Kreoss 3... is there anything bad about him?

[Stinkmeaner]

Personally I think Kreoss 3 is amazing. There is nothing that he doesnt do well. He supports his army well enough, Warpath allows for some much needed movement shenanigans and threat ranges. His feat allows for all of his focus to be given out and for his upkeeps to still be applied, and gets rid of enemy stuff. And he himself has awesome threat ranges and hits like a truck.

I think he is amazing, and my prediction is he will be one of the primary casters for tournaments after a very short time after release, kuddos to whoever helped playtest and develop this model....

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

I haven't had a chance to really sit down and play him as much as i'd like (mostly waiting for the model), but I love him SO much. He has a ton to offer, and is going to be one of those versatile toolbox casters. I'm really excited.

[Soulblighter]

Kreoss3 has a weaksauce feat. Thats the only bad thing about him.

[PG_lord tyrant watt]

I think he will make his way up the ladder real quick as soon as people wrap their heads around how to use him and time his feat properly to cycle his upkeeps onto the correct models.

What he does offer is options, and a ton of them. Warpath is really big for the Protectorate. Allowing their already accurate, high damage output jacks extra movement from unpredictable angles is huge!

He has an excellent damage buff in Ignite and his Venger buff. He has a superb defensive buff in Holy Ward, and while Force Hammer takes over half of his focus, it's an excellent spell to set up an assassination or to take a Jack out of the game for a turn when paired with Eiryss.

He opens up avenues that Protectorate players are not normally accustomed too.

[Stinkmeaner]

Kreoss3 has a weaksauce feat. Thats the only bad thing about him.

It seems bad at first... Like a toned down version of some other casters. However in play, it seems like you can Upkeep Ignite, allocate 6 focus (7 if you run wracks ) pop feat on his turn redistribute all his buffs. And it forces the opponent to hard cast all their buffs again. I think even his feat that i myself regarded as a weaker version of some casters will be solid. Plus he has a way to RFP models, which is HUGE against certain models and casters.. I think this guy will be a headache for a lot of people.

[TurdFerguson]

All of these "Cavalry Casters" are screaming "We need to sell our overstock of cavalry!" to me. He does look interesting, but not enough to make me wanna drop huge stacks of cash on buying all these menite models I dont currently own. But that's just me.

[Hrimfaxi]

I'm very much interested in Kreoss3, although I've yet to have time to proxy him. I like his toolboxy design with a solid feat that allows him to have access to his great spell list. The big question for me is whether or not Vengers are warranted a position in his forces as a main unit or not, as I dearly love Vengers conceptually but think they are absolutely awful for the most part mechanically. With Colossals out I'm starting to not feel safe without a list option with an Ignite caster to be able to efficiently remove Colossals/Gargantuans and I'm strongly looking at Kreoss3 as my play option in a 2 or 3 list environment.

[Soulblighter]

It seems bad at first... Like a toned down version of some other casters. However in play, it seems like you can Upkeep Ignite, allocate 6 focus (7 if you run wracks ) pop feat on his turn redistribute all his buffs. And it forces the opponent to hard cast all their buffs again. I think even his feat that i myself regarded as a weaker version of some casters will be solid. Plus he has a way to RFP models, which is HUGE against certain models and casters.. I think this guy will be a headache for a lot of people.

I know the difference between a good feat and a bad feat. His feat is definitely bad :P

But his statlines amazing, his abilities are amazing, his spell list is good, and his focus is good. So I can live with his feat being bad.

Hes not the protectorate version of eHaley like I hoped hed be, but hes still better than most of our other warcasters. Overall, Kreoss3 is a solid addition to our lineup.

[itchmonkey]

Why do I get a feeling that Warpath will cause more Deliverers to show in casual games?

[Gavriel]

Why do I get a feeling that Warpath will cause more Deliverers to show in casual games?

Interesting, I hadn't even considered that yet, but is a couple of 3" warjack moves worth 4-6 points?

[SteakAndSpirits]

Interesting, I hadn't even considered that yet, but is a couple of 3" warjack moves worth 4-6 points?

Despite the excellent price point, one of the largest complaints that I've seen against the Crusader is that it's a SPD: 4 heavy without reach. Turning a couple Crusaders into SPD: 4 heavies with an extra 3" of movement seems that yes, it could be work 4-6 points. Not to mention the Deliverers combo nicely with Kreoss' KD effect, too.

-s&s

[Lanz]

Kreoss3's feat isn't bad, but it is more like a powerful spell than a feat. I'd say a bad feat is a feat that is useless or difficult to apply, and that's certainly not what Kreoss3's feat is. That said, Kreoss3's feat doesn't really provide much of a 'push' as far as feat's go. It won't turn the tables or decide who wins, it'll just give you a power bump on a turn you need it.

