The paradox that is Torch.

[wargolem]

I have used him enough now to finally have an opinion on him and I honestly think he is much maligned. We always get into the what if's and why we have better melee options and better ranged options, but I have had a lot of success with him. I will grant you part of it is that I personally face a lot of Legion and a lot of Cryx and his immunities make him work very well. When an opponent wastes a lot of fury for a ranged shot with carniviean and I just get to say o.k. I take no damage due to the immunity it is almost too sweet.

So does anyone out there have any good experiences with Torch they would like to share?





just an insane list that also includes open fist,relentless charge, and virtuoso.

[StefDa]

Torch is a very, very good Warjack. His only (and I literally mean only) weakness is that Beast-09 is a single measly point more. But that's a big weakness, sadly. I do love Torch, though.

[rivenwyrm]

I will grant you part of it is that I personally face a lot of Legion and a lot of Cryx and his immunities make him work very well. When an opponent wastes a lot of fury for a ranged shot with carniviean and I just get to say o.k. I take no damage due to the immunity it is almost too sweet.

Sorry, but this is not Torch being good, this is your opponents not reading your cards well. I'm sure they'll figure out pretty quickly they ought to be spending their attacks doing something other than shooting him. There are probably other good targets. It's useful in that it means he doesn't get peppered by ravagores or vanquishers, but that's the only good use in the entire game. A Carni which just beats on him rather than spraying him will take him down easy.

[Steamwitch]

Torch should have cost 9. IMO. Torch is a support killer. No other jack fills this role. At all. The spray is 6 boohoo. Well its still 6" of cover & steath ignoreing contenus fire dishing death and should be used as sutch. The most compareable jack to torch is a kodiak. Pathfinder, cloud, and # of attacks. However torch is better. Pathfinder on charge only kinda sucks but oh well, his could is not harmfull to you, and he gets all attacks not haveing to hit the same target. His ripsaw is better than most of our other jacks for sustain attack while others rely on boosting for crit fishing, or buring one focus in general he only spends mabey one to hit. Then gets 2-3 auto hitting attacks unbonded thats 6! bonded thats 7 max hits. No, no other jack can do that better reach causes your opponent to keep there amry a bit back more in my exp makeinf you miss the chance to use the fist. Also his whole stat card says "i eat units that hug jacks and the jacks are dead too" he is a spechal peice.

[OldOneEye]

I think Torch's "problem" is the same problem that people had with the Spriggan for so many years. Torch is a toolbox 'jack, and a lot of players in our faction don't like toolboxes.

If you bring up Torch's RAT 5 spray, you're going to get told that it's useless on a SPD 4 model with a 6" spray.

You like that Torch is MAT 7? So is Beast-09, who has all those other melee abilities for only a point more. And so on...

I appreciate having that kind of a toolbox, though. The fact that Torch CAN be one of several kinds of threats makes it that much more difficult to neutralize it.

[Ganso]

hen gets 2-3 auto hitting attacks unbonded thats 6! bonded thats 7 max hits.

Just a clarification, nothing in the game can currently give a warjack bond to Torch for regular games.

[Jake the Dog]

Just a clarification, nothing in the game can currently give a warjack bond to Torch for regular games.

But he can be bonded in a Campaign!

[IronComrade]

I have yet to really play a lot with Torch but I plan to. I'll tell you this much, if you ever plan on taking a decimator, you should always pay the extra point and take torch instead.

[scout's honor]

I'll tell you this much, if you ever plan on taking a decimator, you should always pay the extra point and take torch instead.

You can tell me that as often as you want, but I disagree. If I plan on taking a Decimator, I plan on taking it for the dozer gun. It'll be a niche option and won't happen often and whatever, but if the Decimator's gun isn't what I'm looking for I'll always prefer another type of jack. Torch doesn't have that gun, so whatever I'm thinking about that makes me want to take a Decimator doesn't apply to Torch. It's the same chassis, but they never compete for the same spot in a list of mine.

[Tico Love]

I agree with you Scout. Torch is one of those rare Character 'Jacks who is not just an Improved version of the original, but a totally reinvented one. He fits a very different role in the army than the Decimator.

[Evilmerlin]

The Decimator is a melee jack with a gun. Torch on the other hand is a full on melee jack. That spray? Please, it's melee weapon with a 6" reach.

[HellVenom]

Torch successfully solves the problem the Decimator has had with its melee role and the buzz saw and granting upkeeps like superiority to it, with the open fist and the flame thrower. While not an amazing combo, give it three available attacks without spending focus. The flame thrower even with RAT 5 is useful for those awkward moments when it kills the enemy jack early and has some infantry nearby and the focus to burn.

