No Love for EButcher?

[ninjacamel86]

Hey everyone in the Khador Kommunity!

My girlfriend and I are getting ready to play our first 50pt game and I need a little advice. I'm a Cryx/Cygnar player and my gf is Khador. She loves the faction and I have an eButcher on the way for her to play in the game.

Basically, my question to you is, Does anyone actually use eButcher? I've been checking the list discussion forums and it seems that everyone loves pButcher instead.

Her alternate casters for the game are pScorcha and pVlad.
I'll be playing Cryx in the game so any advice you could send my way for her would be great. She just likes to play and I truly try to build a competitive list for her to go against mine. Here is what she has:

Jacks:
Juggernaut
Beast 09
Destroyer
a magnetized heavy: destroyer, juggernaut, decimator (so any one of those)

Units:
10 winterguard with UA
4 Widowmakers

Solos:
Kovnik Joe
2 Manhunters
Yuri the Axe
WAR PUPPY!

I'll be running with at least 2 units at 10 each with my Cryx so relatively infantry heavy.
basically, this has turned more into a general list building advice post, but any assistance that could be passed on would be extremely appreciated! Thank you all!

[Tossy]

eButcher is awesome... very underrated in my opinion. He suffers from being an up front caster with random focus so keeping him alive is a pain in the butt. I am not going to say he is super competitive but I have seen him used in that sense and win a lot. I think eButcher dosen't get used a lot is because of fourm think mixed with pButcher just being fantastic at everything and pretty much everyone else doing it better to a degree because they can play back.

However with the models you have I would rather play pVlad, pbutcher or eSorscha. eSorscha being my favorite of these for the models you have. Beast rips through units. Winterguard with joe will take care of units too... widowmakers for arc nodes. She has the makings of a good anti-cryx list

[Marth]

It won't be too long before somebody will post up that your (the OP's) impression is wrong, that Butcher Xp is the best thing since sliced bread (and he slices bread very well) - and that the best way towards the ultimate Butcher Xp experience is playing him with nothing but Doom Reavers.

[Skylifter]

I'd actually play eButcher, but I effed up painting the model and have to redo it. I proxied him once, and that was lots of fun - and I won, too. With the models you've got, he may do okay-ish, but what eButcher really needs is some really quick close combat units or solos for him to put rage tokens on on the feat turn. Manhunters, Yuri and the Dog are what I'd use from your selection to do that. The tacticas on eButcher in this forum were very useful to me when I prepared for proxying him, too.

[m3g4tr0n]

I've played eButcher, and have had success with him. The only issue I've had has been fielding a list that doesn't need to rely on him for buffs, since his focus can be erratic in the early stages of a game.

[osloco]

Your girlfriend could definitely use a unit that is melee oriented with eButcher, whether that is Doomreavers (great against Cryx with UA ), Kayazy Assassins, Kayazy Eliminators, Iron Fang Pikemen and Iron Fang Uhlans. I can't remember if his feat works with Great Bears (Maybe I'm thinking of eVlad), if so they rock. You could also go the Merc+Valachev route. I am planning on using Boomhowler and Co plus Valachev as a screen for him. She has the skeleton of a good list for him: Beast 09, Widowmakers (for feat tokens), manhunters, Yuri and dog.

[rivenwyrm]

No love, just... HATE!!! Feel the RAGE!!!!

[MouseC]

I run eButcher as my 2nd list in most steam rollers. My first list is karchev. Firstly, you want Doomreavers and Fenris. I'm not saying it won't work without them, i'm just saying its ALOT more enjoyable and off the hook. 2ndly, I play a non tier eButcher list with x Doom Reavers. Why only 2? Whell its what I have an I run the Drakhun + Fenris. Why? Its stupid fast, their move + attack range is huge. Its easy on a feat turn where the Drakhun ran and stayed in control, to use feel the hate to shuffle into the backfield and get b2b with a warcaster, add into that Fenris doing the same thing. Its really fast, non tier, but very fast and deadly and fun. I also use Beserkers, to run for free to get them up further for the feel the hate. I should probably be using Kodiaks for the extra MAT, but not a model i own...

[Kuarnix]

You really want two kinds of models in your list - models that can reliably get you rage tokens, and models that are good to spend rage tokens on. For the first, we're talking about accurate models that don't have an issue doing damage (i.e. widowmakers) or killing lots of models at once (Greylords in larger games, Doom Reavers, Devastator, Mortar Crews, Beast-09, sometimes Kayazy & WGI with Joe). For the second, you usually want Weapon Masters (preferably solos! With Reach when possible!) with MAT 8+. This means the Drakhun, Fenris, manhunters, The Bears, etc. Jacks can be okay here too, depending on how you're using your feat. It's nice to have more than one in each category, so you have some backup - eButcher can't really protect his models. The classic trick is feating and running your weapon master, Fenris, Drakhun, whatever, around your opponent's models (or through the space where they were after you kill them), then giving it three rage tokens and advancing to attack the caster with some high power attacks. eButcher really lives and dies by his feat, IMO. The good news is that if eButcher doesn't sit well with her, she can always proxy him as pButcher.......

