pHaley's Blitz and Stormblades w/ Storm Gunners

[Sanguinary Dan]

Perhaps I'm late to the party here, but I had a bit of an epiphany. On pHaley's Feat turn a unit of Storm Blades with full Storm Gunners and UA need hit only once to score 22 POW14 hits. And with Deadeye they might actually manage to hit something important. Twenty-two! By golly I may have just found the definitive answer to my friends Typhon & Abby list. "Try and heal that pile of charcoal biaaatcch!"

Makes me wonder how many other magic combos there are that I've missed. Gawd, I love this game.

[etherya]

Yes stormblades become usefull with her. Try to mix in Rhupert or Archduke Runewood for extra stuff, and a Stormclad.

[GunMageinTraining]

Deadeye and Temporal Barrier combine to make them fairly accurate, not that you need excessive accuracy with Stormgunners. Note, won't work with Assault order, as you only get one ranged attack, and 2 melee under Blitz.

Pow 14s though, can fall flat hitting harder stuff. Especially a Regenerating Typhon who may well survive the full barrage if you don't get lucky enough. Look to combine with Aiyana for Harm to boost it up to Pow 16s, or Ragman/Gorman for armor debuffs.

[Varius]

Deadeye and Temporal Barrier combine to make them fairly accurate, not that you need excessive accuracy with Stormgunners. Note, won't work with Assault order, as you only get one ranged attack, and 2 melee under Blitz.

Pow 14s though, can fall flat hitting harder stuff. Especially a Regenerating Typhon who may well survive the full barrage if you don't get lucky enough. Look to combine with Aiyana for Harm to boost it up to Pow 16s, or Ragman/Gorman for armor debuffs.

What if the unit assaults but doesnt make it's melee attack? Lets say the thing you were assaulting dies?

[Sanguinary Dan]

Both post make very good points. Though honestly I've shot Typhon to pieces with just the normal number of shots. Of course I've also managed to do nothing more than piss him off. And while POW14 isn't that great against ARM19-20, most beasts are lower and with that many shots even average dice (for 2, 3 or 4 points) add up to a ton of damage. And if not you'll have one hell of a story to tell.

Just the idea of pumping out that many shots makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. I could fire one Storm Thrower shot at one target and the next at another and then score as many hits on a single target as required to finish it off.

[PG_Agamemnon]

It is important to remember that- Assault is a melee order that lets you make a ranged attack at the end of your movement.

So if a model is under the effects of Blitz then assaults a target and kills it with a ranged attack and is not in melee with any other models at the end of movement then there are no valid targets for a melee attack. That model's has nothing else to do.... unless there is a special rule that says otherwise.... of which Stormblades do not have.

Now if you walk the stormblades up and then shoot yes they will all get two ranged shots.

[phreaker187]

What if the unit assaults but doesnt make it's melee attack? Lets say the thing you were assaulting dies?

I believe that would be a failed charge and your activation would immediatly end so no second shot.

[sleet01]

@phreaker: it wouldn't be a failed charge, because the Stormblades could have made it to melee range before taking their Assault shots. But if Stormblades assault, they get exactly one Ranged attack (from Assault) and as many melee attacks as they can make (from the Charge rules). If Stormblades under Blitz A) assault, B) make into melee range, and C) destroy their only valid melee target with Assault shots, then they just can't do anything. I only point this out because it is not a failed charge, which means that some hypothetical future ability that granted Stormblades something after their combat action *would* work in this case, but would not work after an actual failed charge.

[LordColdwater]

@PG_Agamemnon. where do you get that assault is a melee order? on the card it only says assault(order). the fact that it allows a ranged attack at the end of a charge and also ignores the in melee penalty makes is a special charge order, but i see nothing making it melee OR ranged. i'm pretty new to war machine but i have not seen any melee or ranged orders, just orders. and the way pHaleys feat reads leads me to believe that it could be applied to any primary weapon attack. also, are there any melee weapons with a ROF?

[PG_viggo3000]

Yea stormblades rocks with phaley. All casters that can make them hitt or give them more range is awesome. pCain can give them both snipe and deadeye.

But remember kidds. cygnar troops sucks.

[lobachevskii]

... but i have not seen any melee or ranged orders, just orders. and the way pHaleys feat reads leads me to believe that it could be applied to any primary weapon attack. also, are there any melee weapons with a ROF?

You are correct that there is no such thing as a ranged or melee order per se.