It is a jack than can fill both the support and all-star role in a list like the Spriggan and like the Spriggan has an ability to support the other models in the list something Beast can't do. I've been running him since the internet pre-release and have never regretted putting him in a list.

[Marth]

The big advantage Torch has over Beast 09, for one point less, is a greatly reduced perceived threat. Beast is reknown, much like the great bears, and that gets him killed fast. Torch is in the category of "give me his card, I'd like to know what he does (before the game)", and that usually leads to people likely underestimating him.

[scout's honor]

The big advantage Torch has over Beast 09, for one point less, is a greatly reduced perceived threat. Beast is reknown, much like the great bears, and that gets him killed fast. Torch is in the category of "give me his card, I'd like to know what he does (before the game)", and that usually leads to people likely underestimating him.

That's a bit simplistic: Beast 09 *is* a greater threat after all. By more than that margin of a single point. I'd say the Bears are a bigger threat too, and they're even cheaper than Torch is - but at least they're easier to kill. If Torch isn't skipped over by an opponent to deal with other models in the list first despite them in actuality being less of a priority (no matter what they are), this is a moot argument.

[Wisible]

I have used him enough now to finally have an opinion on him and I honestly think he is much maligned. We always get into the what if's and why we have better melee options and better ranged options, but I have had a lot of success with him. I will grant you part of it is that I personally face a lot of Legion and a lot of Cryx and his immunities make him work very well. When an opponent wastes a lot of fury for a ranged shot with carniviean and I just get to say o.k. I take no damage due to the immunity it is almost too sweet.

So does anyone out there have any good experiences with Torch they would like to share?

just an insane list that also includes open fist,relentless charge, and virtuoso.

The opinion of Torch on this forum is group-think plain and simple. Torch is a very solid warjack and I've used it successfully with different casters. No, it's not the best jack Khador has, not at all. But if you can't make use of a jack with three initial attacks and relentless charge I don't know what to tell you. Toolbox jack through and through. Unfortunately, fanboys read things on the internet and assume they are true without ever testing it themselves.

[quindraco]

The opinion of Torch on this forum is group-think plain and simple. Torch is a very solid warjack and I've used it successfully with different casters. No, it's not the best jack Khador has, not at all. But if you can't make use of a jack with three initial attacks and relentless charge I don't know what to tell you. Toolbox jack through and through. Unfortunately, fanboys read things on the internet and assume they are true without ever testing it themselves.

'Three initials' is rather misleading, sir, since there is an incredibly short list of situations in which you want all three of his - for example, against most enemy heavies, the spray is merely an afterthought. Relentless charge is worse than pure pathfinder, and there's a reason most people never manage to get their kodiaks onto the table despite adoring the jack (I love mine too and it hasn't seen play in forever). Torch isn't worth his points, and that's not me blindly following groupthink - I've proxied the thing and tried it out, although admittedly not with Strakhov.

[scout's honor]

Toolbox jack through and through.

Smoke bombs and, to a much lesser extent, the flame thrower/open fist. That's it as far as being a toolbox goes. Let's not overestimate this either. Compared to Beast 09 with reach, thresher and also an open fist, it's really only the smoke bombs that make Torch more of a toolbox jack - and using smoke bombs is a *action.

[hoya4life3381]

That's a bit simplistic: Beast 09 *is* a greater threat after all. By more than that margin of a single point. I'd say the Bears are a bigger threat too, and they're even cheaper than Torch is - but at least they're easier to kill. If Torch isn't skipped over by an opponent to deal with other models in the list first despite them in actuality being less of a priority (no matter what they are), this is a moot argument.

Unfortunately, what Marth is saying is really true. If everyone perceives that something is higher quality and safer, then it doesn't really matter whether it really is or isn't.

Opponent's do perceive Torch and Spriggan as less dangerous than Beast. However, if you're using your jack to charge another jack, is Torch/Spriggan really going to that much less?

Beast also often makes the player hyper-aggresive (zing!). You're tempted to push him as far forward, go after targets you shouldn't, and feel that he's all-powerful. When I used to play Beast a lot, I'd find myself taking down a nice 8-9 pt jacks and then losing Beast right away.

The combination of opponent's perception on Beast's danger and the player's own tempation to be a bit more reckless really do create a very different tabletop situation between taking Torch vs. Beast.

