Mountain King: are you really worth buying?

[MadJack]

If your using Sweep you are clearing infantry. And you skipped over the part about being able to take two Axers and two Heroes for two points less than the MtK and thus covering a larger area from more angles. It would be more useful if he had Bulldoze and didn't stop when he hit the first base in front of him.

A single 10" spray that can be used when engaged, if you kill a living model, is not worth 20 points.

If you're using Sweep, you're not necessarily clearing infantry. You might be facing a whole bunch of targets, possibly including infantry, possibly including some lights, possibly including some heavies, and hey look the P+S is high enough to hurt whatever you might be facing. Maybe clearing infantry is the only thing you can think of that it'll be useful for, but the fact is that it's useful for a lot more than that. I know - I've used it on my Stormwall against more than just infantry.

How is it even possible that you keep assuming that I'm saying that those abilities are worth the point cost? I keep on explicitly saying that I'm not making any judgement at all on whether it's worth the points! I've said it at least 4 or 5 times now! I don't know how I can make that any more clear! What I'm saying is that it brings options that the Trollbloods don't already have (which it does - no way around that), and you keep on trying to argue with me about something I'm not arguing.

[PG_TrollSlayer]

And I am saying he doesn't bring anything the the Trolls can't already do and for cheaper.

[mcdermott]

Another point is that thresher is LOS limited, where sweep is not.

Key for those defensive line/shield wall situations...which is really when those two abilities shine anyway.

[wargrim]

No kidding. That half front arc still covers more area than the full front arc of an axer. Do the math - I did before I posted. Besides, my point wasn't about infantry clearing - it was about the power attack itself on the Mountain King. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Axer's P+S 14 is a wee bit lower than the Mountain King's P+S. That means that the power attack on the Mountain King is good for more than just infantry clearing, while the thresher on the Axer is pretty much good just for infantry.

TMK's sweep covers 10.55 square-inch, axers thresher covers 11.24 square-inch. Axers thresher is POW14, TMK'S sweep is POW15. That's really only a wee bit.

And 15 whelps through whelp shedding? Is the opponent trying to tickle the TMK to death?

[portedGoblin]

TMK's sweep covers 10.55 square-inch, axers thresher covers 11.24 square-inch. Axers thresher is POW14, TMK'S sweep is POW15. That's really only a wee bit.

And 15 whelps through whelp shedding? Is the opponent trying to tickle the TMK to death?

The Axer is also +1 MAT.

[computertrucker]

Silence of death is a beautiful thing. Thank you Thyra for stopping that annoying mountain king from regenerating.

[marshvader]

the stats just need to be better

[MadJack]

TMK's sweep covers 10.55 square-inch, axers thresher covers 11.24 square-inch. Axers thresher is POW14, TMK'S sweep is POW15. That's really only a wee bit.

Hmm, I just double checked my math on the area, and you're right, I screwed it up somewhere. Since I didn't write it down (this is why you learn in school to always show your work) I'm not sure where I went wrong the first time. I also thought the Mountain King was STR 17, not 15, so while it is higher than the P+S of the Axer, you're right, it's not by much.

And 15 whelps through whelp shedding? Is the opponent trying to tickle the TMK to death?

You're totally missing the point with this. The Mountain King can put out 2 whelps every time it's damaged. Every other warbeast can only do 1.

[MadJack]

And I am saying he doesn't bring anything the the Trolls can't already do and for cheaper.

And I've already shown you that you're flat-out wrong. He absolutely does bring things that the Trolls can't already do. I've given you examples that you haven't been able to contradict. Whether he's worth the points is an argument for other people, and one that I won't get into since I haven't used him or played against him.

[nosrek]

7/15/12 (tomorrow) 7pm pacific time on vassal. Dire bracket challenge. Gunnbjorn vs. Borka. Come see gunny and his mountain king take on Borka's family reunion tier.

Watch an actual game with the mountain king, perhaps it will help those who have only been able to play him in the dojo. I personally am playing Borka and do not foresee a plausible way to take a mountain king off the table in one turn (using my list).

[eliassmith27]

What second heavy? My unit of IF Pikemen\Champions\Cetartii under Battle Lust\Fury\Blood Lust\Total Annihilation just boxed him. And if he is still hanging on, now would be the time to bring those heavy guns to bear or have the cavalry ride in behind the infantry.

I would really love to play against you.

Most people don't put their heavy hitting beast unprotected in front of their army to be charged by an entire unit of weapon master infantry. If you can't use champions or fenblades to protect against this tactic, then you're right, don't use him.

