Proxying the Judicator...

[SteakAndSpirits]

Proxying the Judicator...

...whose been doing it, what kind of lists have you had it land in, and what kind of results have you gotten?

-s&s

[Rinion]

It'll be much easier when War Room is out! At least i'll be trying it then

[bouncymischa]

I've got a tentative list in mind to try that spams rockets everywhere (Judicator, two Redeemers, max Deliverers, and two Sunbursts), but I'm waiting until I can get an actual copy of the book to try it. I also don't expect it'll be terribly effective, but it'll be fun to try. :P

[Silverstar843]

to be clear, it has 2 redeemer rockets that are treated as one weapon, 2 POW 16 fists, and 2 Repenter sprays for weapons?
I don't know anything about its special rules other than it gets 1 free focus every turn. Guessing Spd 4, standard Protectorate warjack MAT and RAT, defense 10 armor 19?

[Alzer]

Not quite Silverstar. The rockets trade 2" range for +2 pow and have "secondary blast" or some such. Fists are Pow 20, and the ONLY special rule (besides extra rockets) is the 1 free focus.

Bouncy that sounds like a hilariously fun list.

[Silverstar843]

so they are range 14 and pow 14? WOW! This will be in every list I run ever. I thought it was just a single gun with ROF 3 and you get 2 shots each time it fires. How do they work exactly?

[gaminguy]

As I understand it they work like Hern and Johnn; find the impact point for the first rocket, scatter a second AoE from ther. Rinse and repeat with the second one.

[Blarmb]

so they are range 14 and pow 14? WOW! This will be in every list I run ever. I thought it was just a single gun with ROF 3 and you get 2 shots each time it fires. How do they work exactly?

It has two Rocket Pods. Each rocket pod has Rate of Fire 1, and AoE3. After determining the location which a shot with a rocket pod will hit, you roll a second deviation (both distance and direction) from that point and center a second AoE 3 on the point determined by the deviation.

This means from one combat action, each rocket pod gives you two AoEs ,for a total for 4 AoEs from both pods. At least two of those AoEs will deviate.

[Gaston]

I've proxied it a few times, with moderate results. I use it with eSevvy to make it immune to spells, ranged attacks, and a damage roll.

In one game it dice failed horribly on Ol' Rowdy (go figure), and in the other two games it killed a Stormwall and a Woldwrath; rocket pods were moderately useful in all of the games, never got to the point where I'd use the flame throwers once though.

[Blackraine]

Do we know, yet, whether the secondary blast only triggers off of initial attacks? If not, the Vassal just found a new best friend. eFeora's Bonded Judicator + 2 Vassals = 8 fire-causing AoE's a turn!

[Gaston]

Do we know, yet, whether the secondary blast only triggers off of initial attacks? If not, the Vassal just found a new best friend. eFeora's Bonded Judicator + 2 Vassals = 8 fire-causing AoE's a turn!

It triggers off of ancillary attacks as well

[Spyde]

Its rockets are Like chain Blast

with the pow14 range 14 as said above.

Spd is same as Crusader
Defense is -2 from Crusader
Arm is +1 of Crusader

Mat and Rat is the Reckoner.


Bonded with Efeora + Vassal
6x Aoe 3's that cause cont fire. Innacurate


Only casters i can see myself using it with are Efeora (bonded + Escort) Harby(crusader call) pSevvy(Choir+EyE)

its to slow for its cost to not want increased speed to me.

[Spyde]

Do we know, yet, whether the secondary blast only triggers off of initial attacks? If not, the Vassal just found a new best friend. eFeora's Bonded Judicator + 2 Vassals = 8 fire-causing AoE's a turn!

Sorry, but models can only be effected by Ancil attack once a turn.. so 6 instead of 8.

[jandrese]

Edit: ^^^^^^ Dang You!

You can only ancillary attack a model once per turn though, so a max of 6 AoEs.

[jandrese]

Anyway, I've proxied the Judicator a couple of times and it seems to be pretty solid. One thing I like about it is between the free focus and the large number of guns it can be fairly focus efficient. You get four AoE 3 POW 9s for no focus investment at all, and one of the damage (or attack) rolls can be boosted. I never got much use out of the flamethrowers though, might have just been the situation though. I'm wondering if people are going to play 75 points more where the focus efficiency will be a big deal.

I had Defenders Ward on it both times and it never took serious damage either time. I don't have enough data points to know if this will be a common occurrence or if it was just the situation though.

[spelljammer]

I've played 3 games with the Judicator: 2 with pSevy, and one (yesterday) with TOM. My game yesterday was against a friend who plays Cygnar so he also brought a Stormwall.

My impressions so far are disappointing. Having inaccurate on the rockets is a big deal. During the game last night I wanted to shoot his Stormstrider. I needed to move up, so my choices were have the choir chant battle and have a RAT of 3, or protect myself from all the guns that Cygnar had and have a RAT of 1. In either case I was probably going to have to boost to make sure I hit.

