Proxying the Judicator...

[Hasten]

A Judicator that shoots rockets off all game will only earn a fraction of its points back. But if a Judicator kills two or more warjacks/warbeasts it's just earned its points back easily. So melee is really where the Judicator makes itself worth the points. I just have a really hard time justifying a model costing 18 points unless its going to kill at least two heavies for me.

The distinction between the two sides of this discussion is becoming pretty fuzzy to me. One side has been saying*:

"Sure, you're going to melee, but you should really make use of the shooting as much as possible!"

While the other half is saying*:

"Sure, you're going to shoot, but you should really make use of the fists as much as possible!"

Porque no los dos?

-H

*edit -- Or at least, is largely saying.

[Silverstar843]

Guys, the game is typically won in melee. The game was designed so that sitting back and shooting is less advantageous and effective than charging in and smashing things. You have to pay a premium for anything that can shoot, and a shot or two will not wreck a heavy before it gets to you and stops the shooting.

[Del Fuego]

So... word on the grapevine is that the Hyperion may be making a GenCon prerelease appearance. Has anyone heard if I'm going to have the chance to go beyond just proxying this bad boy when I head for Indy?

[jandrese]

The odds are looking pretty slim for wide release earlier than a November-December release. There is a chance for an Indy pre-release if you're willing to assemble and paint quickly though.

[Billbzly]

I am starting to get a little peeved.

I love PP, they got me back into wargaming, but the lack of release info and actual photos of both our colossal and eeKreoss is now starting to annoy me.

Khdor have been looking at conquest and eeVlad for some time.

Cygnar are the same with eeNemo and Stormwall.

Cryx? Yep, kraken and their ee is there as well.

Hyperion is up now (not too sure about their caster).

What about us? I am sick of looking at the main page every day to see nothing for my faction.

Please, correct me if I am wrong.

And PP, I am still going to spend my wages on your cool little dudes, but I jest feel that we need a little more love.

[Snipafist]

My understanding is Protectorate and Skorne stuff typically gets released last because all the filigree work takes longer to work into a model.

[Demeritus]

My understanding is Protectorate and Skorne stuff typically gets released last because all the filigree work takes longer to work into a model.

Not as sure about Skorne but I certainly was told that about Protectorate in fact it is usually the 1st to go into the whole process because of the time it takes for the detail involved.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

And man, is it worth the wait. I don't remember the last time we had a bad looking model. Rhoven and Co is the last one I can think of.

I think the Vessel was the best looking of all the battle engines, and the Judicator is shaping up to be the same.

[Billbzly]

Fair enough, and yes we do get some great looking pieces, I am just impatient.

I'm going to look at the art again, in the dark, with a candle, rubbing Thyra on my nipple to see if that works.

Will let you know......

[squidstudios]

Is there anything fancy about the Judicator's sprays? Standard Repenter sprays, or are we looking at something bigger/better? Do they get the same ability to shoot while in melee? I've been out of the loop and off the boards for ages...

The appeal for me currently is the aesthetic of this giant. It otherwise seems like a jack that falls into my "less likable" category, unless I'm just playing for funzorz with loads of rocket spam and opportunistic mayhem. Not "unlikable" mind you, but too convoluted to fall into a specific role...beyond the obvious damage cushion and mobile wall. PoM's ranged options are a little too wonky for my tastes, being able to probably maybe damage almost anything some of the time.

PS: I'd love to run this thing with the High Reclaimer.
PPS: Don't mind my opinions. I know nothing about anything.

[Soulblighter]

Is there anything fancy about the Judicator's sprays? Standard Repenter sprays, or are we looking at something bigger/better? Do they get the same ability to shoot while in melee? I've been out of the loop and off the boards for ages...

Standard repenter sprays. They can shoot while in melee but it doesnt have weapons platform so you have to give up your initial melee attacks.

[Sanguinary Dan]

Can you still buy additional melee attacks? Or does shooting stop you from doing that at all?

[squidstudios]

You can still buy melee attacks.