However:
1) Assault requires that models in the unit "charge or run".
2) Charge requires that models make a melee attack against a specified model in their combat action. (Or if that model is killed, a melee attack against some other model in range.) There is no option to make a ranged attack in the combat action of a model which has charged.
3) Blitz specifies that the affected model gets an additional attack, a defined game term, which means a normal attack of the same type as has already been made in the model's combat action.
4) Since the model has not had an opportunity to make a ranged attack in its combat action, it cannot make a ranged additional attack with Blitz even if it has not made a melee attack.

No, melee weapons do not have ROF. Why?

[LordColdwater]

You are correct that there is no such thing as a ranged or melee order per se.

However:
1) Assault requires that models in the unit "charge or run".
2) Charge requires that models make a melee attack against a specified model in their combat action. (Or if that model is killed, a melee attack against some other model in range.) There is no option to make a ranged attack in the combat action of a model which has charged.
3) Blitz specifies that the affected model gets an additional attack, a defined game term, which means a normal attack of the same type as has already been made in the model's combat action.
4) Since the model has not had an opportunity to make a ranged attack in its combat action, it cannot make a ranged additional attack with Blitz even if it has not made a melee attack.

No, melee weapons do not have ROF. Why?

just wondering on the ROF. a charge only requires to target declared, if the declared target is out of range but another is within range then the activation continues. though the first attack on the second target is not considered a charge attack. and all additional attacks are then resolved as normal. if after a charge NO target is within range then the charge fails and that model ends its activation. (pg 47 hordes primal) Each additional attack is a normal attack made with any appropriate weapon the model possesses, including multiple attacks with the same weapon. (pg 49 hordes primal) additional attacks DO though count against a weapons ROF but blitz reads "Friendly faction models beginning their activations in Haley's control area can make one additional attack that activation this turn regardless of a weapons ROF.
so as long as you do not fail the charge and are not in melee after the charge attack is complete you CAN make another storm glaive blast following all other rules that apply.

[sleet01]

...
3) Blitz specifies that the affected model gets an additional attack, a defined game term, which means a normal attack of the same type as has already been made in the model's combat action.
...

All very good info and quite correct. However, we can expand the definition of "additional attack" to include any attacks that a model is normally allowed to make during its activation, taking all relevant rules into account. This means:
- A friendly faction model that runs is not allowed to make any attacks at all, even under Blitz, because it has no combat action.
- A friendly faction model that makes a normal charge can only gain additional melee attacks from Blitz, but cannot make *any* attacks if it fails its charge because its activation immediately ends.
- A friendly faction model that has Virtuoso and Gunfighter, and both melee and ranged weapons, could gain either a melee or a ranged attack from Blitz regardless of the type of attack it made initially. Currently this only applies to Holt with Murdoch attached.
- And of course, a Storm Blade that Assaults cannot gain an additional ranged attack from Blitz, no matter *what* its situation regarding melee range, because Assault is identical to a Charge with the sole exception of the post-move ranged attack it grants, and Charging precludes ranged attacks (barring special rules like Virtuoso and Gunfighter).

just wondering on the ROF. a charge only requires to target declared, if the declared target is out of range but another is within range then the activation continues. though the first attack on the second target is not considered a charge attack. and all additional attacks are then resolved as normal. if after a charge NO target is within range then the charge fails and that model ends its activation. (pg 47 hordes primal) Each additional attack is a normal attack made with any appropriate weapon the model possesses, including multiple attacks with the same weapon. (pg 49 hordes primal) additional attacks DO though count against a weapons ROF but blitz reads "Friendly faction models beginning their activations in Haley's control area can make one additional attack that activation this turn regardless of a weapons ROF.
so as long as you do not fail the charge and are not in melee after the charge attack is complete you CAN make another storm glaive blast following all other rules that apply.

Wrong. Sorry, dead wrong.

A Charge has two parts: the movement, and the attack. In order for a model's charge to succeed, that model must be in melee with its charge target at the end of its movement. The melee disposition of any other models are irrelevant to that fail/succeed check. If a model makes a charge and does not get into melee with its charge target, the charge has failed.

Once a model's charge has succeeded, it must attack its charge target if it can. If, however, some other actor - a spell effect, another model's charge attack, this model's own Assault shot - removes the target *between* the end of this model's movement and the start of this model's attack, this model may use its initial attack against another target; this attack is not a charge attack.

As for why a ranged attack is normally not allowed during a charge, and why Assault is one rule that specifically makes the combination possible, I don't have my rulebook on me but here's a link covering the rule and the logic. Here's another one covering the exact rule that disallows ranged attacks during charges. Searching the rules forum will doubtless uncover many more.

