Mountain King: are you really worth buying?

[Magnus0740]

When I saw the mountain king and heard it was going to be availible at Lock & Load, and I'm sure at Gen Con I've been saving up for it. But after reading the rules on the big guy I'm wondering if it's really worth the money? I also play Mercs so I want the Gallon as well. I might just wait and go back to Mercs.... What say all of you?

[Navarp]

I am still hoping that the rules are going to be updated. (i.e. the card included in the box with El Rey isn't the same as his stats will appear in the book.)

As it is now, I wouldn't say it was worth it, BUT it wouldn't take much to make him totally worth it, so if you buy it now it should just be considered a gamble. . .

[PG_jbarket]

I love Trolls dearly, and I think the Mountain King is one of the best sculpts in the game... but... look at his MAT, then weep. That's my advice.

I'm sure people will prove me wrong when he's available en masse, but for the time being, I can't get past that.

[PG_petegrrrr]

You should probably just check out some of the threads about it in the trollbloods forums.

[MagnustheJust]

... I think you already know what I am going to say.

[Deo85]

Hes a big troll that does what all the other big trolls do... I guess at this point your paying for the size of a large beat stick at best. The sculpt looks amazing but that is as much hype I can give the guy from all the data that has been released about him sadly.

[PeregrineP]

In all honesty, I bought him from L&L before we knew what he had just because I thought the sculpt was awesome. I still love the model but there are 125$ worth of troll models I'd probably rather own to fill out my troll forces before I'd pick him up.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

In all honesty, I bought him from L&L before we knew what he had just because I thought the sculpt was awesome. I still love the model but there are 125$ worth of troll models I'd probably rather own to fill out my troll forces before I'd pick him up.

Me too, me too... Man, I woke up really early to get that big guy. I'm really excited to finally paint it, but that's just about all I'm excited for. Had I known the stats, i probably just would've waited till his normal release.

[Neutralyze]

So if he was MAT 6 would the world rejoice?

[PG_TrollSlayer]

So if he was MAT/RAT 6 would the world rejoice?

Praise and worship, praise and worship...

[Drzombieface]

He's an expensive beatstick that punches things and sheds whelps.


If that's what you want, get one. If you want something else, don't get one.


Problem solved.

[Lawso42]

So if he was MAT 6 would the world rejoice?

I would actually contemplate bringing him at MAT 6.

Lawso

[Gavriel]

Is he an awesome model that will find use in your army? Yes

Could you get several models that will cover his game functionality and provide even more options to your troll army for the same price? Also yes.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

So if he was MAT 6 would the world rejoice?

For me he'd need Mat 6 and some more survivability. Either more boxes, or the ability to eat a whelp immediately instead of putting him into play.

[The Happy Anarchist]

Mat 6 wouldn't be enough. Mat 5 is really more the insult to the injury. Kill Shot not requiring living would help a lot. Having an animus that doesn't serve to make him Mat 5 for something that 6 points in two Champ Hero's doesn't do better would be nice.

Really, the three main things would be a good animus, Mat 6 and slightly more survivability. Either base ARM 20, slightly more boxes or being able to eat the whelps it generates during the enemy turn. Excessive Regeneration instead of whelp shedding and Amuck with Mat 6 wouldn't leave me rejoicing but would leave me willing to shell out for him. Playtesting has left me cold so far, but is ongoing.

To make the world rejoice? The Woldwrath's knockdown fist rules? A couple of thrown boulder ranged attacks? Or even one with maybe Rng 12? Something else I haven't thought of that is unique and adds as much to the faction as the Stormwall, Galleon and Woldwrath adds to thiers? Note, I don't need any of that to be okay with the model, that is just what would make me truly excited to pick the MtK up. Especially the last bit, anything at all that added to the faction like those models do. I do recognize that a lot of the Collossals don't add as much to their faction, like Conquest or Judicators and that is fine.

[PG_Mr. Mayhem]

The MAT would be nice, the animus is ok, but what really rankles me is that he's got 8 less boxes than other colossal/gargantuans so far.

[Humeriousdiscord]

I have him preordered because I like the model but....whelp shedding is cool but it seems to have caused a sacrifice of every other feature that would have made me buy the mountain king other than the look. I don't care about the mat as much as +2 or so armor and 8 or so hit boxes, you can't heal if your already dead nor can you block charge lanes to something is already ripping you apart. There are several models that are almost auto includes support models to make this model decent. What I really would have preferred is those same several support pieces to take somthign that was already worth the cost of and survivability of 2 dires and making it great. I suppose I was hoping for somthign that would make me really think about, in a verity of lists, is is worth sacrificing the extra furry I can get from 2 other war beasts to include MK or do I need more animi/fury options. I don't want an OP auto-include model ; I want a centerpiece/ expensive model that always makes me think if it should be included with the majority of casters not has to be included.

I would have loved a giant troll with berserk and built in primal and boundless charge no spray etc...many risks balanced by many potential rewards....and mat 6.

I purchased a stormwall and a conquest for the rules...I suppose I am fortunate I like to paint awesome models.