Do the rockets on the Judicator have weapons platform? Or are they in the same "shoot em and pay for punches" category?

[Masanori]

my understanding, it's not a platform. so if u shoot u can only by shooting

[Silverstar843]

And man, is it worth the wait. I don't remember the last time we had a bad looking model. Rhoven and Co is the last one I can think of.

I remember! It was whatever model they made last!

Yeah, I hate all the models...Honestly, the Vessel is probably the only one in the Protectorate line that I really like.

[Bartacus]

I remember! It was whatever model they made last!

Yeah, I hate all the models...Honestly, the Vessel is probably the only one in the Protectorate line that I really like.

You're kidding right, ........right?

In case you aren't:

1) Why do you play PoM?
2) What factions aesthetic ticks your box?

[PG_Noddin_Dog]

1 thing I dont remember, are the rockets dmg type fire, or just standard dmg? Makes a big difference if you need to deal with Gorman. My book hasnt arrived yet!

[jandrese]

They are untyped damage, just like the Redeemer.

[Rez]

Sure it does. Youre paying points for something you arnt using. Thats the definition of waste.

And I dont think anyone is gonna hestitate coming close... colossals besides the galleon and stormwall dont really scare me at all.

That seems like a really silly statement. Holding back important pieces till they are best utilized is how you play the game. Look at something like Nicia, do you charge her off into the very first thing you see? No. You hold her back until a worthy piece presents itself and your happy to trade her for it. I won't be in any rush to commit Judy to a fight - identify which pieces can cripple Judy, eliminate them through focus fire, commit other jacks first and use Judy to then win those piece trades. If by end game you a Colossal left and your opponent has a single heavy, who is going to win that fight? You get into those positions by not committing pieces too early. If you sen Judy into an enemy heavy first opportunity you get, canny opponents will recognise this and bait you into unfavorable trades.

Also the focus efficiency aspect can't be under stated. I'm planning on running Judy, a Reckoner and a Vanquisher in my eFeora list. For a measly 4 focus investment you can do 33 dmg on average to an arm 19 heavy. From across the board. Vanq has to get close but that's what Enlive and jamming infantry are for. Drop a heavy a turn, piece trade the Vanquish first and your opponent will very quickly run out of things to deal with a Colossal.

[Silverstar843]

You're kidding right, ........right?

nope

In case you aren't:

1) Why do you play PoM?

First faction, went undefeated in MK I, love Kreoss, love religious zealots, like fire, and I love massive damage.

2) What factions aesthetic ticks your box?

none, they are all ugly as ****. If I had to pick one, I'd vote Circle (who were the faction I started once Hordes came out). Circle looks the least ridiculous to me. If I played the game or picked a faction based on aesthetics, I would never have started.

nitpicking problems with model line: exemplar hats, eSevy (really you'll go into battle like that?), Feora and Thyra have high-heeled armor, zealot shot-put guy is awful, jacks look silly with the tiny legs and the massive shoulders, choir is kind of statically posed. The zealot model and the choir I can understand as those were original models, but they are horrible.

[spelljammer]

I just played my fourth game with the Judicator this weekend. I used ToM again (2nd time), against Khador (Harkovich). I also picked up the Colossals book.

I'm starting to feel a little better about the Judicator. I'm not having any luck decimating infantry with the rockets, but the rockets and flamers together are pretty deadly. I got charged by the conquest this game and survived. With 1 arm left I was nearly able to take down the Conquest, and Harkovich even had his feat up.

I'm still really disliking the inaccurate rule - I wish it had been -2 rather than -4, but the Judicator is surprisingly survivable. It feels like its more of a medium range Colossal where it can bring the rockets and flamers to bear, and even get a charge in.

After reading the other entries I feel like there are two classes of Colossals: The Stormwall, and then all the others. I'm not claiming the Stormwall is broken - just that it brings so much more to its faction then any of the others.