[lobachevskii]

- A friendly faction model that has Virtuoso and Gunfighter, and both melee and ranged weapons, could gain either a melee or a ranged attack from Blitz regardless of the type of attack it made initially. Currently this only applies to Holt with Murdoch attached.

Dagnabit ... I knew I should have left the corner case examples in ...

[sleet01]

Dagnabit ... I knew I should have left the corner case examples in ...

You covered 99% of the cases, so I had only this one corner to work in!

[Tieger]

As for why a ranged attack is normally not allowed during a charge, and why Assault is one rule that specifically makes the combination possible, I don't have my rulebook on me but here's a link covering the rule and the logic. Here's another one covering the exact rule that disallows ranged attacks during charges. Searching the rules forum will doubtless uncover many more.

just to be clear, because thats worried me a bit, a model with Gunfighter could still charge and make its gunfighter attacks (which are, afterall, ranged attacks), right? nothing in the charge rules *specifically* disallows ranged attacks, it just doesnt *allow* them, either... right?

[ShockwaveIIC]

just to be clear, because thats worried me a bit, a model with Gunfighter could still charge and make its gunfighter attacks (which are, afterall, ranged attacks), right? nothing in the charge rules *specifically* disallows ranged attacks, it just doesnt *allow* them, either... right?

Correct. It is the "no ranged attacks while in Melee that prevents ranged attacks. Which Gunfighter specifically counters.

[Istarune]

just to be clear, because thats worried me a bit, a model with Gunfighter could still charge and make its gunfighter attacks (which are, afterall, ranged attacks), right? nothing in the charge rules *specifically* disallows ranged attacks, it just doesnt *allow* them, either... right?

Correct. It is the "no ranged attacks while in Melee that prevents ranged attacks. Which Gunfighter specifically counters.

This is truth. When you make your initial attacks in a turn, you must choose either your initial ranged, or initial melee attacks. Models with point blank make MELEE attacks with their ranged weapon. Gunfighter makes RANGED attacks with a melee range. Virtuoso enables you to do both in the same activation, assault lets you make a ranged attack before you make your initial attacks (either melee or ranged). Thus, a Sea Dog gets to use both his gun and his sword, because point blank makes them both initial melee attacks. Charging Ashlynn gets to use both, because virtuoso lets her make both initial melee and ranged attacks during her activation. Assaulting trenchers get to use both because they are making a ranged attack from assault, and using only initial melee attacks.

[lobachevskii]

just to be clear, because thats worried me a bit, a model with Gunfighter could still charge and make its gunfighter attacks (which are, afterall, ranged attacks), right? nothing in the charge rules *specifically* disallows ranged attacks, it just doesnt *allow* them, either... right?

Correct. It is the "no ranged attacks while in Melee that prevents ranged attacks. Which Gunfighter specifically counters.

Let's just be slightly careful here shall we.

The charge rules specify:

A charging model that ends its charge movement with its charge target in its melee range has made a successful charge. It must use its action to make a combat action choosing to make either initial melee attacks or (...) a melee special attack.

Charging does, in general, require melee attacks.

Gunfighter allows models to make ranged attacks against models within its melee range and also says:

A model with the Gunfighter advantage can make charges. If it makes a charge it can make its initial attacks with its ranged weapons.

That second sentence specifically exempts models with Gunfighter from needing to melee attacks after a charge.

Simply being able to make ranged attacks in melee is not sufficient to allow ranged attacks to be made after a charge. My copy of Colossals is currently on loan, so I can't check the following interaction, but maybe someone else can disaster check it for me.

I know that Colossals have a rule that allows them to make ranged attacks against models when they are in melee. I don't believe they generically have any special rule which allows them to make ranged attacks after charging. In general then, a Colossal which charges must make initial melee attacks or a melee special attack. It does not get the option to charge Model A, shoot Model A, and then launch additional (many) shots down range at whatever target it's controller fancies.

To reiterate:
1) Charging requires that you make melee attacks unless you have a special rule which says otherwise.
2) In the example cited, Gunfighter, you are specifically allowed to make ranged attacks after charging. There are other examples of this which have been listed.
3) It is not sufficient simply to be able to make ranged attacks while in melee.

Sorry about the bolding, I thought some additional emphasis on some of these points would help.

[Tieger]

ah k, that explains it, thanks very much i thought that was the case, but i dont have my copy of the rules here (they tend to live where i play :P), so just seeing 'charging forces you to make melee attacks' had me a bit worried that i'd been cheating :P