[Po the Barbarian]

Unless the book, or some subsequent book, has something that makes him much better than current playtesting seems to put him at, he's not worth buying if winning games is what you enjoy in WM/H. If painting great looking models an playing lists that aren't optimal because they are fluffy or look good is what you like, then he's a good buy. If you play mercs and can only buy one garg/colossal, the Galleon looks like a game changer and is deffinately the one I would get if I were you.

Re: MAT 5 - this wouldn't have been the only way to fix him by any means. I'd gladdly have gone with even lower damage output but actually really hard to kill. Doing nothing well is what makes the guy seem terrible - he's not real durable, he doesn't hit real hard, and unlike other huge bases he's priced as though the gargantuan rules are a benefit rather than a drawback.

But, hey, maybe as these releases shift the meta to more armor cracking they'll make Troll armor even harder to crack or something and he'll start to look like a thing other than a really boss model.

[Arizona_Troll]

Unless something comes out in Gargantuans that makes him much better, I won't be purchasing him.

[PG_thegreatblah]

MAT/RAT 6
Virtuoso

Fixed.

[PeregrineP]

MAT/RAT 6
Virtuoso

Fixed.

I'd probably second the motion.

[lastspartacus]

Mat6, 2 more hit boxes, and 19 points. Just a bit more and I'd think he was neat :/

[PMAvers]

Honestly, I think it's fine as-is, and that Shedding is extremely under-valued.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Honestly, I think it's fine as-is, and that Shedding is extremely under-valued.

How many times have you played him? I only ask because that's exactly what I thought before I started playing him. I came to the realization that, while shedding is awesome, it does him no good when he's blown off the table so easily.

[PeregrineP]

How many times have you played him? I only ask because that's exactly what I thought before I started playing him. I came to the realization that, while shedding is awesome, it does him no good when he's blown off the table so easily.

And electro-leaps, among other things, make mince meat of whelp shedding to the point of silliness....

[jandrese]

Although there is some value to having a ton of whelps on the table even if the Mountain King dies. At the very least they can roadblock a big chunk of the enemy force and be a nuisance all around.

[Dan from Chicago]

It's got a POW 16 ten inch spray that it can use while in combat. And Trolls have a Warlock with Guided Fire

Got that?

10" of boosted attack rolls under that spray template ... and up to 5 of them will have boosted damage rolls

And there are people here that want RAT 6? Virtuoso? I don't think y'all really understand what the term game balance means

[sourclams]

<<self-edited the inflamatory post>>

So what? Circle isn't taking 3 Purebloods in every list to get the JAWSOME spray assassinations.

You need to understand that the disappointment with MtK has come about after some pretty extensive playtesting from guys with in-depth understanding of how he fits into the Faction.

[PG_Captain Smash]

The MAT 5 really is a huge issue! I was playing a game against a friend playing Skorne, I was engaged by an Archidon and a couple Ferox. Sweep(1 fury), Amuck(2 fury), killed 1 Ferox, missed the other and hit the Archidon. Bought an attack(3 fury) on the Archidon with a boost to hit(4 fury) miss. Buy(5 fury), can't boost, miss. Granted I could have turned and done both initials and had 3 boosted hit attacks but needing 9s one should miss. Meaning we have a 20 pt model that can't reliably kill a 7 point model. While Skorne has a 10 point bronze back that CAN reliably kill the 20 point Mountain King. Doesn't seem right.
That said the Mountain king is such a beautiful model I feel it is worth the money and glad I stayed up all night to get one at L&L, just not sure how often it will get on the game table.

[Dan from Chicago]

Sourclams,

The model's rules have only been available to the general public since early June. You need to understand that I don't believe that's long enough for 'extensive' playtesting.

[joelker41]

No because Mulg is arguably better for much less cost?

[PG_TrollSlayer]

Sourclams,

The model's rules have only been available to the general public since early June. You need to understand that I don't believe that's long enough for 'extensive' playtesting.

Whenever I see this kind of condecending view, I want to refer to that person with a designation that represents their IQ as quite substandard or as that Medieval time period stand-up comic in the funny hat...

But I am above that sort of thing, so I will just say 'playtest him, then come and give your opinion, because we really won't respect you until you do.'

[Dan from Chicago]

Trollslayer,

I'm not going to get into the passive-aggressive insult game. Have fun with it. I trust you read the post I was responding to? Perhaps you noticed I responded with exactly the same condescension I was given?

I don't know you, so I have no idea as to whether I should care about your respect. But I do know that way too many people substitute theorymachine for playtesting, and it can take quite some time for a model's place fin the game to be apparent. I also believe that Privateer Press does a good job with playtesting and game balance, and stuff that appears to stink usually stinks far far less than the forums claim.

[sourclams]

1. The Warlock you are referencing with Guided Fire is generally between Dead Last and Second From Dead Last in the competitiveness rankings.