The feat is indeed Kreoss3's least impressive feature, but it's still a good feat. Its the extra focus he needs to do everything at once even if he's charging around and the psudo-purification effect is good to have too.

That said, I have eVayl, who has a very similar feat (and similar interaction due to having Purification on her spell list), and every time I've used it, it's been for the assassination, which Kreoss3's feat doesn't really enable as much (as he's only casting upkeeps for free, not attack spells). So it's not even as good as eVayl's feat in my opinion.

[Kenton]

I know the difference between a good feat and a bad feat. His feat is definitely bad :P

But his statlines amazing, his abilities are amazing, his spell list is good, and his focus is good. So I can live with his feat being bad.

Hes not the protectorate version of eHaley like I hoped hed be, but hes still better than most of our other warcasters. Overall, Kreoss3 is a solid addition to our lineup.

We must agree to differ. On a fully tooled assassination caster his feat is astonishingly useful. Not only does it strip your target of defenses but it allows you to sort out your buffs exactly where you want them for the kill.

Granted this will present activation order issues but it's still solid.

The only thing preventing Kreoss himself being an awesome assassination caster himself is his big base, it might get gummed up in there, but he provides his Vengers with all the tools for the job and Menoth has no shortage of other means to get the job done.

[Soulblighter]

I give Kreoss3's feat a 2 out of 5. Its bad but its not totally useless like Vyros' or Magnus' feats. Nemo3 basically gets half of Kreoss3's feat every turn for free with resourceful. A feat thats barely better than a passive ability is never going to score very high with me.

We must agree to differ.

He's great at assassination, ive never denied that, and his feat is fine for what he is. But comparatively speaking his feat is on the weak side. His feat won't swing games like other warcasters' feats will. That's just a fact.

Despite the excellent price point, one of the largest complaints that I've seen against the Crusader is that it's a SPD: 4 heavy without reach.

That was never an issue prior to MK2. Weve all just become so infatuated with the Reckoner that SPD5+Reach is what we expect on everything. We are spoiled bratty children.

[itchmonkey]

Crusader + 3" movement is nice. Reckoner + 3" movement is even better!!! *drool*

[Charming]

His feat is not a gamechanger as some others and not an assassination feat like eVayls but very worth pointing out is that Vayl doesn't have to spend focus to run warjacks. A very different context for the feat.

I think it's still a rather potent and highly versatile feat. Not up there with some others but I think it's better than pSevvys for example.

[Bollster]

It's a feat that can give up to 8 free focus in a turn, albeit for specific use, and it does throw up a few order of activation issues if you want to use it to drop Warpath to recast it for free. But you can at least get 4 free by swapping Ignite and (re)casting Holy Ward on a unit, 6 if you want to swap or cast Death Sentence. So 4-6 focus and essentially a free Purification that doesn't hate on your own upkeeps. Sure it isn't super good but it's always going to be useful and with all the extra focus things PoM can generate it really lets Kreoss get full mileage out of his spell list and battlegroup. I can't wait for him to hit the shelves and I'll happily play him sans Vengers until I can work up the dosh to get some.

[Zemmi]

The fact you can only field one of him.

[MetaphoricDragon]

Kr3oss does intrigue me, though being on a large base might also be considered a weakness. My main issue though, is I don't have a particular interest into sinking all that money into Vengers. I may wait around and see what sort of ideas come up for non-Venger Kr3oss lists.

[volt_ron]

The only bad thing I can see with him is that the model might not live up to the sheer head asploding awesomeness of his art. (Seriously, best art in the book.)

...although I have faith.

[FearLord]

I give Kreoss3's feat a 2 out of 5. Its bad but its not totally useless like Vyros' or Magnus' feats. Nemo3 basically gets half of Kreoss3's feat every turn for free with resourceful. A feat thats barely better than a passive ability is never going to score very high with me.

Nemo 3 doesn't have Resourceful. He gets to upkeep one spell for free when Finch is within 8" of him with Arcane Assist. At its best, Kreoss 3's feat lets you cast 8 focus worth of spells from his card (as well as a version of Purification which is effectively another 3 focus)... At worst you're getting about 7 focus free (if all of your spells were already out and you wanted them in the same places).

It means you need to position carefully for his spells, and an arc node or 2 is probably extremely sensible, but it isn't what I would call 'bad'...

[SnakeEyes]

My main issue though, is I don't have a particular interest into sinking all that money into Vengers. I may wait around and see what sort of ideas come up for non-Venger Kr3oss lists.

