Mountain King: are you really worth buying?

[bouncymischa]

Heheh, not that the Animantarax is unplayable, but it is up against some pretty compelling competition for its cost. Not PP's best work, in my humble =).

One thing that I have to admit I find odd is the fact that people always seem surprised when Privateer releases a sub-par/"bad" model. Before Mountain King there was the Animantarax, before the Animantarax there was Triumph, and so on and so forth.

I'm pretty sure there will be future models that will be bad too. :P

[rwould]

I am really looking forwards to getting my hands on one. Can see some pretty good builds for it and some good ways to maximise its strengths. Any of you that are disapointed with it let me know, I'll happily buy it off you and pay the postage to the UK

[Buddhanutz]

The MAT would be nice, the animus is ok, but what really rankles me is that he's got 8 less boxes than other colossal/gargantuans so far.

You mean the gargantuan that can't be buffed and can only be healed by two warlocks and shifting stones? And the shifting stones can only heal him if he stays still. Yep, completely fair comparison.


Needing a living model for kill shot is lame, though. They have to stop handing cryx bones (u see what I did there). Why would a giant beasty care about the state of living the critter is in when he tears him in half?

[Driver]

He is wayyy better on the table than he is given credit for on the internet.

[microdave]

I'm a competitive trollblood player - I've won leagues with them, defeated national tournament finalists, and I've studied them inside and out.

Mountain King is over cost, but so is every troll heavy - so there is no surprise. You pay a tax for playing trolls, this model is no exception. Properly supporting this model is a 21+ point endeavor however so he makes it really hard to play at 35 points unless you want him to be 1-rounded a bunch.

Troll armies are constructed by overlapping buffs. Taken alone, Mulg is over-cost. When you overlap troll buffs on him he gets nuts and people think he is way powerful for 12 points - he really isn't. MK is the same way. On paper he is very expensive for what he does. After you're done making him pow 22 with all boosted melee attack rolls, or armor 23 and impossible to get more than 1 large base model charging (wall placement), or armor 21 with bump/freezer, he starts to look more like what 20 points should.

A ton of whelps also helps out the rest of your army - just by having him in a list you can field way more beasts than normal and just have his shed whelps remove fury from other beasts.

[MadJack]

So what? Circle isn't taking 3 Purebloods in every list to get the JAWSOME spray assassinations.

Purebloods can spray while engaged?

[Crate123]

A ton of whelps also helps out the rest of your army - just by having him in a list you can field way more beasts than normal and just have his shed whelps remove fury from other beasts.

While Im not argueing the rest of your post, why would your opponent let you spawn whelps to help out your other beasts if he can not kill your mountain king in one turn anyways ?

[microdave]

While Im not argueing the rest of your post, why would your opponent let you spawn whelps to help out your other beasts if he can not kill your mountain king in one turn anyways ?

Even if he dies, there are still plenty of whelps on the board. Also, given the way his spray works, he isn't a sit back and wait model, he's a cram him up the board by running every turn that you aren't charging model. Make your opponent focus on him and then make him impossible to focus on - you can't completely achieve either of these, but the better you do so the more frustrating he will be for the other side of the table.

[necronomitron]

In response to the OP, regardless of his stats that beautiful monstrosity is going on my display shelf. Yes, it's worth buying.

[Azuresun]

However he did have a good point. We don't know what is coming out in the next Hordes book for TB, so there may be something there that really makes it a go-to model.

But it's hard to imagine what would make the Mountain King good, that wouldn't also make a pair of regular Dire Trolls better.

[Sheer_Falacy]

Needing a living model for kill shot is lame, though. They have to stop handing cryx bones (u see what I did there). Why would a giant beasty care about the state of living the critter is in when he tears him in half?

The cryx colossal has kill shot too. In fact, I'd say cryx has the most models in the game that care about enemies being living. Makes the mirror match odd. And yes, it can be really annoying.

[IAvian]

I'm a competitive trollblood player - I've won leagues with them, defeated national tournament finalists, and I've studied them inside and out.

Mountain King is over cost, but so is every troll heavy - so there is no surprise. You pay a tax for playing trolls, this model is no exception. Properly supporting this model is a 21+ point endeavor however so he makes it really hard to play at 35 points unless you want him to be 1-rounded a bunch.