2. Trollbloods have had access to Pow 16 ranged attacks since... forever. Not on a spray, but Rat 5 Pow 16 is nothing new to the faction. To include the MtK with Gunnbjorn, you are probably trading that new Pow 16 Spray for as many as 4 Pow 16 4" AoEs based on the point costs of the models involved.

3. You criticize the TB community by saying we don't playtest, then you back up and say that we've been theorymachining without playtesting. Would be happy to see a couple dozen batreps of your own results. The meta evolves and less good things become more good, and vice versa, but the meta rarely evolves to the point where terrible things become amazing.

4. Animanatrax.

[IAvian]

I've been proxying him a lot. I started with little hope, and that hope continues to grow.

I've played about 10 games with him, and only lost two. He was instrumental in many of these as a massive gravity well that dominated the table and rope-a-doped heavy hitters that often failed to drop him.

MAT 5 is a huge problem, but I've found that the Winter Troll (yes, the Winter Troll) and clever wall placement with Janissa does a lot for him - opponents often can't get the two heavies/multiple weapon master infantry it usually needs to drop him into combat, and with Freezer up MAT 5 becomes irrelevant. Are there lists that can definitely deal with that? Yup, but Steamroller is a two list format for a reason.

Also, he is really good with Gunnbjorn, and his survivability, immovability, and high pow melee attacks are things that really help Gunnbjorn out. Also, Gunnbjorn makes the Winter Troll a lot better. Three maligned models, one highly functional trinity. Synergy is beautiful thing.

Grim is also really good with him. He doesn't work in Doomshaper (because Mulg is always better, though if you can fit both it does hurt peoples' brains). I haven't tried Borka or eGrissel, but I suspect they're worth a look too. (Mosh pit and Knockdown Shout/Unyielding)

He's usable. He's even good.

He's not an auto-buy, but if you do buy him, he won't sit on the shelf. You just need to learn to use him and build around him.

Personally, I want one because he's a gorgeous sculpt, and I've been happy to discover that there are builds I can field him in and not feel like I'm shooting myself in the foot.

[OMM_Lukav]

I have a good friend who was at L&L and was able to pick a MT up. I talked with him when he got back, and he seemed very optimistic about the model. He is a very very skilled Trollblood player, so I trust him when he talks trollblood tactics. Therefore i was very shocked to hear him despair about the MK the other day. This is a guy who finds effective use for just about any model and rarely dooms/glooms anything. But even he is just not convinced that MK works well.

However he did have a good point. We don't know what is coming out in the next Hordes book for TB, so there may be something there that really makes it a go-to model.

[Hasten]

4. Animanatrax.

Hey come on man, I'm trying to eat here!

Heheh, not that the Animantarax is unplayable, but it is up against some pretty compelling competition for its cost. Not PP's best work, in my humble =).

With regards to the MK (and even the Animantarax I suppose), it's always possible that there are models in the upcoming book that may improve its performance. It seems unlikely that the stats will be revised prior to release, but subsequent (or concurrent) releases may improve things, particularly for models as easily buffed as Gargossals.

-H

[Carnage]

The MAT would be nice, the animus is ok, but what really rankles me is that he's got 8 less boxes than other colossal/gargantuans so far.

It's fine, the Legion one will probably be even squishier. Wolds have typically been the sturdiest of warbeasts almost on par with a jack, and jacks have always had better arm/hitboxes than beasts.

[Dan from Chicago]

1. The Warlock you are referencing with Guided Fire is generally between Dead Last and Second From Dead Last in the competitiveness rankings.

2. Trollbloods have had access to Pow 16 ranged attacks since... forever. Not on a spray, but Rat 5 Pow 16 is nothing new to the faction. To include the MtK with Gunnbjorn, you are probably trading that new Pow 16 Spray for as many as 4 Pow 16 4" AoEs based on the point costs of the models involved.

3. You criticize the TB community by saying we don't playtest, then you back up and say that we've been theorymachining without playtesting. Would be happy to see a couple dozen batreps of your own results. The meta evolves and less good things become more good, and vice versa, but the meta rarely evolves to the point where terrible things become amazing.

4. Animanatrax.

At no point did I reference the 'TB community.' Presumably TB stands in for Trollblood. My first post criticized people who posted in this thread that Virtuoso or RAT 6 was reasonable.

At no point did I say the 'TB Community' didn't playtest. Nor did I 'back up.' I said that I don't believe that a one and a half months is enough time to 'extensively' playtest an option in Warmachine. I said people often substitute theorymachine for playtesting; they do.

BTW, I do think the Animanatrax will be another one of those models that will end up surprising people.

[Hasten]

BTW, I do think the Animanatrax will be another one of those models that will end up surprising people.

We've tried, we really have. Gaminguy, in particular, has had some good playtime with it and has given it an eminently fair shake (this is the guy who swore off the Titan Gladiator for a long while, prior to Domination!). I've tried it several times and kept an open mind (wish I had the opportunity for more games, of course. "Several times" does not an extensive playtest make I realize). As I said, it's not unplayable, but it struggles in comparison with similarly-pointed options within Skorne. So I'm sympathetic to the folks trying to make the Mountain King work for them.

-H