And I am saying he doesn't bring anything the the Trolls can't already do and for cheaper.

I would like to see what you can bring for 19 pc or less that brings a 10" spray with a POW higher then 14+ (let alone POW 16. I'd except 2 POW 12 spray 10s), Swings 7 times with P+S 19+ and reach, and has a similar thresher capability. Please show me this list. I might play it sometime.

[Defenstrator]

But.... How many troll players used the word whine at a Cygnar player? If you guys could raise your hand please? What? No hands? Somehow I don't believe you...

It appears that it's only whining when it's someone else complaining about their crap stuff.

[Wishing]

It appears that it's only whining when it's someone else complaining about their crap stuff.

Yep. Complaints about what we don't care about are whining, whereas complaints about what we do care about are legitimate and valid concerns. Human nature.

[Cannibalbob]

So, in the case of the MK, PP should listen to what the forums ask/beg/demand and make him better, but otherwise, they shouldn't? How will PP know when to do what the forums say and when not to?

The point being that I don't think PP will ever start errataing to make things better based on forum feedback. If they constantly revisited their model line and tweaked stuff to satisfy the public, the game would become a colossal mess in my view. Balance is in the eye of the beholder, and perceived imbalance of some models is just something we have to live with.

Never said they should buff him, although I personally think they should go back and revise a number of models. But in the end they should do what they think is best and not rely on the forums to tell them what to do - since forums are a very small slice of the playerbase.

They can do what they want, and I will let them know my opinion with my wallet - which will stay firmly closed for the Mountain King.

[Crate123]

They can do what they want, and I will let them know my opinion with my wallet - which will stay firmly closed for the Mountain King.

Unfortunately this is where I will end up as well (unless I suddenly get enough extra money), shame for such a beautiful model.

[Navarp]

It just isn't as good/critical to the faction as Mulg. Unfortunately, very few things survive the "Are you as good as Mulg" gameshow.

The premises in the logic in these sentences is terrible. If Trolls were tearing up the tournament scene then it might be okay, but as it it saying:

"Well, you see trolls have peaked. They already have their best models. Don't expect your faction to improve, or gain anything new with subsequent releases, but hey Mulg is awesome."

[PG_TrollSlayer]

Closed wallet here.

@ eliassmith27: Obviously you haven't heard of the people who want to use him as a frontline beatstick. Also, he is 20 points, not 19. Any typical EDoomy list will do just fine.

[sourclams]

I own the entire troll faction except for the Skinner and the MtK. I don't see that changing; PP you lost a sale. Quite probably 2.

Please show me this list. I might play it sometime.

Funny, I keep asking people to show me a 50 pt Steamroller list that fits Mountain King, all his supporting buffs, and screening infantry, and that would both appear competitive and wouldn't be made better by substituting MtK for other models.

The combined efforts of the TB forums has generated 1 Gunnbjorn list, and it's debatable, with maybe a Borka list 'pending'. Please feel free to develop another.

[Mod_GoLu]

Let's not have the thread go there. Keep it civil, everyone.

[Navarp]

OK, off the top of my head: what else do Trolls have that can charge and kill something, and then do a high POW 10" spray out of the combat to hit juicy targets that are otherwise almost impossible to get to? What else can do the extra power attacks? What else can't ever be moved or placed or made stationary or knocked down or controlled by the opposing player under any circumstances (and yes, I'm talking about the combination of all of those, not a model that has just one or two)? What else spawns such a huge number of whelps when attacked? Are those (and others that I may have missed in this quick off-the-cuff list) worth the points? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not making any judgements on that because I've never used or gone up against a Mountain King yet. The fact is that they're things that you otherwise don't get in-faction.

This is a strawman at best. just bringing something new to the faction isn't actually a thing. It must be also worth the points.

[MadJack]

This is a strawman at best. just bringing something new to the faction isn't actually a thing. It must be also worth the points.

Not at all. It was a reply to someone asking what new things the Mountain King brings to the faction. I have explicitly said over and over that I haven't made any judgement on whether the Mountain King is worth the points. In fact, I said it in the very text you quoted. I'm not getting involved in that debate because I haven't played with or against the Mountain King.

[Navarp]

Not at all. It was a reply to someone asking what new things the Mountain King brings to the faction. I have explicitly said over and over that I haven't made any judgement on whether the Mountain King is worth the points. In fact, I said it in the very text you quoted. I'm not getting involved in that debate because I haven't played with or against the Mountain King.

But to say this then you must be ignoring the fact that to bring something new to the faction we have to actually be able to afford to field it.