[Krazy_Ivan]

random question about eButcher since im thinking about picking him up. Say he charges into a pile of Errants... does there self sac ability stop a lot of his cool tricks from happening? like i know it shuts down berserk attacks from doomreavers (so freakin lame btw).

sorry in advance for thread hi-jacking btw.

[samytheth]

i play Ebutcher inside and outside of teir very well. i think he more effective outside of teir with widdowmakers and mortercrews to get the tokens and units like greatbears beast09 and doomreaver with ragetoken are just fun. his tier is just pure fun and very effective. i love him my fav kahdor caster next to old witch. he has a very steep learning curve and your first few games will not be fun but the more you will play you will learn were to place him were to charge in and you will love him. aslo yes he can cast bezzerk on himself and 360 thresher kill everything move and inch and bezzerk enjoy

[MathPasta]

EButcher is a wild card. He may rock, or he may fail. He is also dependent on killing stuff so there is that.

Great feat and amazing combat abilities. The only iffy part os the focus generation. If it was a bit more reliable (2D3+1 or 1D3+4) He would be more field-able.

But as he is he is fun.

[Kuarnix]

random question about eButcher since im thinking about picking him up. Say he charges into a pile of Errants... does there self sac ability stop a lot of his cool tricks from happening? like i know it shuts down berserk attacks from doomreavers (so freakin lame btw).

sorry in advance for thread hi-jacking btw.

He makes an attack against every model in his melee range, so it won't stop him from attacking all of them - and he does so simultaneously if I remember right. It'll stop Eliminator. I'm not sure if it'll stop him from moving 1", because I don't recall if that's contingent on him making a melee attack against enemy models, or destroying an enemy model with a melee attack. If it requires he destroys one, then it probably will stop him from moving. It will also stop Rage Drives dependent on him killing a model.

[Steelwater]

I love EButcher! Probably my favorite caster overall. I havent played for a long time but would love to field his theme army with all the Doom Reavers and Fenris. I may not win but I am going to tear everything over there apart!

[mcdermott]

I've only seen ebutcher used in his tier list fashion, its effective, it has some serious weaknesses but there are armies out there that rreeaaallly can't deal with wave after wave of doom reavers. I could see it as a 2nd or 3rd list in a tournament sense. seems like a perfectly happy thing to trot out against cryx, or adeptus rahn.

[mostholycerebus]

Id love to see a legitimate eButcher tactica, but they always devolve to "just take moar domreavers". Im not sure thats the end-all of eButcher use though. He seems like a legit caster when you make a few allowances, like just fielding Fearless units where he may wander, and not depending on Focus. Which is a vast departure from our other casters, a few of which are little more than a focus battery.

I think hes going to be my next caster after I get comfortable with eSorscha and her Stereotypical Khadoran Army of Doom. Unless i come across eIrusk cheap.

[The_Bionic_Labrat]

pfft.

eButcher. wardog. yuri. juggernaut. 9 squads of doom reavers. sorted.

[jdeckert]

EButcher is a wild card. He may rock, or he may fail. He is also dependent on killing stuff so there is that.

Great feat and amazing combat abilities. The only iffy part os the focus generation. If it was a bit more reliable (2D3+1 or 1D3+4) He would be more field-able.

But as he is he is fun.

The focus generation can definitely be a heart-breaker and requires a good deal of flexibility. That said, if you just get used to having to get by with 2 or 3 focus you won't have any problems. I don't think I've ever lost a game with him where the focus roll was truly crucial. I'm sure it happens, and I have had plenty of times where it would have been really nice to get a better roll, but you can make do with the minimum.

Id love to see a legitimate eButcher tactica, but they always devolve to "just take moar domreavers". Im not sure thats the end-all of eButcher use though. He seems like a legit caster when you make a few allowances, like just fielding Fearless units where he may wander, and not depending on Focus. Which is a vast departure from our other casters, a few of which are little more than a focus battery.

I wrote up a lengthy tactica recently, link in my sig. He's definitely viable outside of the tier. You don't necessarily need fearless units with him, since he has terror rather than abomination. He won't scare friendly models.