I don't find the rockets that effective at clearing infantry. With the Vassal I thought that 6 3" AOE blasts would decimate infantry but across all my games I've found that in general the scatters really limit the damage, and my opponents are smart enough to space their infantry out so that a 3" AOE is just not covering a lot of models. So, it seems to struggle to do much against infantry, and the inaccurate guns make it hard to put much damage on heavier models.

My next game I'm going to try playing the Judicator a bit different. Rather than treating it like a gun platform I'm going to treat it like a melee jack with guns. Run it forward, jam it down my opponents throat, and do opportunistic shooting along the way.

I don't want to start a comparison between the Judicator and the Stormwall, but I want to say that when I played against the Stormwall it was pretty much everything I thought a $135 19 point center piece model should be. It has nice synergies with its army (pods + what that does with the storm callers), nice shooting and melee capabilities and access to warcasters with buffs that apply naturally to it. PPS made the Stormwall a piece that really plays well.

The Judicator, though, is big and stompy, but brings nothing new. It doesn't enhance some part of the army, and it doesn't really bring anything new. I'm not going to argue its bad, it's just not what I feel a center piece model, that I'm being asked to spend $135-ish on, and takes up 18 points in my army, should be. I look at the cool abilities on the stormwall or the woldwrath and I just don't get why we couldn't have gotten something that brings something new and interesting to our faction.

[Outbreak]

spelljammer, I know you want to try melee next time around, but also consider boosting blast damage instead of the attack roll. If you roll a deviation of distance of 1" or 2" on the 3" AOE it will still hit the original target with the blast, so throw you're 3 (+1 for vassal) AoE's into the (probably at least decently spaced) group of stromcallers and when a template overlaps someone boost damage. Might help you get the extra mileage you're looking for.

[Blackraine]

I think the Pod/Stormcaller synergy is a good example of what all of the Colossals should have done (and, for that matter, the WoldWrath's animus is a good example of what all the Gargantuans should have done). However, we have the tools to make the Judicator work, and I don't see the requirement of taking the tools as a sufficient reason to complain. I'll likely never field the Judicator without a Choir and a Reckoner, but I rarely field *any* ranged list without a Choir and a Reckoner, so I don't see it as a Judicator specific requirement.

Just like Nemo makes the Stormwall stupid, we have casters that make the Judicator stupid. I may never play pSeverius at 50 points without a pair of Judicators once it comes out. Throwing Death Sentence and -2 DEF from flare on a model equates to certain death when 6 POW 17 (probably boosted) Judicator rockets come screaming in its direction. eFeora, as well, will never leave home without a bonded Judicator. If the redeemer was an auto-include with her, the Judicator is a super-auto-include. Harby's going to love having a huge immovable base to hide behind even moreso than she liked a pair of Templars, and Thyra won't mind having a huge base (with reach) providing a 8 3/4" diameter zone of "move through here and die" that she can run right up to the enemy army, then charge through for the win. I also can wait to see how much damage he's going to do on eKreoss' or pKreoss' feat turn... auto-hitting POW 22's on everything within reach of your 4 3/4" base (with sweep) is going to be silly.

[Outbreak]

I also can wait to see how much damage he's going to do on eKreoss' or pKreoss' feat turn... auto-hitting POW 22's on everything within reach of your 4 3/4" base (with sweep) is going to be silly.

The rockets pow isn't high enough to crack high arm, but a downed caster would be a delicious target for boosted rockets. Even Rat 1 can hit def 5

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

The rockets pow isn't high enough to crack high arm

...

Yes it is. It's pow 16. And with an aim and the choir buff you're looking at Rat 5, which can peg the defense of a lot of high armor models.

[Outbreak]

so I'm still right, and its still great at pegging downed casters. Isn't it printed 14 and gets to 16 with the choir?

[Spyde]

Judicator needs a speed buff to be good in melee.

Judicator needs specific help to be a shooting platform.. pkeross, a Reckoner to lower def, psevvy for another +1,

Lets do an ARM 18 heavy.

Charge it with Exemplar Seneschal, he will swing for 1st(Charge attack -31dmg average) 2nd - 21.5 dmg, Chain smite, 21.5 dmg Slammed - Knockdown
Judicator opens fire vs the now Def 5.. 2x Shots Boosted dmg (Choir buff) 26.5 + 26.5 (vassel Shot for another 23dmg)

42 dmg on Average.

We have to combo for effect.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

so I'm still right, and its still great at pegging downed casters. Isn't it printed 14 and gets to 16 with the choir?

Right that it can kill knocked down casters, wrong that the pow isn't high enough to crack armor. A boosted pow 16 is plenty for a gun.