One thing I did notice is that the Stormwall and Judicator are the only two Colossals that got S systems that aren't guns. I like Reliquary more than a gun system as it is a bit more unique, though it would have been nice to have something as unique as what the Stormwall got.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to a few more proxy games with the Judicator. The rockets haven't been great for clearing out infantry, but every game they have killed a couple important solos. The secondary blast has a nice little side effect where if you hit a heavy, you still have the secondary blast that will bounce off it and can get stuff with it (2 games ago I was able to take out Gorman from this effect).

[PG_KestrelM1]

Played a quick 50p game the other day with a proxy Judicator, in the following list:

Feora2
- Judicator (Bonded)
- Reckoner
- Sanctifier
Min Choir of Menoth
2xVassal of Menoth
2xVassal Mechanik
10 Holy Zealots + UA
Visgoth Rhoven & Honor Guard
3 Wracks

Against:
Amon
- 4xDervish
- Redeemer
- Crusader
- Reckoner
2xMin Choir
Min Idrians + UA
Max Zealots + UA

We played the Command and Control SR2012 scenario, though it barely came into play.

He went first and ran everything up. The Judicator didn't have a lot of targets thanks to Passage. However he did manage to snipe out a zealot before the lines closed.

His Zealots minifeated and rushed into my lines, with the Dervishes and Reckoner in a neat line behind them ready to counter-charge. I clumped up my Zealots, minifeated, and then the Judicator put 2 boosted rockets into a non-passaged Dervish, scoring 1 direct and about 2 deviation hits, which took out all but movement and left arm. Then I ancillary'd a rocket into my own Zealots (I should have used the flamethrowers - forgot about the completely!) lighting them all on fire. Feora then feated and set all of HIS zealots on fire, making them unhappy campers. I camped a total of 3 focus on her.

On his turn his zealots all burned to a crisp (auto-POW12 vs ARM12 will do that), down a jack and a unit and in rough shape, he decided to make a play for Feora. The Idrians CRA'd Feora (who was their prey) but did no damage. Amon feated, and he put two dervishes onto Feora (after Side-Stepping off of the Zealots and Judicator) with +2 and +3 from Synergy. However, they only managed a couple damage against her ARM22.

On my turn I cleared out a lane by beating down a Dervish with my Reckoner (with the help of an Ancillary) and put the Judicator with 4 Focus into Flamethrower range of Amon. He was sitting pretty at DEF20 behind a linear obstacle, but that only meant 9s to hit for two Flamethrowers. One flamethrower missed, but the other managed to nail him, dropping him to about 4 boxes on boosted damage (at straight dice). After that I shot the rocket pods at him (needing 17s and obviously missing), but I deviated onto him with the first pod and boosted damage to finish him off.

Lesson learned - the Judicator has Flamethrowers. Never forget about them, as they're useful for lighting your own zealots on fire for eFeora feat tricks AND for killing enemy warcasters dead. I really should have put the flamethrowers into my own zealots and used the Ancillary rocket pod to light some Idrians on fire.

I also learned 4 focus is just as good as I thought it was. Even against a Dervish (DEF13), between a direct hit and a boosted blast damage roll, I took out about 3/4 of the warjack. The 4th focus also let me boost a blast on Amon, which secured me the win.

Overall I'm quite pleased.

[PG_KestrelM1]

Edit: Double Post.

I'll fill this space by saying that the Flamethrowers are a very legit assassination tool, especially since you don't really need LoS if you can get a good angle. Boosted RAT7 POW14s + continuous fire that doesn't go out kills most warcasters, from a healthy 14" away.

I also liked the Sanctifier, though he didn't get to do very much this game. Having an independent warjack to hang around and protect the Zealots was nice so I could dump focus into the Judicator or simply keep it for Feora.

[PG_strangedane]

I'll fill this space by saying that the Flamethrowers are a very legit assassination tool, especially since you don't really need LoS if you can get a good angle. Boosted RAT7 POW14s + continuous fire that doesn't go out kills most warcasters, from a healthy 14" away.

I can vouch for this! My eFeora always brings 2 repenters, making that threat 15"! For only 8 pts!

