A play style question

[journeymanbob]

In my local WM group Hordes are all the rage. Every Hordes player in the area runs warbeast thats about it. the Legion player had a shepard, and Skorne use the whip beast contole guys, but thats like it.
My question is, is this the norm do all Horde players run there armies this way. I am starting to think PP should have given them trooper points VS warbeast points.

[EdgeKun]

While I can't speak for Skorne, I know that my personal Legion and Circle lists are extremely warbeast heavy. Circle because I tend to play eKaya (who loves to run lots of beasts) and Legion because, well, our warbeasts are incredible and our infantry not quite as much so. As for my buddy who plays Trollbloods (closest i have to anecdotal evidence here), he switches it up a lot between infantry heavy Borka or beast heavy Doomy.

It may be just a general interest with your local group, but keep in mind that Hordes needs a solid number of Warbeasts to do well. We need auxilary fury generation (for when you start taking out warbeasts), we'll need the different animii, and we'll need the damage transfer targets. What size games are you playing? I found that back when my buddies and I were playing 25 (and below), there simply wasn't enough points to fit the necessary amount of warbeasts and take any infantry as well. 35 points is where we started seeing infantry finally making it into our Hordes lists.

I've also heard it said that Warmachine's strength lies in its infantry, while Hordes strength typically lies in it's beasts. Seems true from my experiences thus far, but I will admit to possibly being mistaken due to lack of experience.

Overall, keep in mind that a warcaster with 0-1 jacks is going to be just fine. (Possibly even better with no jacks to use his delicious Focus!) A warlock with 0-1 beasts is most likely screwed.

[MadJack]

I think EdgeKun is right on the money. Hordes pretty much requires a solid group of warbeasts, whereas Warmachine can sometimes be more effective with only a single warjack than with a bunch of them. Having said that, I usually play 50pt games, and at that level I usually find that Hordes players bring a mix of warbeasts, solos, and units. Still generally fairly heavy on beasts, though.

[journeymanbob]

where I know beasts are nessisary for Warlocks it is just over whelming to se 2 worldbigones+special world guy and all the little ones coming at you casting spell after spell, or being rushed by just dumb amounts of 2pt legion monsters, seeing the Troll wall ext.
To answer your other question we are playing 35-50pt games. more often 35pts due to all the horde players being new or giving up on their WM armies to play the as they keep saying more powerful hordes armies.

[PG_Alviaran]

Heavier on beasts than Warmachine is on jacks? Generally. However, only certain casters/builds tend to eschew all kinds of infantry. They tend to still want support pieces. Forsaken, Shepherds, Beast Handlers, Shifting Stones, Krielstone, warlock attachments of all stripes, etc.

There are still many reasons to take infantry though. In many cases, warbeasts aren't terribly effective at clearing out infantry, making it very easy to jam them up. Also, they often want some kind of infantry that can jam for them as well, to keep their beasts safe. Though the list is very often about delivering beasts to their targets somehow to get the job done.

[EdgeKun]

If at 35 they're taking only beasts and maybe 1 or two solos to support, (to use the old meme) "they're doin it wrong". The Legion player should definitely be running more than 1 shepherd (as far as Legion non-beast models go), and while I (again) have minimal knowledge on Skorne, taking only beasts + 1 beast handler unit at that point limit also seems, well, not good!

In this case I think we can safely say it's your meta. It also sounds though like they're making some extremely unbalanced lists. (Not in terms of being cheesy, but that they're going to start running into hard counters if they keep this up) Personally I'd say add a little spice to the mix and bring some lists in the future that help showcase said hard counters and demonstrate why you'd want to bring balanced lists.

Also, man am I lolling at ditching their WM armies to play the "more powerful" hordes armies. If you click with Hordes more than WM, fair enough. (I know this is the case for me) But proclaiming that Hordes are more powerful than WM (stating it as fact, it sounds like. :P ) just makes one sound like a scrub.

[Deo85]

well what is really a hard counter to beast heavy lists? Is it taking amazing jam units like Reverent crew / Satyx Raiders / Kazay Assassins / WG Death stare?

[Fuchikoma]

I tend to play my hords (PIGS!!!) more beast heavy. I'll be getting some legion in the future and I'll be running PThags, EThags and Absolonia beast heavy lists.

[EdgeKun]

well what is really a hard counter to beast heavy lists? Is it taking amazing jam units like Reverent crew / Satyx Raiders / Kazay Assassins / WG Death stare?