Troll armies are constructed by overlapping buffs. Taken alone, Mulg is over-cost. When you overlap troll buffs on him he gets nuts and people think he is way powerful for 12 points - he really isn't. MK is the same way. On paper he is very expensive for what he does. After you're done making him pow 22 with all boosted melee attack rolls, or armor 23 and impossible to get more than 1 large base model charging (wall placement), or armor 21 with bump/freezer, he starts to look more like what 20 points should.

A ton of whelps also helps out the rest of your army - just by having him in a list you can field way more beasts than normal and just have his shed whelps remove fury from other beasts.

This.

Supporting a Troll army is a high points investment. It's a fact of the faction.

Spending a lot of points to support a model around whom the entire match will revolve is not a bad investment.

[PeregrineP]

This.

Supporting a Troll army is a high points investment. It's a fact of the faction.

Spending a lot of points to support a model around whom the entire match will revolve is not a bad investment.

The trouble I have is that all of these support models you're talking about do other stuff besides support. The MK doesn't offer support or synergy to anything else in the faction and therefore anything else in those 20 points (2 x EBDT, 2 x maulers with whelps, whatever) is going to be doing more with all those layers of buffs + offering the rest of your army more stuff than a MK would.

[lastspartacus]

Itd be really could if its gimmick was just SURVIVING. But it doesnt quite have the spirals for that. If it did, it'd have a unique place. At least amuck lets you get some crazy tramples off.

[Sergeant Bus]

I sold mine. Never would have bought him at L&L if I had known his rules. 9+ hours I waited. Needless to say I was disappointed.

I am not a very good player and didn't want a $125 model collecting dust or depressing me when I put him on the table. There are a lot of things that I would be better rewarded for buying for my army.

I understood that the Colossals were supposed to be ranged monsters and the Gargantuans would be melee terrors. I would be fine with the MK's survive-ability as is if he just wrecked face anything in his way.

OP ~ if its a choice between the Galleon or the MK get the Galleon. Someday the community will discover how the MK is best used and we can buy him then. He will always be available when/if we decide we want a display or field him on the table.

-Sergeant Bus

[Sergeant Bus]

Or something completely off the wall making him self sustaining but immune to most of the trolls buffs

Spd 5 Str 15 Mat 7 Rat 5 Def 9 Arm 21

Big meaty fists
Pow 6

Kill shot- same
Snacking- same
Whelp Shedding- Same

Stubborn Will- The Mountain King can not be affected by animi, spells or effects.

[PG_Viper114]

As I said in the Trollbloods forum, now I'm not even sure I want a Mountain King after seeing the Colossals book. There's no way a Mountain King can go toe to toe with any Colossal and live, especially due to the weak STR and MAT. I can only hope PP can change him before the full release in September...

[PeregrineP]

I can only hope PP can change him before the full release in September...

I'm not holding out hope. Just from observation, I've seen PP nerf models but not buff them between major releases (like moving from MKI to MKII) and the way I've seen them try to prop up factions is not by changing existing models but introducing new ones.(like Stormwall?)

[PeregrineP]

Double post =/

[Sheer_Falacy]

As I said in the Trollbloods forum, now I'm not even sure I want a Mountain King after seeing the Colossals book. There's no way a Mountain King can go toe to toe with any Colossal and live, especially due to the weak STR and MAT. I can only hope PP can change him before the full release in September...

I'd think that as far as MK vs colossal goes, STR and mat are the things he has the least problems with. Mat 5 hits other colossals on 5+ or better, and ps 19 (20 with KSB) is average for colossals. And of course he has fury instead of focus, so that's in his favor. Pretty much all he lacks in a huge base fight is boxes.

[PG_aterdaeus]

I'm a competitive trollblood player - I've won leagues with them, defeated national tournament finalists, and I've studied them inside and out.

Mountain King is over cost, but so is every troll heavy - so there is no surprise. You pay a tax for playing trolls, this model is no exception. Properly supporting this model is a 21+ point endeavor however so he makes it really hard to play at 35 points unless you want him to be 1-rounded a bunch.