On more than one occasion, I've thought how happy I bought them years ago during Mk. I when they were much better. Now I don't have that purchase dilemma. I truly doubt they'd be a Mk. II buy for me.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Crusader + 3" movement is nice. Reckoner + 3" movement is even better!!! *drool*

Oh. Definitely.

-s&s

[Silverstar843]

My biggest problem is that everyone calls him Kreoss3 and not 3oss. COME ON! It was RIGHT there, people!

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

My biggest problem is that everyone calls him Kreoss3 and not 3oss. COME ON! It was RIGHT there, people!

Please don't. Just... please don't.

All of these "Cavalry Casters" are screaming "We need to sell our overstock of cavalry!" to me. He does look interesting, but not enough to make me wanna drop huge stacks of cash on buying all these menite models I dont currently own. But that's just me.

Then don't. Kreoss3 doesn't fix Vengers problem, which is survivability. They still get blow off the table by a lot of stuff. He makes them hit like a truck, which is cool, but not necessary.

Much like Thyra and daughters, he does cool things for vengers, but not enough to compel you to play them. I think his best builds will be without them.

[SteakAndSpirits]

...I was shocked to see Stinkmeaner's name at the top of this thread, describing something in the Protectorate as amazing!

Hehehe. And I tend to agree that he'll be a hoot to play! I especially like the fact that he doesn't have a game endingly broken feat, and instead is stacked more heavily towards solid turn-to-turn play. I think that opens up a higher fun factor for all parties involved.

And having played Epic Vayl in my alt Faction, I really appreciate the mechanic of recasting spells.

-s&s

[jandrese]

Then don't. Kreoss3 doesn't fix Vengers problem, which is survivability. They still get blow off the table by a lot of stuff. He makes them hit like a truck, which is cool, but not necessary.

Actually, I did have a problem with their damage output before. P+S 14 if undamaged is frankly disappointing from models that expensive. So he did half-fix them. It's a bit of a shame that his defensive spell is not the best for them though. Good old Defenders Ward would have been better because it stacks with Battle Driven to make them somewhat survivable. Maybe even Inviolable Resolve, but not so much since they're already fearless. Holy Ward is better in a scant few situations though (against casters with Rebuke, Fear of God, or Crippling Grasp mostly).

[Blackraine]

My biggest problem is that everyone calls him Kreoss3 and not 3oss. COME ON! It was RIGHT there, people!

If it makes you feel better, I call him 3oss...

[Soulblighter]

Actually, I did have a problem with their damage output before. P+S 14 if undamaged is frankly disappointing from models that expensive. So he did half-fix them.

Agreed. They're half-fixed. Now theyre glass cannons at least. Before they were just useless.

[Stinkmeaner]

I think his best builds will be without them.

I've been called "crazy" at my game store for saying the same thing.... I am toying with some lists now and am planning on proxying him soon, if I use vengers, I may use them in a min unit to play "clean-up" on some heavies with Ignite.... That may be worth 7 points. But I honestly think Warpath is going to make Protectorate shine... Blood can be engaged, get the warpath movement, and being immune to free strikes can get up to POW 22 with Ignite while charging something else deeper in the enemy line... Same thing with Fire, he has so many movement tricks people are going to have to be careful where they position and if you have a little bit of point removal, can clear lanes easily.... This guy is a straight up monster... And the ability to completely fuel a couple jacks, purify all the "bad guys" stuff off, and recast your own buffs is HUGE in one turn.

[darisus]

I can't wait to get him he reminds me of one of my other favorite casters, eSevy. I like tool box casters that can do alot of things turn to turn instead of wait for the best time to feat. Plus, warpath is going to be so sweet. I like the thought of force hammer just not to sure about how often i will apply it. I think i will run him with alot of AD high def troops to get them most out of holy ward, and fast jacks to keep up with him. Not even sure i will play vengers with him, just don't think i can pay the points for them for what they do. I can see a test 35pt list to be something like:

Kreoss 3 +5
Daughters 5
Idrains 10
+ua 3
Reckoner 8
Fire 9
Nicia 3
Choir 2

I prefer 50 pts but 35 works fine to test out concepts. I want to see about using daughters with deathsentence and idrians to trigger warpath. Later i will probaby test errants for things as well as sanctifiers. As well as having an arcnode in a list. Alot of concepts to test out before i find what works best for me with Kreoss3, including some vengers, even if i don't like them that much.

[Luthon]

Does his passive only effect vengers? I noticed in is theme list its protectorate cavalry not just vengers so maybe he will make our new cav unit insanely good? I figure since everyone else is getting a new cavalry unit that we would be getting one as well.

[Draznar]

His Passive Buff affects Exemplar Vengers, so maybe someday we will get another Exemplar Cav Solo who it will also work with?