[Navarp]

Not at all. It was a reply to someone asking what new things the Mountain King brings to the faction. I have explicitly said over and over that I haven't made any judgement on whether the Mountain King is worth the points. In fact, I said it in the very text you quoted. I'm not getting involved in that debate because I haven't played with or against the Mountain King.

double post

[MadJack]

But to say this then you must be ignoring the fact that to bring something new to the faction we have to actually be able to afford to field it.

Umm, no, that statement really has no meaning. Can you fit a 19-20pt model (I can't remember how much it costs) in a 35pt or 50pt list? Absolutely. Therefore by definition you can afford to field it. For your statement to make any sense you'd have to be talking about games below the 15pt level. Whether it makes sense to field it is an entirely separate question. The simple fact is that some people have been saying that everything that the Mountain King does can be done cheaper and better with other options that the Trollbloods have. I've given some examples that prove that to be false. Whether these new things that it brings are significant enough for it to be worth fielding is something that people will have to decide on their own.

[sourclams]

Problem is the 'new' stuff you're picking out aren't really that new. We generally have them in some other package of pre-existing models.

Have we had a Pow 16 spray before? No, but we have Pow 16 ranged attacks on models half the price, with twice as many of them.

Do we have a Huge base with no push/slam/knockdown? Yeah, battle engine.

Do we have high-volume P&S 19? Mulg

Do we have 48 boxes in one location? I think having 56+ in two locations is better in 90% of circumstances.

How many of our warbeasts can crank out like 5 whelps a turn? All of them, for 2 points.

[Asdrubael]

The premises in the logic in these sentences is terrible. If Trolls were tearing up the tournament scene then it might be okay, but as it it saying:

"Well, you see trolls have peaked. They already have their best models. Don't expect your faction to improve, or gain anything new with subsequent releases, but hey Mulg is awesome."

How did I say your FACTION wouldn't improve? I said that the primary complaint that I am seeing is that this model is not as fulfilling the same role as Mulg - destroying opposing heavy/single models. Mulg is amazing at fulfilling this purpose, rivaled only by Ghetorix and a Bronzeback in my estimation. The fact of the matter is that there is a statistical ceiling that models must abide by. Mulg is very close to this ceiling, if not already there. Expecting something above the ceiling was wishful thinking.

This brings me to my next point, which several others are arguing right now - how could this model have improved the faction. The easy answer is that it would have had to fundamentally bring something different or new. And that's where your assertion that I'm saying your faction has peaked is wildly innaccurate and putting words in my mouth. In terms of a single-model annihilating beat stick, yes, you've likely peaked. Just like in my faction, Circle, I don't anticipate any future releases will rival druids in terms of a unit that provides utility. However, can your faction improve elsewhere? Hell yes. I actually think the Mountain King was supposed to do that. It appears to have been meant to be incredibly versatile in ways your other beasts don't seem to be. The issue, however, is that it doesn't seem to actually be any good at these new things as a result of taxes built into the Trollblood faction. MAT 5, chintzy defense mechanism that appears, despite the mad ramblings of a few, to suck, and a spray that's sweet, but doesn't trigger very efficiently and is at low enough RAT that it's hard to maximize all combine to make this thing a meh model.

[Whiteout]

It's funny, troll players are upset about the Mountain King, whereas on the Minions forum everyone is fretting about the Mountain King. Stormwall are easy to crack with some Warhogs, but Mountain Kings have been proving difficult.

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

It's funny, troll players are upset about the Mountain King, whereas on the Minions forum everyone is fretting about the Mountain King. Stormwall are easy to crack with some Warhogs, but Mountain Kings have been proving difficult.

Which makes absolutely no sense.

[mcdermott]

Sure it does...warhogs don't have reach, which means spawned whelps from the first warhog can cause serious complications with getting that second warhog in to finish him off.

The thing that gets me...that always causes me confusion is the automatic assumption that you'll even be able to get that second heavy in there through obstacles like terrain, other models, line of sight, etc. It basically operates under the assumption that the large base model is just out there balls in the breeze. It takes a lot to stop the first heavy from getting in on it, but a second heavy is not that difficult to stymie at all.

[Crate123]

Sure it does...warhogs don't have reach, which means spawned whelps from the first warhog can cause serious complications with getting that second warhog in to finish him off.

The thing that gets me...that always causes me confusion is the automatic assumption that you'll even be able to get that second heavy in there through obstacles like terrain, other models, line of sight, etc. It basically operates under the assumption that the large base model is just out there balls in the breeze. It takes a lot to stop the first heavy from getting in on it, but a second heavy is not that difficult to stymie at all.