[x3tsniper]

The opinion of Torch on this forum is group-think plain and simple. Torch is a very solid warjack and I've used it successfully with different casters. No, it's not the best jack Khador has, not at all. But if you can't make use of a jack with three initial attacks and relentless charge I don't know what to tell you. Toolbox jack through and through. Unfortunately, fanboys read things on the internet and assume they are true without ever testing it themselves.

It isn't really group think. You said it yourself, he isn't the best jack khador has. Not in the top 2, that is for sure. Now answer me this, why would you take something that isn't one of those options when you are only taking 1-2 jacks at most in the majority of your lists?

Honestly, I would rather take a destroyer over torch. They can start fighting long before Torch can. Hell, I barely field Beast09.

[scout's honor]

If everyone perceives that something is higher quality and safer, then it doesn't really matter whether it really is or isn't.

I think you're missing the point (probably because I'm not making it clearly enough): if something of yours is perceived as less of a threat and therefore left alone a bit longer by your opponent, you don't get any kind of benefit out of that if that something actually is that much less of a threat. Weak (which Torch may or may not be) models getting left alone because they're weak is not an advantage, only models getting left alone because they appear weaker than they are is an advantage. If your opponent is accurate in his assessments that shouldn't never be counted as something in your favour.

Beast also often makes the player hyper-aggresive (zing!). You're tempted to push him as far forward, go after targets you shouldn't, and feel that he's all-powerful. When I used to play Beast a lot, I'd find myself taking down a nice 8-9 pt jacks and then losing Beast right away.

With all due respect, a player's tactical mistakes with a model shouldn't reflect on how good said model is or isn't.

[hoya4life3381]

I think you're missing the point (probably because I'm not making it clearly enough): if something of yours is perceived as less of a threat and therefore left alone a bit longer by your opponent, you don't get any kind of benefit out of that if that something actually is that much less of a threat. Weak (which Torch may or may not be) models getting left alone because they're weak is not an advantage, only models getting left alone because they appear weaker than they are is an advantage. If your opponent is accurate in his assessments that shouldn't never be counted as something in your favour.


With all due respect, a player's tactical mistakes with a model shouldn't reflect on how good said model is or isn't.

Torch vs. Beast is probably a bad example since they are so different. Don't want to veer the topic off-track but a better comparison is Spriggan vs. Beast since they both have reach.

I think it's just a playstyle difference. I lead with my infantry and use my jacks as counter-chargers. This is how I've had the most success using my jacks rather than trying to fling them forward. The Spriggan/Torch is much better in this role than Beast would be. The other difference is that Spriggan/Torch have other utility functions (Flares, Bulldoze, Sprays, etc) besides just bashing heads-in that make them good for supporting the army as a whole.

Beast is just a one-dimensional hammer IMO and an expensive one at that is what I'm trying to convey. I think a lot of his fame is leftover from MKI Legends when he was just ridiculous for his points cost. If anything, I think Beast has a substitution problem where Behemoth is only 2 pts more than him and affects the battlefield in so many more ways. If you look at a lot of the tournament lists out there, even though they can take Beast, a lot of players will pick Spriggan over Beast because of utility and better synergy with their lists.

Beast is obviously a superior Assasination threat because of Murderous, but I haven't faced many opponent's that have let me get the charge on their caster with such an obvious threat.

I used to be all for Beast too, but once I started playing the Spriggan more and realizing how it integrates into your list better, I became a convert. If you're playing super-aggresive casters such as eVlad/Vlad 3, Karchev Tow list, or an all-charging eSorscha list, sure Beast makes more sense since you're basically trying to threat saturate and overload (losses be d**ned approach). However, if you're playing a more balanced list with shooting, advancing systematically, seeking to gain advantages through positioning and positive model trades, Torch/Spriggan type jacks are better suited.

[Marth]

@Scout's Honour: I wasn't trying to say that Torch is as good as Beast. But he might actually make it to where I want to because of not being bull's eye'd as much. A dead 11 points is still worse than a, let's say, performing 10 points.

I do concede a point to you, though: Something that's less of a factual threat than something else can't exactly boast about having a reduced perceived threat as an advantage. I just don't think this applies to Torch v. Beast, which may or may not be a flawed comparison from the get-go.

I'd also agree with hoya4life on the left-over fame issue. An 11 point Beast is, finally, priced right. But maybe I've been using him wrongly or are a bad player, but he just... he is harldy more than a Jug with a reach axe. Hyper Aggressive is a trap (that can be avoided with some skill, okay), but I cannot recall when I used murderous last - or wanted to - because he rarely made it to the caster, and thusly didn't need that boost in most cases.