As far as I've ever seen, it seems like heavy massed infantry (with lots of emphasis on high DEF) is a fairly hard counter to beast/jack spam. Sure beasts and jacks -can- trample, but it's honestly a lot of effort and trouble to line up (in my experience) just in hopes of taking out a few models. Meanwhile you're "wasting" a Fury per every warrior model you're trying to eliminate the old fashioned way. Some beasts have sprays, but with the exception of Typhon you have a whopping 1x per beast, not to mention generally terrible RAT scores on said spray.

With Circle, my experience is that with the exception of say Berserk (Wraithbane optional) on the Warpwolf Stalker (and a whopping one spray per turn on a 9 pt Pureblood), all of our infantry removal lies in our units and our solos. Legion seems much the same way with Striders / Raptors being much more efficient (damage per pt) at taking out lots of infantry than most of our beasts. (A well placed Scythean thresher could do the job, but he's the exception. Not the rule.)

Anyway, I digress. In my experience high def infantry is a pretty good counter to beasts. "Wasting" fury simply to boost for a chance to hit is always frustrating.

Also keep in mind I'm not saying that beast "heavy" lists are bad by any means ( I play eKaya for cryin' out loud! ), but the lists described by OP (all beasts with one or two support, period) are begging to be exploited.

[bouncymischa]

Also keep in mind I'm not saying that beast "heavy" lists are bad by any means ( I play eKaya for cryin' out loud! ), but the lists described by OP (all beasts with one or two support, period) are begging to be exploited.

I'm imagining the fun that could be had picking off his support (say, with MHSF+UA or Daughters or something) and watching his beasts frenzying. X3

[The_Bionic_Labrat]

well what is really a hard counter to beast heavy lists? Is it taking amazing jam units like Reverent crew / Satyx Raiders / Kazay Assassins / WG Death stare?

watch irusk+ feat turn, and battle lusted iron fang pikemen ruin any warpack's day! or the great bears.

how do you beast beast heavy lists? drag them down in an attrition based brawl. hordes beast-heavy armies as a general rule cant really do attrition very well. and the weaknesses of the fury system come into play very obviously, when their beasts start to go down - soon they find they've got nothing left to bring to the field.

[Ikazuyr]

I started playing Hordes a couple months ago (started as a Warmachine Cryx player) and at that time my FLGS started switching from 35 to 50 point games as the standard. I am finding that my play style for Skorne at 50 points calls for a single unit (usually nihilators), beasts, a min unit of beast handlers and solo support. Watching around the store, it appears that unless the caster calls for infantry (Xerxis, Zaal, Kallus, etc) Hordes runs very beast heavy. As pointed out earlier in the thread, generally the strength of Hordes is in the beasts and the strength of Warmachine is in the infantry.

That being said, last week I took a Zaal list with 3 beasts (krea, shaman, raider) and played against Kallus with 2 beasts (2x ravagore). Infantry spam ruled the day.

[journeymanbob]

let's say I play Cygnar cause in fact I do, what high DEF troops do you suggest????

[MadJack]

let's say I play Cygnar cause in fact I do, what high DEF troops do you suggest????

Hmm, Nyss Hunters?

[EdgeKun]

let's say I play Cygnar cause in fact I do, what high DEF troops do you suggest????

Swans, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Cygnar actually has any high DEF infantry (or DEF buffs for that matter). The closest you'll get to something tanky to attrition down their beasts would be Stormguard/Stormblades/Sword Knights with Arcane Shield on them. On the plus side, if you take pStryker (or someone else who has arcane shield in their spell list), I think you can have two copies of it going on the field at a time. (One from a Journeyman, one from your Warcaster)

The only concern is that beating 1hp high armor infantry isn't going to be a problem for most warbeasts, they'll just have to put out enough attacks. (As opposed to hitting 1hp high def infantry)

[tallted]

Trolls are known as the infantry faction for hordes, however the beasts are amazing as well. I usually only bring one heavy, and lots of infantry. I have a few lists that feature three heavies though.

All their hopes and dreams rest on a small number of models. Controlling them, limiting what they can do and just plain dropping them is the key. There are lots of options for this in most factions, pick a few of the best in your faction, and run rampant through their lists.

[MadJack]

Swans, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Cygnar actually has any high DEF infantry (or DEF buffs for that matter).

Actually, we have both, but not really in a form that you'd want to use for the purposes being discussed. We've got DEF 15 gun mages (not exactly the guys you want to use to jam up beasts), and we've got casters with Blur (which only helps raise DEF against shooting & magic attacks, so also not exactly ideal for these purposes).

[Dragon2439]

. As pointed out earlier in the thread, generally the strength of Hordes is in the beasts and the strength of Warmachine is in the infantry.

The reason for this is simple. Warlocks need beasts for both fury and spells. But they get weaker as the game progresses. So they bring lots of beasts. Warcasters have a limited amount of focus and can only hand out so much. Infantry require no focus, and can function completely independently of the warcaster they are with. Warcasters tend to get stronger as the game progresses, as less jacks means more focus on the caster, thus allowing for more armor or greater spell casting.

