats like 50+ damage on average.

But in practice thats just not going to work because of the way people are going to bubble wrap models around their Colossals to prevent them from being charged like that.

All things considered, Vengers are still ideal for this role, because they get that S&P effect on their impact attacks too, making them much more effective.

However, while the math says it would barely work, I expect that it will pretty much always fall short. That said, they do come close, and knowing that when you go in, you just have to have something on standby to either soften it up or finish it off, and beyond that, the Vengers can do a lot of the heavy lifting.

[darisus]

All things considered, Vengers are still ideal for this role, because they get that S&P effect on their impact attacks too, making them much more effective.

However, while the math says it would barely work, I expect that it will pretty much always fall short. That said, they do come close, and knowing that when you go in, you just have to have something on standby to either soften it up or finish it off, and beyond that, the Vengers can do a lot of the heavy lifting.

Here's what the vengers need to finish a colassal... it's Gravus. Seriously, if you are running a few units and maybe a few errants or knights, gravus with his full soul load will mess up a good portion of a colassal for you, not to mention his dispel on hit to remove any buffs. I had a gravus with full soul load and a harm(ignite on him would have worked too) on a stormwall take out one half of it. 28 points of damage from a 5 point dragoon ain't too shabby, couple venger hits after that and it should go down pretty easy and give them a nice cover marker to hide in after.

[allenamenvergeben]

11 points of vengers destroying a 20 point collossal with just one charge would be pretty absurd. Just compare that to the Avatar who would probably also not get the job done (havent done the math). But 11 points of vengers nearly killing a collossal is pretty impressive in my opinion.

[Bollster]

Yeah, if I can pay 11 points for Vengers, 5 for Gravus and cycle Ignite around onto both of them and they tear a massive chunk out of a Gargossal, then I'm laughing, especially because they'll almost guaranteed have pathfinder over the massive wreck they just created, assuming some survive. But I concur that really, with Kreoss3, I'd be packing FoS and possibly a Templar or Reckoner at bare minimum and expecting them to do the heavy hitting, one or two Vengers can finish an almost done job.

[Menite troll]

Ignited Avatar (P+S 23) with 4 foc will do only 36 damage on average to arcanshielded Stormwall. And near 50 to non shielded. So vengers are way better than even ignited Avatar because they always have blessed lances.

[allenamenvergeben]

Vengers also dont care so much about covering fire than other infantry.

Btw does damage from covering fire trigger battle-driven?

[Menite troll]

No. It isnt an attack.