As for the OP: eButcher is both fun and competitive, though there's a bit of a learning curve with him especially compared to a lot of our other casters. Beast, widowmakers, Yuri and manhunters, and the dog are all very good choices for him. The WG are much better with his regular version. They're primarily a short-range unit and tarpit with a buff. But since he doesn't have Iron flesh they're not as great at tar-pitting and he'd rather have some long range shooting for generating tokens or melee prowess for using them. I'd look to kayazy (which are fantastic with pretty much anyone) or IFP (which are also-pretty self sufficient) instead for the main unit. Great Bears are a solid unit to pick up. A Man-O-War Drakuhn would also be a solid pickup, as he's always a beast and is a great assassin under eButcher's feat. As for the jacks you have, I don't particularly care for the destroyer or decimator with him. The juggernaut isn't bad as a second 'jack, since it's cheap and fairly easy to get mileage out of. You might consider a spriggan, since that thing is a blast with eButcher as well as many of the other Khador casters.

[Soda Breeze]

eButcher enjoys Nyss w/ Valachev. SPD 7 Pathfinder w/ Hunter guns that effectively stand still and shoot 15" with Zephyr can snag rage tokens on feat turn AND they eat jacks in melee w/ Fury on them. Valachev is really there for Zephyr + rage token access. If you don't need him, you can drop him for dog/Sylys.

I've done him with double-Spriggan and it works nice. MAT 8 Reach if Butcher kills something, MAT 10 on charge + Ravager and Bulldoze = supreme lane clearing potential for his rage token move. Stealth help doesn't hurt either. Flare-shot-boost hit = dead ARM 11/12 solos, and you don't even need Butcher w/ the Koldun Lord Power Boost.

Don't think he's competitive, though. His end game is lackluster. He can't hit DEF 18+ then camp like pButcher/Sorschas/Vlad1 and needs at least 4 focus to get himself into an infantry mob (Boundless Charge + Ravager = 12" threat w/ tons of follow-up) and wants more to camp on afterwards b/c that puts him way up. Yo-yo beast-heavy lists like eKaya, pMakeda and Kromac eat you alive b/c you don't get the rage tokens and can't reliably kill his beasts without them killing you first. He's fun as all hell, though, I love playing him.

[jdeckert]

eButcher enjoys Nyss w/ Valachev. SPD 7 Pathfinder w/ Hunter guns that effectively stand still and shoot 15" with Zephyr can snag rage tokens on feat turn AND they eat jacks in melee w/ Fury on them. Valachev is really there for Zephyr + rage token access. If you don't need him, you can drop him for dog/Sylys.

I haven't tried that yet. Doesn't sound bad at all, will definitely give it a go.

Don't think he's competitive, though. His end game is lackluster. He can't hit DEF 18+ then camp like pButcher/Sorschas/Vlad1 and needs at least 4 focus to get himself into an infantry mob (Boundless Charge + Ravager = 12" threat w/ tons of follow-up) and wants more to camp on afterwards b/c that puts him way up. Yo-yo beast-heavy lists like eKaya, pMakeda and Kromac eat you alive b/c you don't get the rage tokens and can't reliably kill his beasts without them killing you first. He's fun as all hell, though, I love playing him.

I have to respectfully disagree here. I've done really well with him in tournaments, and while I don't think he's a "power caster" necessarily I definitely think he's competitive. He doesn't need 4 focus to go crazy on infantry, just 2 (which he's guaranteed to get) for ravager. Boundless charge is great, and if you really need it you can do that and just rely on him killing everything within 2" of him and not getting berserk attacks after the fact. Even so you can do both 2/3rds of the time. He is fairly easy to kill, and that is his weakest point. I find that he doesn't really need to camp as often as other casters, though, because once you've sent him into the fray there is often not anything left to threaten him. Best defense is a good offense and all that. I've had him sitting on zero focus and knocked down on the enemy's half of the board and survived since he finished off a unit of fennblades and the feat let my army finish off most of his beasts.

Beast heavy lists definitely suck the life out of his feat, but I haven't had any trouble with them as matchups, particularly with his theme list. Beast heavy tends to struggle against infantry heavy, especially when that horde of doom reavers smashes beasts like nothing else.

[DemonCalibre]

His Tier list is a very powerful team roller Jam list.

He himself is kind of hit and miss the randomness in his focus is really his problem. I used to play him a ton, till I watched a few to many games go from blow outs to scrap bys, or from games I had in hand to a fiasco because Orsus was like nah 2 focus on the critical turn where you need three is acceptable.

For Tournaments inconsistancy is a death sentence, considering how you must not lose a single game to win the whole thing. Why bring such dangerous inconsistency to your army, if it loses you a single game through the day it Eliminates you.

If this were a CCG Tournament where matches were 2 out of 3, he would be totally fine, but saddly it isn't.