Troll armies are constructed by overlapping buffs. Taken alone, Mulg is over-cost. When you overlap troll buffs on him he gets nuts and people think he is way powerful for 12 points - he really isn't. MK is the same way. On paper he is very expensive for what he does. After you're done making him pow 22 with all boosted melee attack rolls, or armor 23 and impossible to get more than 1 large base model charging (wall placement), or armor 21 with bump/freezer, he starts to look more like what 20 points should.

A ton of whelps also helps out the rest of your army - just by having him in a list you can field way more beasts than normal and just have his shed whelps remove fury from other beasts.

This is the voice of reason I've been looking for. It's like Troll players forgot about all of the crazy buffs they have to put on this thing.

I bet you when Mr. Soles playtested the Mountain King, he used buffs. But if you folk really don't want him PM me and I'll tell you how you can mail them to me

[freelancerebel]

I think this things is pretty good for what it is. Trolls have so many buffs that I don't see why he can't be made ridiculous really easily. Grim's feat gives -3 defense to everything plus fury 5(IRC), things are going to die. The faction also has tons of auto knock down, borka, egrissel, chronicler, impaler, etc etc. I don't see why mat 5 is a huge issue compared to mat 6. Its a beat stick with a bit of durability.

[Po the Barbarian]

The argument that it can be buffed really does need to consider that so could the other 20 points of models you aren't taking. Making an OK model good vs making good models great is a bad plan and a weak argument. You really do need to say why those buffs would not be beter on mulg + 8 points of another beast before you can say you can buff the mountain king to be a sound choice. Microdave is putting together an argument like this that I can really get behind, but just saying "you can buff him" isn't a statement that carriess any weight or shows much thought.

I'm still planning to play him, but I play Searforge too - I'm not exactly only willing to play models that up my chances of winning games.

[PeregrineP]

Let's preface this post and make it clear that the trollblood community thinks TMK is an awesome model. They're dying to find every angle to make him competitive. Many have playtested him constantly since he's become available. It's not like you can't win games with TMK in your list. It's not like you can't kill anything with it. What people are saying, is that compared to the other colossals/gargantuans released, he is completely lackluster and over-costed.

I think this things is pretty good for what it is. Trolls have so many buffs that I don't see why he can't be made ridiculous really easily.

Ok, show me a single other faction that is required to bring 17+ points of support(KSB+Janissa+EBDT) to put their colossal/gargantuan on par with where every other faction can get their's for in ~ 3 points of support or less. Also, after a trollblood player has spent 17+ points on support, which can largely be countered by any faction that has some debuff, and the MK gets 1-rounded due to low max health boxes and lack of points left to field a screening unit ... guess what you have left? 17+ points in support...

Grim's feat gives -3 defense to everything plus fury 5(IRC), things are going to die. The faction also has tons of auto knock down, borka, egrissel, chronicler, impaler, etc etc. I don't see why mat 5 is a huge issue compared to mat 6. Its a beat stick with a bit of durability.

So on top of the 17+ points in support a trollblood player would have to bring to buff survivability, trollblood players are reliant on 4 models(2 of which are 'lock dependent, and 1 relies on a crit roll...) to also compensate for low MAT/RAT? You're really going to make the case that because one warlock on their feat turn can make it so on that single turn, 20 points(or 37 points) is less likely to wiff on their attacks and that makes it ok? *mind is boggled*

[PG_thegreatblah]

We are doing everything in our power to make the MK at least as effective as the Colossals/Gargs we have already seen. Currently the jury is still out on whether or not he is, but the prognosis isn't looking favorable at this point.

[rwould]

The Mountain King comes more into it in character restricted environments. Whilst Mulg is better value Mulg can only go in one list

[Poppabear40]

I love the sculpt, I am very disappointed in the stats/features of this model. Are you listening to us about him PP? You guys at PP are so awesome in game balance, design, customer service, and player support. Please fix our Mountain King. Think of it as a personal favor to me. Thanks.