Unless it has reach, then it gets really hard to stop and quite a few heavies (or weapon master models) have reach.

[mcdermott]

Proper stone wall placement can put a decent stop to even reach infantry. Just saying, there are very few instances where I've had people able to reach out and touch something without my errors allowing it, especially where melee is concerned.

[MadJack]

Problem is the 'new' stuff you're picking out aren't really that new. We generally have them in some other package of pre-existing models.

Have we had a Pow 16 spray before? No, but we have Pow 16 ranged attacks on models half the price, with twice as many of them.

A POW 16 spray that can spray out of combat is vastly different in terms of how you can use it than a regular POW 16 ranged attack. If you truly can't see the difference, then I suggest you play more games with sprays and regular ranged attacks. Frankly, I can't think of anything in the game that has such a powerful (and boostable) spray.

Do we have a Huge base with no push/slam/knockdown? Yeah, battle engine.

Oh, so your battle engine also doesn't allow your opponent to place it? It also doesn't allow your opponent to ever take control of it under any circumstances? Funny, I didn't see those in its rules. Again, if you don't see the difference between being immune to most ways of moving a model and being immune to all ways of moving a model, then I suggest you play more games - especially against tricky assassination lists.

Do we have high-volume P&S 19? Mulg

Yes, I know, that's why I never said that was something new that the Mountain King brings. Frankly, I'm surprised the Mountain King doesn't have a point or 2 more STR.

Do we have 48 boxes in one location? I think having 56+ in two locations is better in 90% of circumstances.

Again, that's something I never said was something new that the Mountain King brings (although it technically is, and there are cases when it can be better to force your opponent to concentrate his stuff on one model instead of two).

How many of our warbeasts can crank out like 5 whelps a turn? All of them, for 2 points.

The Mountain King can crank out double the whelps of any other warbeast. Odds are it's going to take more than 5 attacks to kill a Mountain King, and with each one that damages it, the Mountain King can pop out 2 whelps. Every other warbeast will take fewer attacks to kill, and can only pop out 1 whelp each time it takes damage.

And how about the other new things I listed? What do you have that can slam a model it's already in combat with at the start of the turn? What do you have that can effectively thresher without having to worry about LOS on those models in the back of shield walls/defensive lines?

Really, if you start talking about whether those new things are worth the points instead of pretending that you already had them (when anyone can independently verify that Trollbloods didn't have access to any of them before), then people might take your complaints more seriously.

[Navarp]

Umm, no, that statement really has no meaning. Can you fit a 19-20pt model (I can't remember how much it costs) in a 35pt or 50pt list? Absolutely. Therefore by definition you can afford to field it. For your statement to make any sense you'd have to be talking about games below the 15pt level. Whether it makes sense to field it is an entirely separate question. The simple fact is that some people have been saying that everything that the Mountain King does can be done cheaper and better with other options that the Trollbloods have. I've given some examples that prove that to be false. Whether these new things that it brings are significant enough for it to be worth fielding is something that people will have to decide on their own.

This is absurd. This is a game where models cost points. If the model costs too many points it doesn't matter what it brings to a faction. If no one will ever field it because it is points inefficient then, in point of fact, it doesn't actually add anything to that faction. A model has to be fielded to add something to a faction.

[Navarp]

How did I say your FACTION wouldn't improve? I said that the primary complaint that I am seeing is that this model is not as fulfilling the same role as Mulg - destroying opposing heavy/single models. Mulg is amazing at fulfilling this purpose, rivaled only by Ghetorix and a Bronzeback in my estimation. The fact of the matter is that there is a statistical ceiling that models must abide by. Mulg is very close to this ceiling, if not already there. Expecting something above the ceiling was wishful thinking.

This brings me to my next point, which several others are arguing right now - how could this model have improved the faction. The easy answer is that it would have had to fundamentally bring something different or new. And that's where your assertion that I'm saying your faction has peaked is wildly innaccurate and putting words in my mouth. In terms of a single-model annihilating beat stick, yes, you've likely peaked. Just like in my faction, Circle, I don't anticipate any future releases will rival druids in terms of a unit that provides utility. However, can your faction improve elsewhere? Hell yes. I actually think the Mountain King was supposed to do that. It appears to have been meant to be incredibly versatile in ways your other beasts don't seem to be. The issue, however, is that it doesn't seem to actually be any good at these new things as a result of taxes built into the Trollblood faction. MAT 5, chintzy defense mechanism that appears, despite the mad ramblings of a few, to suck, and a spray that's sweet, but doesn't trigger very efficiently and is at low enough RAT that it's hard to maximize all combine to make this thing a meh model.