[PG_Steampunk Jim]

Actually, I did have a problem with their damage output before. P+S 14 if undamaged is frankly disappointing from models that expensive. So he did half-fix them. It's a bit of a shame that his defensive spell is not the best for them though. Good old Defenders Ward would have been better because it stacks with Battle Driven to make them somewhat survivable. Maybe even Inviolable Resolve, but not so much since they're already fearless. Holy Ward is better in a scant few situations though (against casters with Rebuke, Fear of God, or Crippling Grasp mostly).

Fair enough. I'm used to Troll cav, who have the same pow on the charge, and I mostly use them to mop up infantry, and only send them against hard targets in certain situations and with certain casters. So from my point of view, the extra hitting power on the vengers is cool, but not filling a gap I felt they had.

I've been called "crazy" at my game store for saying the same thing.... I am toying with some lists now and am planning on proxying him soon, if I use vengers, I may use them in a min unit to play "clean-up" on some heavies with Ignite.... That may be worth 7 points. But I honestly think Warpath is going to make Protectorate shine... Blood can be engaged, get the warpath movement, and being immune to free strikes can get up to POW 22 with Ignite while charging something else deeper in the enemy line... Same thing with Fire, he has so many movement tricks people are going to have to be careful where they position and if you have a little bit of point removal, can clear lanes easily.... This guy is a straight up monster... And the ability to completely fuel a couple jacks, purify all the "bad guys" stuff off, and recast your own buffs is HUGE in one turn.

Here's what I feel are staples for Kreoss3 (from relatively little play experience, so take that as you will):

1) Temple Flameguard with Rhupert. With Holy Ward and Dirge of Mists they clock in at a stupendous defense 16, defense 18 against the charge. From my experience with Severius2, that turns them into one of the best tarpits in the game. And if needed, they can get ignite and hit at a very respectable pow 12

2) Fire of Salvation. Just too many possible movement shenanigans to pass him up, and dispell is handy.

3) Other jacks, obviously. Needs testing to see which ones, but Warpath is just too good not to focus on. So, what jacks? I think the sanctifier will be solid, so Kreoss doesn't have to juice him up as much. I also think that Force Hammer and Death Sentence are pretty ok, and I'd like to be able to have the option to arc them. So, Revenger? Guardian? Not sure. Repenters could also be insane. Move up, spray, move back with warpath. Or aim and move back. Or spray and then move up to jam. WHATEVER. I think at least one or two should make it in there.



As you can see, with the way I'm planning on running him, I just wouldn't have room for Vengers anyway

[Rinion]

My biggest problem is that everyone calls him Kreoss3 and not 3oss. COME ON! It was RIGHT there, people!

Well, i usually go with Kr3oss, at least!

[LordGrimlok]

I've been thinking. Can we get 2 Warpath movements in the same turn? Example: Warpath and ignite are upkept. , give x focus to reckoner and templar. Trigger warpath with VoJ/daughters/whatever, move Reckoner up. Assault reckoner and beat face. Kreoss feats, gets warpath up and ignite on templar. Templar charges and triggers warpath/beatback shenanigans. Profit?Since listening to the last muse on minis, I'm wondering if Kreoss can play an effective ranged game. Reckoner, Double Vanquishers, maybe even a redeemer for the battle group. Of course backed up by vassals. Add zealots, maybe even VoJ. If points allow, Gorman and/or A&H. Of choose the above module can replace the 2 vanquishers and redeemer with the Judicator, too. Man, I'm so exited for all the possibilities.

[PG_KestrelM1]

You may only advance once per turn as a result of Warpath.

Still, the amount of shenanigans you can pull with warjack positioning is extensive. I think iKreoss will be a huge fan of warjacks with guns.

[LordGrimlok]

Gotcha. I thoughtthat only applied to that particular warjack, and that a different jack can move if I recast it. Oh well.

[Bishop84]

I agree that his feat is his least appealing aspect, but it's really not that bad at all. It is overshadowed by many, but it is still a huge focus boon coupled with an enemy buff/debuff remover. I like it. IMHO a bad feat is one that is so situational to the point of useless in many matchups like Mohsar's.

[Soulblighter]

IMHO a bad feat is one that is so situational to the point of useless in many matchups like Mohsar's.

Kreoss3's feat is definitely better than mohsars, or vyros, or magnus, etc... those guys all have useless feats. Their feats get a 1 out of 5.

Kreoss3's feat is not useless, its just weak, so that makes it a 2 out of 5.

To be a 3 out of 5 it would have to be average strength for a feat... the High Reclaimer's feat is a good example of a feat thats a 3 out of 5.

Any feat that gets a 4 is pretty much one of the best feats in the game.

A feat has to be as good as Sorschas to get a 5, and there arnt that many of those.