And yes, it's base pow 14, 16 with the choir.

[Outbreak]

Right that it can kill knocked down casters, wrong that the pow isn't high enough to crack armor. A boosted pow 16 is plenty for a gun.
And yes, it's base pow 14, 16 with the choir.

I suppose i was wrong in saying in cant crack higher arm, but cracking is about all it can do. dice-3 certainly isnt bad, especially with 3 shots, and can really mess up casters with buffs or camping up to around 20 arm, but for jacks i'm under the belief their might well be more preferable targets. Thats assuming you kreoss feated, if you achieved the knockdown with a slam/smite then have a field day =P

[spelljammer]

...

Yes it is. It's pow 16. And with an aim and the choir buff you're looking at Rat 5, which can peg the defense of a lot of high armor models.

When you have played the Judicator how often did you find you were able to gain the aiming bonus? In the 3 games I've played I've found that I'm continually pressing forward. I can run the first turn, but after that I'm pretty much moving 4" and shooting. I haven't found a lot of opportunity to try and aim.

[jandrese]

For reference, my first game with the Judicator was against pButcher, a full MoWST, and a full MoWDC unit, plus Behemoth and maybe something else (it was awhile ago).

The Rockets utterly decimated the MoW. Granted, I was playing with pSevvy and had some good damage rolls, but POW 17 vs. ARM 21 means each direct hit (and I was directly hitting) was putting some serious damage on even a MoWST. And you kill the #2 MoWST, you can then shoot the #1 guy for straight dice damage! The blasts were even doing a little bit of damage (Dice - 7 on a MoWST if I deviated behind them, or Dice - 6 on a MoWDC).

My opponent conceded when I had wiped out both MoW units and hit both the Butcher with my feat. He didn't fancy his chances against those big guns and was very concerned about the fact that my model had Reach and thus a better threat range than the Behemoth.

That said, it was a fairly new player and I think different tactics might have worked better for him. I would play against that list again and expect to lose my Judicator if the rolls came out different. For one thing, he was still stuck on using Shieldwall every turn with the MoWST, which made his army so slow that I was able to get the aiming bonus with the Judicator.

[Stinkmeaner]

It's absolutely NOT great at pegging downed casters... It's 20 points of your army... You can get a Redeemer and a full unit of Idrians for almost the same point costs... And I assure you that 3 POW 16s (2 boosted) is less damage to a caster than 4 POW 14S(1 BOOSTED) AND 12 pow 13S... Judicator is just bad IMHO, and I don't see how it made it through the playtest and dev crew and came out with such poor stats. Innacurate is pointless and the Flamers are silly... I am just glad people are starting to see the same thing. I called this thing bad from day 1 and my opinion hasn't changed a bit.

[Spyde]

Odd, ive only seen the same 2-3 people calling it bad over and over.

[Lanz]

Odd, ive only seen the same 2-3 people calling it bad over and over.

Now you know who you can ignore.

Chances are the majority of them are the same people who claim nearly everything else in the faction is bad without any real evidence anyways.

[Alzer]

Can we not have another one of those threads? Please?

[Spyde]

I have to say im surprised its gone this far without endless amounts of.. Stormwall is the beez kneez, best thing since sliced bread, the new Cryx, Auto win Machine of doom(and lightningness), Warm apple pie ?, Should have been 22pts, Stuff.

[Silverstar843]

Now you know who you can ignore.

LOL

another question about them: Colossals can shoot in melee, but can they aim while there?

[spelljammer]

I never got much use out of the flamethrowers though, might have just been the situation though.

This is different from my experience. I've found the flamers to be reasonably useful. By turn 2 or 3 (depending on army closing speeds) I'm usually using the flamers. In the last game I even put damage on an ARM 21 (Arcane Shield) Storm Strider with my flamers. In fact I used my flamers for 2 (3? - gosh it was only yesterday and I'm already forgetting) turns.

I kind of like the twin flamers. Sure, I wish they had incinerate or flamewall, but I find them useful none-the-less.

[spelljammer]

I am just glad people are starting to see the same thing. I called this thing bad from day 1 and my opinion hasn't changed a bit.

Can we please not go here? I believe I said disappointed. I don't feel like with only 3 games under my belt with 2 different warcasters and only 2 different opponents I'm ready to decide anything.

[Stinkmeaner]

Now you know who you can ignore.

Chances are the majority of them are the same people who claim nearly everything else in the faction is bad without any real evidence anyways.