[The Buoyancy of Water]

Troll armies are constructed by overlapping buffs. Taken alone, Mulg is over-cost. When you overlap troll buffs on him he gets nuts and people think he is way powerful for 12 points - he really isn't. MK is the same way. On paper he is very expensive for what he does. After you're done making him pow 22 with all boosted melee attack rolls, or armor 23 and impossible to get more than 1 large base model charging (wall placement), or armor 21 with bump/freezer, he starts to look more like what 20 points should.

A ton of whelps also helps out the rest of your army - just by having him in a list you can field way more beasts than normal and just have his shed whelps remove fury from other beasts.

From this argument I'm going to assume you're one of the sane people who know winter guard infantry with their UA, Joe and an Iron Flesh caster to support them are perfectly well balanced?

[FranzGrenstein]

I love the sculpt, I am very disappointed in the stats/features of this model. Are you listening to us about him PP? You guys at PP are so awesome in game balance, design, customer service, and player support. Please fix our Mountain King. Think of it as a personal favor to me. Thanks.

Yeah, that is going to happen when lions moo.

Look at "Triumph"(BAHAHAHA) that was fixed, gorgon, the skorne battle engine.

I really want to see it compared to the other gargants, it could be that the WW is hordes Stormwall (the pick of the litter.) If the rest of the gargants are more in line with the WW than the MK.

[Azuresun]

This is the voice of reason I've been looking for. It's like Troll players forgot about all of the crazy buffs they have to put on this thing.

I think this things is pretty good for what it is. Trolls have so many buffs that I don't see why he can't be made ridiculous really easily. Grim's feat gives -3 defense to everything plus fury 5(IRC), things are going to die. The faction also has tons of auto knock down, borka, egrissel, chronicler, impaler, etc etc. I don't see why mat 5 is a huge issue compared to mat 6. Its a beat stick with a bit of durability.

But (again), those buffs are usually going to be far better when applied to 20pts of other beasts. To be viable, the MK either needs to do something they do better, or add a new option or style to the faction, like the Colossals / Gargs people seem happier with.

[West996]

Don't forget the inherent special rules that come with being a Gargantuan. Can't be KD'ed, Slammed, or placed is at least a little bit of advantage. Also buffing one big model is a little bit more efficient that buffing several.

I'm not trying to say that the Mtk is not underwhelming but those things do need to be kept in mind when comparing it to 20 points of beasts.

[rpavers]

But (again), those buffs are usually going to be far better when applied to 20pts of other beasts. To be viable, the MK either needs to do something they do better, or add a new option or style to the faction, like the Colossals / Gargs people seem happier with.

As a circle player, I'd prefer you to bring heavies I can harpoon over something I can't.

[MadJack]

As a circle player, I'd prefer you to bring heavies I can harpoon over something I can't.

This is a good point. I think that a lot of people are ignoring the fact that purely by virtue of being a Gargantuan the Mountain King has certain advantages (can't be moved, can't be knocked down, pathfinder, can't be controlled by your opponent, extra power attacks) and disadvantages (can't benefit from cover/concealment, can't be placed) over beasts. Without taking all of those into account, you can't come up with a true picture of whether it's better to buff a Mountain King or an equivalent number of heavy war beasts. I'd imagine that a troll brick anchored by a huge base that can't be moved or knocked down would be a pretty good counter to a lot of assassination lists.

[sourclams]

The Mountain King comes more into it in character restricted environments. Whilst Mulg is better value Mulg can only go in one list

The 'buff him until he's good' crowd largely has MtK and Janissa attached at the hip, so character restrictions aren't an argument for or against MtK.

[sourclams]

This is a good point. I think that a lot of people are ignoring the fact that purely by virtue of being a Gargantuan the Mountain King has certain advantages (can't be moved, can't be knocked down, pathfinder, can't be controlled by your opponent, extra power attacks) and disadvantages (can't benefit from cover/concealment, can't be placed) over beasts. Without taking all of those into account, you can't come up with a true picture of whether it's better to buff a Mountain King or an equivalent number of heavy war beasts. I'd imagine that a troll brick anchored by a huge base that can't be moved or knocked down would be a pretty good counter to a lot of assassination lists.