[PG_n00buaddib]

I've played a few games now proxying it in my modified eFeora list. My expectations were: bonded jack instead of Reckoner to rain fiery death upon foes of the creator. + a decent melee beatstick to boot. The list changed from my usual:

-eFeora
-Reckoner
-Redeemer
-Sanctifier
-Vanquisher
-full Choir
-full Errants+UA+Senny
-Gorman
-Rhupert
-Covenant
-2 Vassals

to

-eFeora
-Judicator
-Reckoner
-Sanctifier
-full Choir
-eEiryss
-Gorman
-full Zealots + MB
-Vassal mech
-2 Vassals

I had to drop Errants in favour of cheaper Zealots and in case anyone is wondering, I need 2 extra heavies even with colossal. Everyone here's keen on heavy beasts/jacks and I need stuff to kill them. It's a meta thing so it may be a different experience but that's how it is. Played a few games now vs Khador and Legion with this list and it's...interesting.

Melee ability is solid. Given the chance and the reach it can scrap 2 heavies/turn and with 4 focus, speed 6, mat 8 and p+s 24, this thing hurts. I buffed it to that and unleashed it just to see what it can do (wouldn't normally invest all those resources in a single turn because it's a complete overkill, unless you need to take down opponent's colossal) and it's...well it's brutal. Still, you need to be a bit more careful with it because the brilliant thing about it is, it's not hard to kill. It just takes longer. I love the concept.

Anywho, shooting. +2 power -2 range from Redeemer is honestly a wash for me, with redeemer's flare and choir's help you may be able to hit some big things and do some damage (power 16 is nice when it happens) but I do that in melee. What I take these rockets of death is for the auto fire 3'' pies so I wanted to see how 3+3 shots compare to 4. And again...I'd say it's a wash. Now these things scatter a lot and if first one goes 6 inches where it shouldn't, the second deviation doesn't usually do jack either. Make no mistake, these 3+3 shots make it much much worse at hitting what you want then flat 6 would, so they cover (kill) about as much as those 4 Redeemer missiles would, maybe a tad more. I've read about other people not using flamers too often, I haven't used them a single time. Dunno why, never had the chance I suppose. I honestly think he's worth those 18 pts without them (with eFeora anyway) but I know one game, I'll be happy they're there. Maybe more the one.

So. A great jack. Great melee and solid range (great range with eFeora), not an autoinclude by my standards but I wouldn't mind taking him to a serious tournament. That's ah high a praise as a model can get from me. Not just a fun piece to bring out every once in a while because you like the model. I love it. ^^


Also a highlight from my last game, he got charged by Typhon under pVayl (was in incite range) and... he killed it. Bloody bastard killed it practically solo, bar 8ish points which were done previously by a single Carni's spray. I was like ''right, let's see how this thing does against Legion'', I knew he could get Typhon on him with Slipstream + Leash but I thought there's no way in hell he can take it down solo. So he slipstreamed Vayl forward + full advance to get into incite range (very bald move), sprayed with Carni for power 16 spray and charged in Typhon for 6 p+s 19 attacks, one of them boosted. Not a single dice roll was under 9. If I wouldn't see Judicator survive tons of crap Khadorans threw at him, I'd... be losing faith. If anyone cares, both my heavies killed Raek, 3 of his heavies and a shredder with game coming to an epic conclusion with Vayl slinging spells at Feora next turn, killing her. If that colossal survived...

Edit: I just realised KestrelM1's list is almost the same as mine. How did that happen?

[Khaunshar]

Took him out for a spin with Thyra, replacing Avatar + BoM. Used him to quite great effect in the first 3 turns for acrobatics-moving through the massive base with Daughters, Nicia and Thyra, but in the end, I won by goold old regular Corbeau + Feat assassination on turn 4.

The primary problem here was that I just couldnt afford the focus to run him at max efficiency, and without fire his rockets are not that creepy. With the advent of colossals we have seen a shift towards high-ARM infantry in my meta, and while blast 9 is actually quite okay, its far from reliable. He did wreck both a Seether and a Cankerworm, though, but otherwise took down a pitiful 4 bane knights.

