Starting Mercs with Damiano and Fiona

[Roadhouse]

I've been playing Legion since the MK2 Field Test and am looking to broaden my horizons. I'm looking to start with Damiano at 35, get Fiona to 35, finish Damiano at 50, then do the same for Fiona.

Here are the 2 Damiano lists. In theoryland I like what I've got and have a pretty good idea of how both will play.

Captain Damiano (*6pts)
* Mangler (8pts)
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
* Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer (2pts)
* * Mule (8pts)
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Steelhead Riflemen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (9pts)

and

Captain Damiano (*6pts)
* Mangler (8pts)
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
* Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer (2pts)
* * Mule (8pts)
Greygore Boomhowler & Co. (Boomhowler and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
Lady Aiyana & Master Holt (4pts)
Steelhead Riflemen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (9pts)
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord (2pts)

I've only figured out the 50 for Fiona, and am having difficulty deciding what to drop for 35.

Fiona the Black (*6pts)
* Mariner (8pts)
* Rocinante (9pts)
* Sylys Wyshnalyrr, the Seeker (2pts)
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (Cylena and 9 Grunts) (10pts)
Kayazy Assassins (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Kayazy Assassin Underboss (2pts)
Sea Dog Crew (Leader and 9 Grunts) (8pts)
* Mr. Walls Sea Dog Crew Quartermaster (2pts)
Sea Dog Deck Gun (2pts)
Eiryss, Angel of Retribution (3pts)
Lord Rockbottom (2pts)

I know there are quite a few experienced Merc players on these boards as I've been lurking for a while. I'm looking for your input. Are these lists alright or just theory garbage? Do I have most bases covered or are there matchups that will dream crush me in 2 list SR? Are there any tweaks that will take either list from mediocre to WTFBBQ? Thanks in advance for any criticism/advice.

[Robert Shepherd]

I endorse your Fiona list, but I would drop the Sea Dogs. You want to either go big or go home with those guys; just taking the sea dog unit and a single support solo isn't going to be as effective.

[Roadhouse]

Having considered your suggestion, I think I'm going to drop A&H from Daminao and replace them with Gorman and Saxon, drop the Seadogs and Rockbottom from Fiona and replace them with A&H, Dougal, and 2xElimantors -or- WE&SJ+Bull Snapper.

You endorsed Fiona but said nothing of Dami, I'd like to hear your thoughts (was hoping you'd respond, I greatly enjoy your MoM articles/F&F posts concerning Mercs) .

[Robert Shepherd]

Well, take my comments about damiano with a grain of salt, because I'm not as experienced with him (he's on my list of casters to get more play with, though), but;

- Gun Mages + Mule + Deadeye is a very expensive module that doesn't give you any real melee hitting power or resiliency. The critical devastation is a powerful effect, but even if you were going to take the Gun Mages already (who are admittedly pretty damn good), I don't know if it's worth the cost of the mule.
- At smaller levels of play in particular the biggest advantage to playing mercenaries is our cheap but effective models, like Nomads, Alexia and Risen, and Steelhead Halberdiers. Take that for what you will; it's not the compulsory playstyle but I would recommend those unit types as a basis for lists for players new to the faction, with more elite units added only once you've got a solid base of expendable, capable, cheap models.
- Steelhead Riflemen are cheaper per model if you take minimum units.
- Dougal MacNaile is a very powerful support solo for any list that has any guns and at least one AOE. In paticular I find Steelhead Rifles really benefit from him; even if it's only one turn, that jump from RNG10 to RNG12 is a big deal. Also, if you take Dougal, probably take Gorman as well, because Gorman is amazing, and artillerist + double powder ration + black oil is even more amazing.

[MagnustheJust]

Having considered your suggestion, I think I'm going to drop A&H from Daminao and replace them with Gorman and Saxon, drop the Seadogs and Rockbottom from Fiona and replace them with A&H, Dougal, and 2xElimantors -or- WE&SJ+Bull Snapper.

You would have to drop the Gum Mages if you wanted to add in Saxon Orrik as well as wrong Eye & Snackjaw... They do not work in Highborne lists, and the Gun Mages cannot be taken in Four-Star contract lists.

As for your Fiona list, I would also recommend dropping the deck gun. It's limited mobility ties Fiona down, and she likes and needs to be able to hoof it in both my opinion and experiences. Also, that 8th focus was not really needed in my experiences as well.

I agree with RobertShepard as well on dropping the Sea Dogs as well... Rockbottom staying in there is fine for two reasons ;

- Bought Loyalty works on all friendly Mercenaries.
- RAT 6 and an 8" spray that causes continuous fire is both unsuspected & hilarious!!

[MagnustheJust]

As for your Damiano lists, I really think you need more Steelheads in there than just the Riflemen... But that is just me. *shrug*

I have personally never been fond of putting very nearly half my list invested in one 7-man unit marshaling a warjack...

