Question about the rules

[thayan_knight]

I just asking, are the rules supposed to be a literal interpretation of what is written. Such as you can't charge is you hit another models base, even if on a hill. I ask cause it just seems like no matter what I try, my opponent is always quoting rules that seems to be used against me.


Just last time I played I charge my warbeast and the charge had failed cause I hit another models base, even though the warbeast was over an inch on a hill.

[Tallyrand]

You'll get a quicker response in the Rule's forum, I'm a relatively new player so I'm not entirely sure on the ruling but I think that your friend is correct in their interpretation.

[r3tr3ad]

Elevation has nothing to do with charge lanes. It's pretty clearly stated that if your model contacts an intervening model, the charge fails.

[PG_UndeadDan]

I'm not exactly sure what happened in the scenario described, but to answer the more general question: Yes, the rules are meant to be taken exactly as written. Unlike a roleplaying game where there is a lot of room for interpretation and nuance, WM/H is meant to be a rock solid, unbiased foundation for a fair and interesting game.

I have some sympathy for your position, I came from RPGs and was used to the rules being much fuzzier and less exact than what they are in WM/H. It took some getting used to but I found that I like the extreme specificity of the rules set.

If you wish to elaborate on the specific scenario you mentioned, I'm sure I or someone else on the boards would be more than happy to help clarify the interactions that apply to that situation.

[PG_UndeadDan]

You'll get a quicker response in the Rule's forum, I'm a relatively new player so I'm not entirely sure on the ruling but I think that your friend is correct in their interpretation.

I'm not sure he was looking for a specific ruling, rather more of a philosophy of rules application in the greater WM/H community.

[thayan_knight]

True I was asking, cause I was starting to think that people at PP must be really up tight. But now I understand a little better. So I maybe that I'll in a game right 0 and 97.

[Sheer_Falacy]

If you hit another model's base, and it's on a hill, then your model is presumably also on a hill - I'm not sure how that's any different than hitting another model's base any other time.

[PG_LonelyMonk]

A couple of questions

Do you have a rule book?

Have you read the rule book?

[PG_Agamemnon]

I would ask if English is your first language. Only because it does not make sense that you hit a models base over 1" on a hill. Did your model have flight, acrobatics or some other rule that let it ignore intervening models? Did his model have a special rule that does not let you charge past it once you enter a specific distance from it? I can think of if Nemo Voltanic Snare/Tractor Fields a jack or Locker from a Sentry.

[thayan_knight]

Yes I do have the rulebook and I have read it. my question come up cause the the so called hill wasn't a slope but a 90 degree square with dirt on. At the time I thought it was counted as some kind of wall of cliff.

As for the confusion, I am just not used to the literal meaning that are used in this game. I saw my warbeast above the other model and assumed it was.

That's all

[PG_Agamemnon]

If there was a 90 degee wall... was his models base hanging over the edge.?

It could come down to the differences in terrain between shops. Some hills are at a 90 degree on the edges and use dice to prop up the portion of the model not on the hill. If this is the case then he is correct. It may seem like his model is hovering on the hill but there is not a rule for this type of interaction on hills. However I can see it working if the slope was designated as a cliff and it was agreed that models on the cliff were above the lower level playing field. You might have to consider volume of models as well.

From what you said though it does make sense that you would have had to stop when you reached his base and he was not trying to bend the rules to his favor.

[thayan_knight]

I figured that it was me just not understanding, and for the record English is my first language. It just feels that this game hard, granted I have never played a miniatures game before.

Just from my perception seem strange to say the least.

One big question I have is dos a player have to premeasure the warlock control area if their opponent ask?

[AJ the Ronin]

I figured that it was me just not understanding, and for the record English is my first language. It just feels that this game hard, granted I have never played a miniatures game before.

Just from my perception seem strange to say the least.

One big question I have is dos a player have to premeasure the warlock control area if their opponent ask?

Not really, no.

Edit: I own you a page number since my book isn't with me. I'm sure someone will post it.

[solkan]

Complimentary page numbers for the control area thing, to save AJ the Ronin postage:

Primal Mk II, page 77.
Prime Mk II, page 75.