I think we are on the same page. I didn't mean to misrepresent what you said. I am a bit bitter about this because of some similar comments and comments like "Well fury is better than focus so your gargantuans SHOULD be worse." etc. I shouldn't have taken it out on your post though.

[Crate123]

Oh, so your battle engine also doesn't allow your opponent to place it? It also doesn't allow your opponent to ever take control of it under any circumstances? Funny, I didn't see those in its rules. Again, if you don't see the difference between being immune to most ways of moving a model and being immune to all ways of moving a model, then I suggest you play more games - especially against tricky assassination lists.

Yes you can place it, but its still a huge base and they are easier to stop from being placed (yes I know you are strictly argueing whether they can or not, Im just saying its not that easy). While you can theoretically take control over it, most control effects target warbeasts/warjacks/warrior models and the warwagon is neither of those things. Even pHexeris' feat cant do anything since a mount cant make attacks without a special rule allowing them to.

I agree that he brings some new stuff but its way too expensive.

[mcdermott]

This is absurd. This is a game where models cost points. If the model costs too many points it doesn't matter what it brings to a faction. If no one will ever field it because it is points inefficient then, in point of fact, it doesn't actually add anything to that faction. A model has to be fielded to add something to a faction.

What happens when the forum playerbase writes a model off pre release of it without any legitimate amount of playtesting then?

Cause I mean...we got that with zerkova, and harkevich over on the khador boards, and now people are starting to have to eat crow.

I feel like I should repost this from the khador boards.

How to be negative without coming across as unreasonable:

1. Refrain from too much comment on models yet unreleased. Even if you've been proxying you haven't played enough games to have an informed opinion. Look at how zerkova and harkevich are treated now as opposed to when they were newer. Even "This doesn't wow me but i'll give it a shot" is better received than absolute statements of fact.

2. Acknowledge the unique benefits of otherwise underwhelming models. Example: AK's can be a great line unit in non-satyxis cryx heavy environments. Creeping barrage is solid in places where things like nyss, kayazy, and other lightly armored infantry are common. Even "This models utility seems a little niche for regular tournament play" sounds better than "this is bad"

3. Don't write off anything you haven't at least proxied a dozen times or so. When people try something once or twice and go all "bluhhhhh" about it, it just provokes the rest of the forum, you haven't "tried" it if you've only played a handful of games with it, units and models in every game take time to learn to use correctly.

[sourclams]

By my math, Rorsch has a high likelihood of doing at least 1 damage to MtK with his RoF2 pig iron and boosting damage. Brine, under Carver's feat turn, does 41 damage to MtK by himself, leaving the remaining ~45 points in the list to do put the last 6 boxes on.

While it's true that masterful wall placement can control much of an initial engagement, the reality is that with a 4.5" base, MtK is going to be the only model protected by it (either that or there are big gaps to base up to MtK with). That means that your battlegroup is going very, very slowly with Janissa leapfrogging the wall 5" every turn and models jockeying around to screen her from harm, or Something Important is going to be left vulnerable to attack, especially if swarmed and tarpitted by mass cheap infantry.

[sourclams]

What happens when the forum playerbase writes a model off pre release of it without any legitimate amount of playtesting then?

What happens when the negative reviews are coming from the players who have done the playtesting? And when the counterpoints are largely shown invalid by the initial playtesting?

How much playtesting is 'legitimate'? Twenty games by a hundred people? Forty games by a thousand people? How much playtesting have YOU done?

[Navarp]

What happens when the forum playerbase writes a model off pre release of it without any legitimate amount of playtesting then?

Cause I mean...we got that with zerkova, and harkevich over on the khador boards, and now people are starting to have to eat crow.

I feel like I should repost this from the khador boards.

Then they eat crow. I believe that you have answered your own question.

How much playtesting is considered "legitimate" anyway?

[mcdermott]

I don't feel comfortable with everything a list can do unless I've playtested it around a dozen times or so. I suspect others feel more confident with less.

But beyond that, say you playtested it, nothing says that the list you put together is the proper list for that particular model. The reason I point out that it's no good to write stuff off so early is because well, what do we have here, like half a dozen players who playtested it maybe half a dozen times each? It took months after model release for the khador playerbase to suss out what the strengths of harky and zerkova were, and the reason they were able to do that was because LOTS of people had time to play lots of games with them.

It just strikes me as a bit ...overconfident in your abilities to claim that before a model is even released you know that it's useless. I highly doubt any of you have done anything resembling statistically significant playtesting with it. But by all means, how many games with how many casters/lists?