[moddball]

Greygores work well with Fiona.

[Heavygear]

As for your Damiano lists, I really think you need more Steelheads in there than just the Riflemen... But that is just me. *shrug*

I have personally never been fond of putting very nearly half my list invested in one 7-man unit marshaling a warjack...

What you get for nearly "half your points".

a unit with a natural RAT 2 points higher than steelhead rifles.

a unit with range 4 inches further than steelhead rifles.

the ability to move models d3 inches around the board with a KO on a crit.

All for one point more than the comparable steelhead rifle unit.

A solo that gives the previous unit the ability to ignore STEALTH, concealment and cover. FYI if your facing Cryxx or Circle or Minions, Khador, the Protectorate,the Retribuiton this comes in pretty handy.

You also get to shoot into combat without penalty.

A solo who has more synergy with the Mule than most Warcasters have. Is quite survivable when parked in the backfield behind a large based Mule. If you are still terrified of losing him put a Vanguard on him. GASP!!!!!!!!!!! I know another 5 points but Snipe + Towershield = win

Your precious Wrongeye + "Snackjaw" + Bull Snapper cost 12 points

Gunmage Officer + Mule = 10 points.
All this cost you 0 focus and 0 coins if you are playing Damiano.

[Roadhouse]

@RobShep I hear you on the ATGM+UA+Mule being expensive, but the module is one of the things that drew me to Mercs so I'll likely try it and replace the Mule with a Mangler for more Warpath threat if I don't like it. Damiano tier is where I'm headed once I've got these 2 lists finished, so I'll be getting the Halbs then. 10 for 12> 9 for 10 but having them as a single unit means only 1 coin to Money Shot/Reform all of them, possibility of mega CRA, and its how the points fell XD.

You would have to drop the Gum Mages if you wanted to add in Saxon Orrik as well as wrong Eye & Snackjaw... They do not work in Highborne lists, and the Gun Mages cannot be taken in Four-Star contract lists.

I think you may have misread my post. The Gun Mages are with Damiano (Highborn) and WE+SJ are being considered with Fiona (4*), thank you, however, for pointing out that Saxon doesn't work with Highborn, I thought he did :P. When it comes to the Cannon I see it like this: Cygnar pays 2pts for extended CTRL and an extra FOC 3 times, I'll pay 2 for an extra FOC every turn and a gun when the opportunity presents. It also means I'll be able to upkeep 3 spells, recast Nonokorion, and give both jacks 2. Running 8 is really slow though, especially considering Fiona's speed.

[Ricky Racoon]

@RobShep I hear you on the ATGM+UA+Mule being expensive, but the module is one of the things that drew me to Mercs so I'll likely try it and replace the Mule with a Mangler for more Warpath threat if I don't like it. Damiano tier is where I'm headed once I've got these 2 lists finished, so I'll be getting the Halbs then. 10 for 12> 9 for 10 but having them as a single unit means only 1 coin to Money Shot/Reform all of them, possibility of mega CRA, and its how the points fell XD.



I think you may have misread my post. The Gun Mages are with Damiano (Highborn) and WE+SJ are being considered with Fiona (4*), thank you, however, for pointing out that Saxon doesn't work with Highborn, I thought he did :P. When it comes to the Cannon I see it like this: Cygnar pays 2pts for extended CTRL and an extra FOC 3 times, I'll pay 2 for an extra FOC every turn and a gun when the opportunity presents. It also means I'll be able to upkeep 3 spells, recast Nonokorion, and give both jacks 2. Running 8 is really slow though, especially considering Fiona's speed.

Honestly, I'm not sure why you use Fiona in four-star. She synergizes best with the long gunners, in my opinion: long gunners able to ignore models and with magical attacks are terrifying to your enemies, and against high armor, you can make good use of Affliction to plink a model to death. Boomhowler's boys are also good: Roths Mercy makes these guys just annoyingly difficult to handle, and means they can lock enemy models in place, while providing a good bodyguard to prevent Fiona from being trampled.

I'd also consider Thor and Gunners/Blasters, and make one of the bunnies(I generally do the blaster, since it won't shoot as often) the telgash mark arc-node. Why? DEF 12, ARM 18 are solid defensive stats, and with Thor's Pronto Drive, you have a potential 15" movement to position the arc-node where you want it. A blaster has great synergy between Affliction and Tune-up(3d6 RAT 5 spray against a unit that it will auto-point? Bye-bye winterguard!), and pronto can either allow Aim, or let you get better positioning or threat. Also, roughly the same cost as WE and SJ, but much easier to keep the components alive. WE is great, but I'd save him for larger points games.