The Measuring Control Areas section covers both the permission for you to measure your control area whenever you want, and specifying the condition for when you have to measure your control area whether you want to or not.

[thayan_knight]

thank you very much

[Frozen Yakman]

I'm not exactly sure what happened in the scenario described, but to answer the more general question: Yes, the rules are meant to be taken exactly as written. Unlike a roleplaying game where there is a lot of room for interpretation and nuance, WM/H is meant to be a rock solid, unbiased foundation for a fair and interesting game.

That's debatable. For some intent trumps what's written. And for others, like me, whichever way is most fun trump intent or what's written.

[PG_UndeadDan]

That's debatable. For some intent trumps what's written. And for others, like me, whichever way is most fun trump intent or what's written.

In organized play, nothing trumps the written rules. And as a PG, following the text is the only way I can make a ruling. If you prefer to see the rules as "rough guidelines" that's cool, but it isn't the prevailing outlook and you should never count on others seeing them that way.

[jandrese]

That's debatable. For some intent trumps what's written.

This is not true in Warmachine. Rules work as written. Sometimes what is written can be ambiguous and you have to ask for the intent, but generally you play exactly what you read and you'll get it right. The ambiguous points tend to be very hair splitting as well.

For instance, eBaldur's feat applies one of his spells to his entire army. Easy enough. But what happens with "Blessed" which ignores "spell effects". Was it a spell because it came from his spell card, or is it just an "effect" that gets turned into a spell when cast as a spell, but not a spell when used as the feat? Or is it always a spell because it's on the spell card. This part isn't written down in the rules and is up for interpretation. In this case, the mods asked the developers for the intent and came back with the ruling that the feat applies an effect, not a spell, so Blessed won't work against it.

[PG_dungeongod]

I figured that it was me just not understanding, and for the record English is my first language. It just feels that this game hard, granted I have never played a miniatures game before.

Just from my perception seem strange to say the least.

In a cooperative game, like an RPG, the rules can be more fluid, because (in theory) there is no "winner" or "loser" - just an attempt at a cooperative storytelling with rules.

In a miniatures game (or boardgame, or...) you need rules that are fair and balanced, and that everyone knows up front (or has the ability to learn up front) so that you don't start to play Calvinball. Strict interpretation is the only "fair" way of doing this. When rules become unworkable, or unfair, or are not properly spelled out, this is where errata come in.

Warmachine and Hordes are high-detail games. This means that there are a lot of special cases and conditions that are different from what you might be used to with board games and RPGs. The details are there to allow for options for the player, and to try and keep the rules the same for everyone. Early on, you should expect to miss a lot of rules. My recommendation to players is to (a) skim the rulebook (b) play some games (c) read the rulebook with an eye towards the things you don't know.

If someone says "no, the rules say x" it is perfectly fine to say "can you show me where?" Or, to say "after the game, can you show me so I can learn how to find it?" It takes a while to get the rules for a lot of people - and it can be frustrating. The people who do well at this game, in my experience, are those who attempt to (As much as possible) look at each game as a learning experience, and learn new rules when they can.

[DemonCalibre]

That's debatable. For some intent trumps what's written. And for others, like me, whichever way is most fun trump intent or what's written.

This is not the case. There is no intent in Warmachine, you read the rules and do what they say. As said above there are some issues where the rules aren't clear because a particular action isn't spelled out. By and large through the vast majority of the game, you read the rule and play it that way, there is no intention you read the rules completely literally.

[thayan_knight]

Please I don't want people to get angry, This is the first miniatures game I have ever play. So there is going to be some confusion, as to the rule. For me this is a total different way of thinking.

To tell the truth I have extremely hard time with some of concept of he game.

Like I honestly don't understand how people say legion is over power. Where I play the to legion players lose about 7 games in 10. How is that overpowered?

But I really just wanted to get my questions answered and I did.

[solkan]

Lots of people take it as a point of pride that the Warmachine and Hordes rules are not subject to the same "rules as intended" vs. "rules as written" debate that rules produced by Games Workshop or other companies will be.