Aside from eFeora and pSeverius, I fail to see relevant synergies. He MIGHT be ok with Reznik, because witch hound is just nasty on him, and if you pair him up with Sanctifier or Avatar, you have just become about THE worst case matchup for a lot of the prime tournament casters who rely on magic to get the job done.

Possible list:

High Executioner Servath Reznik (*6pts)
Avatar of Menoth (11pts)
Choir of Menoth (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts)
Exemplar Bastions (Leader and 4 Grunts) (8pts)
Holy Zealots (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts)
* Holy Zealot Monolith Bearer (2pts)
The Wrack (3 wracks) (1pts)
Vassal of Menoth (2pts)
Judicator (18pts)

But its really not a very elegant list, its just truly annoying for many magic-reliant casters to play against.

[jandrese]

Also a highlight from my last game, he got charged by Typhon under pVayl (was in incite range) and... he killed it. Bloody bastard killed it practically solo, bar 8ish points which were done previously by a single Carni's spray. I was like ''right, let's see how this thing does against Legion'', I knew he could get Typhon on him with Slipstream + Leash but I thought there's no way in hell he can take it down solo. So he slipstreamed Vayl forward + full advance to get into incite range (very bald move), sprayed with Carni for power 16 spray and charged in Typhon for 6 p+s 19 attacks, one of them boosted. Not a single dice roll was under 9. If I wouldn't see Judicator survive tons of crap Khadorans threw at him, I'd... be losing faith. If anyone cares, both my heavies killed Raek, 3 of his heavies and a shredder with game coming to an epic conclusion with Vayl slinging spells at Feora next turn, killing her. If that colossal survived...

Heh, my local legion player is the same way. Scythian charges needing 8s to hit and he won't even both boosting and get the chain attack every time. I figure the odds have to catch up to him some day.

[Lanz]

Heh, my local legion player is the same way. Scythian charges needing 8s to hit and he won't even both boosting and get the chain attack every time. I figure the odds have to catch up to him some day.

Lucky him. My scythean never hits without a boost, even it it only needs 6s.

[Matthaeus]

Guys, the game is typically won in melee. The game was designed so that sitting back and shooting is less advantageous and effective than charging in and smashing things. You have to pay a premium for anything that can shoot, and a shot or two will not wreck a heavy before it gets to you and stops the shooting.

I don't see how that applies to Protectorate warjacks. The Crusader is just pure beatstickery with no ranged premium, and how often do you see people taking one over a Reckoner or Vanquisher ?

[PG_n00buaddib]

That's hardly a fair comparison Matthaeus. Reckoner is MUCH better in melee then Crusader, having assault (and flare gun), +3 inches threat range and so on. Vanquisher has a really good gun. Imo better then Defender (fills a different role obviously) and they're still both 8 pts, which is a ridiculously low price for such awesome jacks, especially considering the non-Warcaster support they get.

Crusader will get its time in the sun one day. I know one of our Cryx players runs Morty tier with 5 pts Slayers for fun, and it's strangely effective. Ever faced 10+ heavy jacks that charge for free, have boosted attack rolls against living and all? You may laugh at p+s 15 or 16 or whatever they are (I did :P ) but those things add up and can hurt even Khadoran heavies. Anywho, all we need is a pButcher-ish caster (full throttle, sacrificial pawn,...) with maybe a tier discount for heavies. I'd totally play that.

[Matthaeus]

Oh, I agree, I just thought Silverstar's statement was not showing the whole picture

I will be praying Menoth for that dream caster to become incarnate in Amon2.

[Voltimor]

"removed the I wish "

But i think it work out somehow you need to add some trash infront of it so units like banes and other cannot trash it in 1 turn. Stormwall has that pretty Covering fire infront of it makes it hard for most units to get near it. Need to thing about how to protect it and how it can justify 18 points that may get crushed in 1 turn agians some lists. Is just alot of points you hope that it does something before your oppenent breaks your toy.

Maybe Flameguard infront of it to play roadblock.