It could be a point of caster choice - I don't own Strakhov. And I should try to get over the ranged attack thing and just bring an all melee jack list with Harkevich, but haven't done so, yet.

At any rate - Torch will get his awesome MGS-3 Fire Camo paint job and start dissecting enemies until he is hated more than beast.

[profparm]

I do concede a point to you, though:

Someone's conceding a point on the internet, even if it's only half of the argument?

SHUT IT DOWN! WE'RE DONE HERE!


I haven't played with Torch yet, but this discussion is really making me want to try it out (which I did kinda anyway, I'm just still slowly acquiring 'jacks since I play so few per game). I like the notion of the ability to play around with a jack-heavy Khador list if you can tweak it to be effective and have the surprise factor in a multi-list format, and I think Torch would play an essential role in any list with more than 2 Jacks, in that he can take care of heavies with sustained and infantry with his flamethrower. When people mention his utility, that seems to be what they're referring to; even Sprigs doesn't usually use his grenades for infantry as much (as a thread probably still on the front page details). I wouldn't mind trying Torch out in a list where I have some jacks possibly marshalled (gasp!) OR as reinforcements, since he'd come in close to the enemy with 3 free focus.

[quindraco]

Someone's conceding a point on the internet, even if it's only half of the argument?

SHUT IT DOWN! WE'RE DONE HERE!


I haven't played with Torch yet, but this discussion is really making me want to try it out (which I did kinda anyway, I'm just still slowly acquiring 'jacks since I play so few per game). I like the notion of the ability to play around with a jack-heavy Khador list if you can tweak it to be effective and have the surprise factor in a multi-list format, and I think Torch would play an essential role in any list with more than 2 Jacks, in that he can take care of heavies with sustained and infantry with his flamethrower. When people mention his utility, that seems to be what they're referring to; even Sprigs doesn't usually use his grenades for infantry as much (as a thread probably still on the front page details). I wouldn't mind trying Torch out in a list where I have some jacks possibly marshalled (gasp!) OR as reinforcements, since he'd come in close to the enemy with 3 free focus.

His flamethrower has 2-4 less threat than an AK flamethrower unless you manage to charge something, and the spray is still snubnosed afted charging. I wouldn't get my hopes up for any serious amount of infantry clearing if I were you.

[scout's honor]

An 11 point Beast is, finally, priced right. But maybe I've been using him wrongly or are a bad player, but he just... he is harldy more than a Jug with a reach axe. Hyper Aggressive is a trap (that can be avoided with some skill, okay), but I cannot recall when I used murderous last - or wanted to - because he rarely made it to the caster, and thusly didn't need that boost in most cases.

This ties into the bigger jack issue a lot of Khador players have. Maybe Beast *is* indead just a Juggy on steroids, but if we're looking at one or two jacks in a list he's still the best choice for a melee beatstick so why "settle" for less? At least he is that much, whereas Torch - as a melee jack - isn't any better than a Juggy in my book (other than Relentless Charge, which I like quite a lot but which isn't worth that many points). And while Beast may not have the smoke bombs, he's arguably better at dealing with infantry as well as with enemy heavies than Torch is. Torch isn't terrible, but he is a bit overcosted (or short on abilities, whichever way you want to look at it) and he's not a top pick in a category of models only very few of which can get a place in a list.

His flamethrower has 2-4 less threat than an AK flamethrower unless you manage to charge something, and the spray is still snubnosed afted charging. I wouldn't get my hopes up for any serious amount of infantry clearing if I were you.

That's the AKs' one claim to fame: best flamethrower in the Empire (AK units really only count as delivery platforms for the WAs, but that's another thread), better than what we put on our jacks. Honestly, give the AK flamethrower to Torch and it's a whole other story.

[PG_Pyrodude32]

'Three initials' is rather misleading, sir, since there is an incredibly short list of situations in which you want all three of his - for example, against most enemy heavies, the spray is merely an afterthought. Relentless charge is worse than pure pathfinder, and there's a reason most people never manage to get their kodiaks onto the table despite adoring the jack (I love mine too and it hasn't seen play in forever). Torch isn't worth his points, and that's not me blindly following groupthink - I've proxied the thing and tried it out, although admittedly not with Strakhov.