The honest truth of the matter is that wargame rules tend to be like any other specialized domain, like math or logic, where you end up with "rules English" or "logic English" instead of regular English. But English (as used by human beings) is never going to be a completely unambiguous or error free medium for expressing things. But Privateer Press does go to a fairly large amount of effort to ensure that you can play the game according to rules as they are written, so you should try to do so.

If you're not sure of how something works, that's why there's a beginner's forum, and a rules forum. Feel free to ask for basic explanations in the getting started forum, and for explanations of complicated seeming interactions in the rules forum.

But when in doubt, reread page five of Prime Mk II or Primal Mk II, pause, and take a few moments to discuss what's going on with your opponent. Sometimes people lose sight of the fact that a beginner might not enjoy getting beat over the head by the rules (it's entirely possible that your opponent got taught the game using the "beat you over the head with the rules" approach; or your opponent is expecting you to ask for help if you need it), and that a gentler approach to getting you used to the intricacies will get you to stick around longer.

[PG_Gannon]

Thayan good on you for trying something new. I would highly suggest that if you are having trouble you try to find a local Press Ganger to run you through the concept of the game and help you get acquainted a little better. Barring that, I'd also suggest that you re-read the rulebook. You will become a better player for it, and you'll be able to call your opponent out on any questionable rulings they try to make. Good luck, and as always you are free to ask more questions. It's what we're here for.

Edit: Here is a link for PG's in your state

http://69.162.68.197/location/users?...ll&postal_code=

[Wishing]

The original question is related to the most unpredictable and problematic aspect of the game, terrain, so it is not surprising that it seems confusing. The reason for this is that PP don't make the terrain, the players themselves do, and how to make the game rules work with the terrain you have available is mostly left up to the players themselves to decide. Ideally, before any game starts, you should discuss and agree with your opponent what the rules are for all the terrain pieces on the board and how they interact with the models used. But obviously this normally is just done on the fly.

Like I honestly don't understand how people say legion is over power. Where I play the to legion players lose about 7 games in 10. How is that overpowered?

The short answer is because factions and models aren't under- or overpowered, players are.

Essentially, when people say that Legion (or Cryx) is overpowered, they just mean that if we imagine a scenario where two players of exactly equal skill and knowledge both engage in a game making the best lists they are able to, and the dice roll average all game, then in their opinion, the overpowered faction will win. However, this is all just opinion and theory since it cannot be empirically tested, so take all claims of "X is overpowered" as what it is - personal opinion, not established fact.

[PG_Snakeman]

I figured that it was me just not understanding, and for the record English is my first language. It just feels that this game hard, granted I have never played a miniatures game before.

Just from my perception seem strange to say the least.

One big question I have is dos a player have to premeasure the warlock control area if their opponent ask?

Hey Thayan,

I'm not sure where you are in NH, but if you're in the southern portion of the state, come down and visit Toys n Things in Danvers one of these weekends when I'm running an event there or drop by the Hobby Bunker in Malden where I hang out when not in Danvers. I'll be happy to help with rules questions and learning the game. I've also got a great community of guys at both stores who are happy to help a new player learn.

The hill situation in your first post sounds like you and your opponent missed a key element for having a good game - go over all of the terrain before anyone deploys a model and make sure that both of you have the same understanding of what each piece of terrain is and what does. It just saves so much confusion and problems later.

For your specific hill, that sounds a lot like the hills I make and use locally for organized play. They have steep sides because it makes it very easy to clearly see if a model is on the hill or not (thus gaining advantage of elevation) as well as being easier to place a model on the hill (stacking dice under it if it's at the edge) than balancing a top-heavy model on the slope of a hill and wishing very hard that it doesn't fall over and damage the paint. It doesn't look as "realistic" as gently sloping hills, but it's more effective for game play.


Anyway, good luck learning the game and having fun playing. Don't be shy about asking lots of questions here and in the game store and don't be afraid to stop the action and look something up. All of us learned these rules by first recognizing that we didn't know any of them and doing a combination of asking for help and looking things up to verify.