The gun, well, it's a give or take for me, but if you want to bring it, go ahead. I'd rather have Wishnailer for the free upkeep(just as good, imho, as the +1 Focus), Arcane Secrets, and the +2 range ability can be useful if you don't need to channel. I only consider the cannon when I'm 2 points over and already have all the good solos. Taryn is a great combo with Fiona, because she can give you 2-4 damage per shot vs. 'jacks, or shadowfire targets so you don't need nonokrion.

I generally only run a Vanguard with Fionna, but I could definitely see the case for Rocinante. I would just NOT take the Mariner(what do you have that makes a good loader for it? ), and let Rocinante do his thing with the shooting.

I am thinking of running something like: Fion, Rocinante, Wishnailer, Thor /w Gunner, Gorman, Dougal, Taryn, Boomhowler's boys, Long Gunners. You could swap long gunners for Highshields, but I feel the high shields really beg for the UA to make up i nfirepower, and they are much shorter threat, and not as accurate. If you go high shields, I'd consider dropping Boomie's boys, as they overlap in the "protect fionna's LOS" department. That would give you 6 points if you also get the high shield UA(which is, imho, a must), and I'm not really sure what to spend those on. A deck gun leaves you with 4, which could be Aiyaana and Holt(not as good in this list, imho), or Eirys + Gobber, or Maddie Corbeau + Anastasia, or whatever.

Fionna is Focus hungry: 8 Focus with a free upkeep may seem like a lot, but she could easily be upkeeping atleast two, if not three spells a turn, and you want to make good use of Affliction, Influence and Soulfire. She doesn't have a lot of Focus to be handing out to 'jacks, and Rocinante can do pretty good between Dougal's Artillerist and 1 focus to boost the damage on a direct hit, and he's a decent beatstick in melee. And keep in mind she's pretty badly effected by enemy magic denial. Magic is her bag, and if you remove it from the battlefield, then she's kinda weak.

[Robert Shepherd]

Honestly, I'm not sure why you use Fiona in four-star. She synergizes best with the long gunners, in my opinion: long gunners able to ignore models and with magical attacks are terrifying to your enemies, and against high armor, you can make good use of Affliction to plink a model to death.

I disagree. Longgunners are playable with her, but I've found her strongest style to be in 4* with self-sufficient, high-DEF models like Kayazy and Eliminators. Dark Omen is strongest on models like these - and Kayazy & Eliminators that can be delivered to the enemy are Kayazy & Eliminators that win you the game. It also doesn't hurt that Telgesh Mark Eliminators are the best arc nodes in the game. And Roth's Mercy on Kayazy is just as frustrating for the opposition as it is on Boomhowlers.

Plus, access to Wrong Eye means that if you want to run melee warjacks, you can actually stack their ARM high enough to survive powerful alpha strikes without the risk of lost systems. I wouldn't necessarily advocate that as the optimal style of play, but it is at least worth considering. Fiona has a weird predilection for attrition plays; she has the resources to keep heat on an enemy warcaster over multiple turns, and assassination by applying sustained damage over the course of several turns (via nonokorion ranged attacks, soulfire form acrobatic arc nodes, and acrobatic models coming in for the kill themselves) is not an uncommon way for her to close out a game.

If I'm not running a big melee attrition battlegroup (which is just something I've been experimenting with lately), my preferred warjack for her in a 4* list is just Rocinante. He makes a good Nonokorion target (or, put it on Eiryss, then swap it to him once she's plinked the enemy 'caster) and is generally versatile and capable. Plus, for turns when Fiona wants to spell-sling, he can get by just fine on only one or two FOC.

[MagnustheJust]

@ Heavygear :

I don't use a Bull Snapper with Wrong Eye either, not even when I play my Gators. *shrug*

@ Roadhouse :

Yeah... It was a misread on my part. You would think after 5 years on the forums, that I would have learned by now to allow myself time for my brain to get into first gear before posting, but alas no...

[Ricky Racoon]

I disagree. Longgunners are playable with her, but I've found her strongest style to be in 4* with self-sufficient, high-DEF models like Kayazy and Eliminators. Dark Omen is strongest on models like these - and Kayazy & Eliminators that can be delivered to the enemy are Kayazy & Eliminators that win you the game. It also doesn't hurt that Telgesh Mark Eliminators are the best arc nodes in the game. And Roth's Mercy on Kayazy is just as frustrating for the opposition as it is on Boomhowlers.

Plus, access to Wrong Eye means that if you want to run melee warjacks, you can actually stack their ARM high enough to survive powerful alpha strikes without the risk of lost systems. I wouldn't necessarily advocate that as the optimal style of play, but it is at least worth considering. Fiona has a weird predilection for attrition plays; she has the resources to keep heat on an enemy warcaster over multiple turns, and assassination by applying sustained damage over the course of several turns (via nonokorion ranged attacks, soulfire form acrobatic arc nodes, and acrobatic models coming in for the kill themselves) is not an uncommon way for her to close out a game.