Against a heavy maybe the spray won't do any damage - but catching choir/mechanics behind heavy jacks is always a bonus (or the occasional shepard)

[scout's honor]

Against a heavy maybe the spray won't do any damage - but catching choir/mechanics behind heavy jacks is always a bonus (or the occasional shepard)

Considering you need 7s to hit the Choir with that RAT 5 unless you have a way to improve your accuracy and you'll normally not get to target more than a single Choir member unless your opponent throws you a bone and that's a rather situational opportunity to begin with, I'm not really sold on that argument.

[PG_LunarSol]

Considering you need 7s to hit the Choir with that RAT 5 unless you have a way to improve your accuracy and you'll normally not get to target more than a single Choir member unless your opponent throws you a bone and that's a rather situational opportunity to begin with, I'm not really sold on that argument.

Also, its super fun when the choir is singing no shooting on the jack you're trying to spray through to hit hit them....

[Septimus]

If I'm taking Torch in a list, I'm using the smoke bombs. A second wave heavy that works to keep my caster alive instead of just sitting around waiting appeals to me.

[volt_ron]

I've never gotten the B09 > Torch arguments.

What makes B09 so much better for 1 point? Reach? I find that he's too slow to make proper use of his thresher. Units can generally outmanuever him to avoid it.

Torch hits at -1 Pow on his main, +1 Pow on his offhand, and gets a third with 6" reach and fire. Fully loaded this guy can put out a ton of attacks, half of which autohit! Plus the immunities, pathfinder on the charge, smoke bombs. Plus he looks so damn awesome. Wah wah, the spray is only 6". That's another weapon you wouldn't have otherwise, plus it can be a game opener. Choir boys giving you trouble? Burn baby Burn, etc.

[PG_Pyrodude32]

Considering you need 7s to hit the Choir with that RAT 5 unless you have a way to improve your accuracy and you'll normally not get to target more than a single Choir member unless your opponent throws you a bone and that's a rather situational opportunity to begin with, I'm not really sold on that argument.

So - relatively a 50/50 chance to hit a choir member (which just happens to be one of the most obnoxious support pieces in the game), on a warjack that you have the option to boost if you really really need it gone. Nope - can't think of a single possible way to boost accuracy. It sure is nice that the spray is a "free" attack that you don't have to buy. Crazy me

Also, its super fun when the choir is singing no shooting on the jack you're trying to spray through to hit hit them....

You don't have to target the warjack... Charge to the side - make your initial melee attack against the jack. Then target the choir member that sung the hymm on the jack

[Wisible]

I've never gotten the B09 > Torch arguments.

What makes B09 so much better for 1 point? Reach? I find that he's too slow to make proper use of his thresher. Units can generally outmanuever him to avoid it.

Torch hits at -1 Pow on his main, +1 Pow on his offhand, and gets a third with 6" reach and fire. Fully loaded this guy can put out a ton of attacks, half of which autohit! Plus the immunities, pathfinder on the charge, smoke bombs. Plus he looks so damn awesome. Wah wah, the spray is only 6". That's another weapon you wouldn't have otherwise, plus it can be a game opener. Choir boys giving you trouble? Burn baby Burn, etc.

Thanks Volt. This is the way I should have framed my case earlier.

[scout's honor]

So - relatively a 50/50 chance to hit a choir member (which just happens to be one of the most obnoxious support pieces in the game), on a warjack that you have the option to boost if you really really need it gone. Nope - can't think of a single possible way to boost accuracy. It sure is nice that the spray is a "free" attack that you don't have to buy. Crazy me

That's 58%, actually!

And yes, being able to take out a choir boy is definitely worth something. Whether it's worth a point of focus to take out 1, maybe 2 choir boys out of 4 when you just went into melee with a heavy (and barring an applicable feat already were spending focus either to charge or on a spell to allow Torch to charge) and may want to buy another attack or two to make sure the jack you just charged is sufficiently wrecked, that's another question.

As for the initial spray being "free" - it comes on a jack you spent 10 points on, out of however many you got. Compared to taking a Juggernaut you're 3 points in the red, compared to taking the Behemoth you're up 3. It's all relative.

[Marth]

Maybe Beast *is* indead just a Juggy on steroids, but if we're looking at one or two jacks in a list he's still the best choice for a melee beatstick so why "settle" for less?

I was going to say, "lack of points" - but in that case, the Spriggan or Black Ivan might get picked first at any rate, and for good reasons.

Torch isn't terrible, but he is a bit overcosted (or short on abilities, whichever way you want to look at it) and he's not a top pick in a category of models only very few of which can get a place in a list.