1. Playtest shows the troll brick doesn't work that well with the MtK. Furthermore, if you bring the MtK, you don't have a troll brick; you have MtK and 1 other heavy with maybe 1 other light (for a ~35 pt battlegroup).

2. Behind Janissa's wall, none of our other heavies can be harpooned, either. Furthermore, the Garg/Colossal characteristics are common to all Garg Colossals; the MtK has a fundamentally weaker statline for generally a higher point cost, meaning that he's paying for something "in addition" to the Garg/Colossal characteristics.

[rpavers]

2. Behind Janissa's wall, none of our other heavies can be harpooned, either. Furthermore, the Garg/Colossal characteristics are common to all Garg Colossals; the MtK has a fundamentally weaker statline for generally a higher point cost, meaning that he's paying for something "in addition" to the Garg/Colossal characteristics.

And once again I'm 100% fine with this. That's one wall template of things I can't harpoon (not nearly the size of MK). Now for the rest of your army.

[MadJack]

1. Playtest shows the troll brick doesn't work that well with the MtK. Furthermore, if you bring the MtK, you don't have a troll brick; you have MtK and 1 other heavy with maybe 1 other light (for a ~35 pt battlegroup).

Fair enough. It was totally theorymachine on my part (which was why I said "I'd imagine"). Playtest results supercede theory.

2. Behind Janissa's wall, none of our other heavies can be harpooned, either. Furthermore, the Garg/Colossal characteristics are common to all Garg Colossals; the MtK has a fundamentally weaker statline for generally a higher point cost, meaning that he's paying for something "in addition" to the Garg/Colossal characteristics.

Janissa doesn't give all of the advantages of gargantuans, though (and she's just one caster - albeit one with a lot of buffs, so it makes sense to discuss her specifically), and I'm not saying anything about comparing the Mountain King to other gargantuans (whether it got the short end of the stick there is something that I can't really say - it's entirely possible) - I'm only pointing out that saying that applying the same buffs to warbeasts is better without taking into account the advantages that gargantuans inherently have isn't looking at the whole picture.

[Rightfin]

.

I don't understand the negative-MountainKing side in all of these threads.

What exactly is the point of all making all this fus convincing everyone the Mountain King is sub-par? Why all this shouting down of anyone who tries to spin the model in a more positive light?

Maybe the Mountain King was supposed to be crap (Rule wise - although this is only the opinion/ playtesting based on "competitive", not playability and enjoyment).
There is absolutely ZERO evidence, or any precedent, that Privateer Staff will change this model based on forum complaints. What exactly are any of these complaints going to accomplish other than making the Mountain King a self-fufilling failure?

In answer to the above original poster. Is it all that hard to wait a bit longer than trying to make a decision on picking up the model? It's not entirely sensible to "plan" a purchase descision on something that hasn't even been released yet, without context from the book that it is to appear. At this point - the model looks terrific, and possibly might be fun to play if he suits your play style.

[West996]

1. Playtest shows the troll brick doesn't work that well with the MtK. Furthermore, if you bring the MtK, you don't have a troll brick; you have MtK and 1 other heavy with maybe 1 other light (for a ~35 pt battlegroup).

2. Behind Janissa's wall, none of our other heavies can be harpooned, either. Furthermore, the Garg/Colossal characteristics are common to all Garg Colossals; the MtK has a fundamentally weaker statline for generally a higher point cost, meaning that he's paying for something "in addition" to the Garg/Colossal characteristics.

If your argument is that the Mtk is worse stat wise then all the other Gargas, that is a whole other story and much less useful of a discussion. It is very hard to accurately compare models from one faction to the next.

I don't think you have play tested both circle and trolls enough to know definitively that the Circle Gargantuan does more for the faction as a whole then the Mtk does for Trolls.

Do we even know the full stats of the other Gargantuans? Or are you just trying to prove that Circle got the better deal? Even if that is true that doesn't mean that the Mtk isn't worth taking, and I'm not sure that it is true.

[MadJack]

At this point - the model looks terrific,

Honestly, I didn't really think so until I saw one in person. Now I think it's a fantastic model, and I'm seriously considering getting it when it comes out, even though I almost never use my Trolls, and I don't think he synergizes well with my favorite warlock (Gunnbjorn).