Warbeasts are able to be kept fully functioning until destroyed, a slight investment from the warlock alone can do this, but each faction also has support units able to fill this role. Warjacks require specialized units to be able to be kept fully functional. There are a few casters that can repair as well, but it requires more then simply spending 1-2 focus.


Sadly despite the fact that the Jacks brought me to warmachine, but infantry spam is better . Shame there is no undead in hordes (Gators dont count). I do not like trolls or circle as much as I love Cryx.

[Lighten]

let's say I play Cygnar cause in fact I do, what high DEF troops do you suggest????

If you play Cygnar and you're running up against all-beast armies, shooting them to death is a pretty viable option. A couple hunters, maybe a defender, Siege/Kara/Kraye/eCaine, some gun mages for thunderbolt, and whatever melee unit you want to block them in. Just attrition the beasts down.

[PeregrineP]

If you play Cygnar and you're running up against all-beast armies, shooting them to death is a pretty viable option. A couple hunters, maybe a defender, Siege/Kara/Kraye/eCaine, some gun mages for thunderbolt, and whatever melee unit you want to block them in. Just attrition the beasts down.

If you can pepper a 'lock with a ton of shots, it helps get around high ARM beasts if they transfer the damage, and they only have so many xfers.

[MadJack]

If you play Cygnar and you're running up against all-beast armies, shooting them to death is a pretty viable option. A couple hunters, maybe a defender, Siege/Kara/Kraye/eCaine, some gun mages for thunderbolt, and whatever melee unit you want to block them in. Just attrition the beasts down.

Actually, I usually find that Assaulting Stormblades is a better option - especially if you bring something to make their shots more accurate. A full unit can fairly reliably take out a couple of beasts in a single turn. POW 14 shots + P+S 15 charge attacks tend to slaughter even heavy beasts.

[Stuh42l]

Never forget that with only/mostly beasts, their caster's are going to be awefully exposed to those multiple fields of fire Cygnar likes to bring.

[doom_reaver]

Never forget that with only/mostly beasts, their caster's are going to be awefully exposed to those multiple fields of fire Cygnar likes to bring.

Very true sometimes it's best just to go for the kill shot than stand toe to toe.

It's also very funny for Cygnar players to Hire Taryn di la Rossivi and make the beast screening the warlock invisible. Then you don't even have to worry about weird angles and vectors just shoot the bugger make him invisible and the blow the crap out of the once well screened warlock.

[kolonelk]

I faced down a troll list last night with Mulg, a Mauler, Blizter and Bomber, with Gun Mages as my front line (backed up by Rhupert). Deadeye + Thunderbolt will help clear zones, and knock beasts over so it's easier for your 'jacks to hit them (not that Def 12 is much of an issue for Hunters in the first place).

[OTee]

@journeymanbob
Everything about the Hordes playstyle was allready said, I think this is somehow a issue of your group.
Maybe the newer players just copy playstyle of the older ones?

I'd just add further example for the opposite: Our Hordes palyers (Troll, Circle, Legion, Minions, rarely Scorne) run avg. 3 beasts+ from 25points up. And use all kinds of additional stuff. Bloodtracker units to get me (Cygnar) entangled fast, so I'm not able to focus on the beasts. Legion brings Swordsmen or Legionaires, Minions: Bog Trog, Gatorman, Brigands, Slaughterhousers... and all add in different solos to stack (de)buffs.

[PG_kingkris]

Actually, I usually find that Assaulting Stormblades is a better option - especially if you bring something to make their shots more accurate. A full unit can fairly reliably take out a couple of beasts in a single turn. POW 14 shots + P+S 15 charge attacks tend to slaughter even heavy beasts.

Especially with Threemo, an extra dice on all those shots really stings!

[Picklechu]

Very true sometimes it's best just to go for the kill shot than stand toe to toe.

It's also very funny for Cygnar players to Hire Taryn di la Rossivi and make the beast screening the warlock invisible. Then you don't even have to worry about weird angles and vectors just shoot the bugger make him invisible and the blow the crap out of the once well screened warlock.

taryn di la rovissi's shot is friendly faction only, so won't help Cygnar, iirc.

[journeymanbob]

I had not thought of the Warlock sniper thing. I have played Anouther game to long and forget that all I need is a good shot angle and wham game over. thank you

[J. Beatnik]

Just take siege/pStryker and a pair of chargers. Load them up with 3 focus apiece, drop (foxhole or earthquake) and pop their caster with 4 double boosts for the win.

Hopefully you're taking Journeyman for the extra three focus.