I prefer "short on abilities", though I wouldn't know what else to slap onto him without making him too good, so "high in points" is the more likely flaw in his design. If that even is the case. The Decimator is 9 points, and Torch has a number of abilities more than the Decimator, so he, by all means, should not cost the same. Maybe the Decimator, too, is a point too high, and would be better fitted in the Kodiak's 8-point department, without contesting the Kodiak's realm of operation.

[volt_ron]

I was going to say, "lack of points" - but in that case, the Spriggan or Black Ivan might get picked first at any rate, and for good reasons.



I prefer "short on abilities", though I wouldn't know what else to slap onto him without making him too good, so "high in points" is the more likely flaw in his design. If that even is the case. The Decimator is 9 points, and Torch has a number of abilities more than the Decimator, so he, by all means, should not cost the same. Maybe the Decimator, too, is a point too high, and would be better fitted in the Kodiak's 8-point department, without contesting the Kodiak's realm of operation.

Are you guys insane?! Torch short on abilities? I think he has the most abilities out of ALL of our jacks! B09 is just an overpriced Juggernaut. He's definitely not worth 4 points for reach IMO.

I do agree with you on the Decimator however, I think he should be 8 points and then we'll probably see him more. But I see why they put him at 9. Between him and the Destroyer, one has a better gun (arguably) and one has the better melee.

[scout's honor]

I do agree with you on the Decimator however, I think he should be 8 points and then we'll probably see him more.

I think I'll still prefer the Juggernaut most of the time. Make it 10 points and give the Decimator Gunfighter/Virtuoso though and I'm on board, even if the gun is difficult to use effectively.

[PG_LunarSol]

You don't have to target the warjack... Charge to the side - make your initial melee attack against the jack. Then target the choir member that sung the hymm on the jack

Sure you do. You have to target models in melee with Gunfighter. I suppose its possible you kill the jack with your other initials first, but then you charged something that probably wasn't worth charging.

[Frege]

I like Torch as an idea but it is hard to pick him.

You have to justify him over the following three choices.
1) Beast 09 (if you are going to a super beatstick)
2) Spriggan (if you are going for a toolbox beatstick)
3) Juggernaut (if you just want a hitty jack)

Obviously with his range he cant be considered a ranged jack. The one thing he has over the above three is relentless charge. That is nice but a lot of casters can give pathfinder on feat (e.g. strakhov) or through boundless charge (e.g. pVlad, pSorcsha, eButcher).

I like sustained attack and I like relentless charge and i like the immunities and I like the option of smoke bombs. I also like the 3 initials (and boostable sprays are always a good thing even if short ranged). However, choosing him over Spriggan is tough for me (reach + bulldoze is the goods). I've wanted to test him with pIrusk for a while since he has no way of giving a jack pathfinder. Dunno if its worth it.

[Aylw]

I like Torch, but at 10 points, he's a bit expensive. at 9 I'd take him all the time. Love the model.

As for Torch charging a Jack and then choir, it's not that often that they'd choose 'no shooting' when Torch is in charge range.
When you're that close, they're usually using the attack chant. I believe you can also elect not to shoot on initial, and then if you kill the Jack in your first 3 or 4 hits, you can shoot the choir by buying the attack with leftover focus.

Back to the original request for good Torch stories:

vs Ret, the guy had some pikemen lined up just out of charge range, with his caster behind them. He thought he was safe from Torch.

Instead, I charged my assault Kommandos first, running one up right in front of the pikemen.

Then I charged the kommando with Torch, using the flamer as the first weapon, shooting through the crowd, and boosting the hit on his caster. BOOM. Boost damage, and now Garryth is on fire and half life.

His turn, he takes more fire damage, and has to run away and heal, allowing me to win by scenario. Respect the 13" threat range.

Another one:

With pSorcha on feat turn, used Torch to push a Juggernaut into charge range of scrapping a heavy, and then also using one focus to buy the flamer on nearby frozen halberdiers that were blocking the charge lane.

[Revamp]

Feel free to look at my torch tactica if you want to look at the possibilities: Here (shameless plug)

On topic, i personally use Torch over beast every time. I have them both (in fact i've got 1 of every jack) but for the most part i tend to run him all the time. I start picking jacks with torch. The reason for this is that torch always has a place. He's hard to put down, does great damage, and hits like a truck. I know others (probably scout) will say that torch is a second string pick at best, but it does enough different thing that he always has something to do in any game. Try him with any caster and he's great. Bring a Koldun Lord and he's even better. Anyway, point is Torch is good. If you like shredding things, take Torch. If you want something else, take someone else. personally, i usually take black ivan and torch together and awesome ensues.