Yup, and in case you cant read between the lines, I will translate this post "now you know who you can ignore" implying ignore the people that are saying that they think differently than some of posters, which feel the Judicator is OK. SO, in short, 'join us, ignore the people that have different opinions, regardless of the facts that they use' ..... Then, he uses some yellow journalism and makes gross exagerations and puts words in others mouths to attempt to discredit an opinion he is GENERALIZING and providing no supporting facts, and therefor creating a division.... so listen to him if you want and ignore the people that have differing opinions, but don't join in on the attacking of other players, it's unproductive

[Stinkmeaner]

Can we please not go here? I believe I said disappointed. I don't feel like with only 3 games under my belt with 2 different warcasters and only 2 different opponents I'm ready to decide anything.

I didn't lump you in, or quote you at all, just mentioned that some people are starting to see some of the HUGE negatives with this model. I think it's just poorly designed. Again, you were NOT quoted, nor did I even have you specifically in mind... I actually dont read names, just read posts... I only read names when I see someone attacking me, which I dont do, I attack ideas, not people.

[Lanz]

Yup, and in case you cant read between the lines, I will translate this post "now you know who you can ignore" implying ignore the people that are saying that they think differently than some of posters, which feel the Judicator is OK. SO, in short, 'join us, ignore the people that have different opinions, regardless of the facts that they use' ..... Then, he uses some yellow journalism and makes gross exagerations and puts words in others mouths to attempt to discredit an opinion he is GENERALIZING and providing no supporting facts, and therefor creating a division.... so listen to him if you want and ignore the people that have differing opinions, but don't join in on the attacking of other players, it's unproductive

Wait, are you talking about me, or you?

Either way you can, ya know, actually put the model down on the table and actually use it. I don't have a problem with differing opinions, I just find it tedious and repetitive when the same handful of people keep complaining about models that aren't even out yet.

It's far less productive to condemn a model to useless before it's even been put through its paces. At least if everyone were convinced it was good, they'd actually have the chance to try it out themselves and see how it works for them. Your opinion is nothing but vitriol which would sooner see players quit the faction than actually produce any positive results.

What do you honestly expect would be the result of your side of your opinions here? If people agreed with you, what then? Everyone uses the same slim range of models because nothing else is worth it? People stop buying minis? People drop out of the faction because it's perceived to be weak? What good does any of that do? It would be different if anything you said had any validity, but pretty much everything you condemn goes on to do well in the hands of many players.

What you fail to grasp is that something doesn't have to be perfect to be useful, and it doesn't have to be the best use of points to play an integral role in a list.

[jandrese]

When I start to see a lot of salmon pink in a thread, I tend to bail on it.

Also, one thing to watch out for with all Colossals: Sweep is not Thresher. It's not even half Thresher. Because it is a power attack, you can't Sweep on a charge. This tripped me up in one game, where I spent the focus and then realized that I was only going to get a regular charge out of it. It's alright though, because three more attacks were enough to get the job done anyway, but it's something to be careful of.

[Mod_Plarzoid]

Please stay on topic. Don't bait or attack other forum members. Everyone's allowed to have an opinion, and it may not be the same as your own.

Debate the merits of the idea, not the people that have them.

[Stinkmeaner]

Wait, are you talking about me, or you?

Either way you can, ya know, actually put the model down on the table and actually use it. I don't have a problem with differing opinions, I just find it tedious and repetitive when the same handful of people keep complaining about models that aren't even out yet.

It's far less productive to condemn a model to useless before it's even been put through its paces. At least if everyone were convinced it was good, they'd actually have the chance to try it out themselves and see how it works for them. Your opinion is nothing but vitriol which would sooner see players quit the faction than actually produce any positive results.

What do you honestly expect would be the result of your side of your opinions here? If people agreed with you, what then? Everyone uses the same slim range of models because nothing else is worth it? People stop buying minis? People drop out of the faction because it's perceived to be weak? What good does any of that do? It would be different if anything you said had any validity, but pretty much everything you condemn goes on to do well in the hands of many players.

What you fail to grasp is that something doesn't have to be perfect to be useful, and it doesn't have to be the best use of points to play an integral role in a list.

The plain and simple truth is, if people complain enough, PP will fix it. They will do SOMETHING to a model that isnt getting purchased and played. I do not want people to drop out of the faction, not at all. But I do expect people to look at a model, compare its point costs and usefulness to other models, and decide if it's worth playing. Not every model IS a homerun. You keep condemning me for saying that PP has made some bad choices. They are people too, and subject to the same laws and rules that the rest of us are. They have to stop at stop lights, eat regularly, and pay taxes. they have relationship troubles, personality issues, and in all fairness, have their own ideas when it comes to factions. Thats just how life works. Thats the people that make the decisions, and if they come to a decision that is NOT liked by the player community, they will fix it. But they need to be told. In addition they need to learn along the way. And the only way they LEARN is through negative responses. But it has to be productive, not just "this model is teh sux" But say WHY you think it is bad. I think I have been pretty open about my feelings on bad models and WHY I think they are bad or certain processes are bad. In the end, it's not all sunshine and rainbows... But with open communication, it could get that way.