If I'm not running a big melee attrition battlegroup (which is just something I've been experimenting with lately), my preferred warjack for her in a 4* list is just Rocinante. He makes a good Nonokorion target (or, put it on Eiryss, then swap it to him once she's plinked the enemy 'caster) and is generally versatile and capable. Plus, for turns when Fiona wants to spell-sling, he can get by just fine on only one or two FOC.

I forgot all about the eliminators, honestly. I just feel like Affliction is an extremely powerful part of Fiona's toolbox, and focusing on Melee Jacks and Kayazy doesn't really benefit from them. But the Kayazy are nice. I may have to pick up some eliminators, I had forgotten all about them as a unit.

[MagnustheJust]

I forgot all about the eliminators, honestly. I just feel like Affliction is an extremely powerful part of Fiona's toolbox, and focusing on Melee Jacks and Kayazy doesn't really benefit from them. But the Kayazy are nice. I may have to pick up some eliminators, I had forgotten all about them as a unit.

How...

[Ricky Racoon]

How...

Been busy with real life, dealing with a promotion at work my mother being hospitalized in intensive car for the last 9 months, moving into a new apartment, having(and losing) a girlfriend, etc.

[MagnustheJust]

Very sorry to hear all that happening man. My reply was intended as humor. If you were offended at all, I most humbly apologize.

[Roadhouse]

Words

Before Rocinante, the Mariner was the Jack to run with Fiona. She loads his gun, he prevents her from being KD'd. The list isn't built to take advantage of Affliction at all, but abuses Nonokorion Brand heavily. RobShep put my intent into words: attrition while putting constant heavy pressure on the opposing caster/lock. 2 fully boosted pow 14 guns that ignore intervening models hurt most things, throw in eEiryss to strip camped focus/buffs and there are quite a few casters that it can outright end. Magic denial won't ruin my day in the least either as I'm not focusing on Affliction or Soulfire. Kromac catches me in Bestial? Cool, upkeep, let Nono target 1 activate and shoot him, back up and recast, Nono target 2 does the same.

[Ricky Racoon]

Very sorry to hear all that happening man. My reply was intended as humor. If you were offended at all, I most humbly apologize.

Magnus, if I got offended at the thigns you say, I'd never have time to do anything! you're fine man.

[Ricky Racoon]

Before Rocinante, the Mariner was the Jack to run with Fiona. She loads his gun, he prevents her from being KD'd. The list isn't built to take advantage of Affliction at all, but abuses Nonokorion Brand heavily. RobShep put my intent into words: attrition while putting constant heavy pressure on the opposing caster/lock. 2 fully boosted pow 14 guns that ignore intervening models hurt most things, throw in eEiryss to strip camped focus/buffs and there are quite a few casters that it can outright end. Magic denial won't ruin my day in the least either as I'm not focusing on Affliction or Soulfire. Kromac catches me in Bestial? Cool, upkeep, let Nono target 1 activate and shoot him, back up and recast, Nono target 2 does the same.

I was never a fan of the B2B Mariner deal. You're putting a DEF 16, ARM 15 caster in B2b(hence blast damage) of a DEF 12, ARM 17 'jack? Anything powerful enough to use blast to hurt Fiona is going to blow your jack out of the water. Always seemed like too big of a risk for me. And then again, I'd rather have two RAT 8, POW 12s that are boosted for free, and four RAT 10, POW 15s that arn't boosted. And it saves focus. And points: Two Mariners are 12 points, long gunners are 10. It costs 1 focus to upkeep Nono on the Long Gunners, but takes 3 to cycle it between two mariners and 2 more to boost attack rolls, which is the only way you're going to really hit the same DEF, or you have to boost damage. The blast damage is, ok, but... meh, not really sold on Mariners.

Rocinante? He's gold in fiona lists: immune to KD and not being hit by blast damage direct hits? And he's a beatstick in melee, rather than a melee gimp? And he's better armored? And he's only 1 point? And he's got a Magical Sword? And Defensive strike? And no loader? Yeah, he's pretty dang good.

But the Mariners sunk to the bottom in my Fiona lists a long time ago: Long gunners + Nyss are a much better nono assasination kill. High Shields are pretty good at it two(you have less range, but much more durability, and again, focus efficient).

Not saying my way is the best way, but it's what I prefer for Fiona. I'd rather my Assassination/attrition not cost me 5+ focus a turn to pull off. I'm very happy with a 3 focus assasination/attrition that can get me 8 RAT 13, POW 15s, rather than two RAT5 or 6, POW 14s that are boosted. Much more redudancy, and still cheaper via focus(you'd need 7 to really get the same accuracy/damage). Just not sold on it. Heck, I'd take OAC for Nonokrion brand over the Mariners: a RAT 10, POW 17 is just awesome(and pretty much as good as a RAT 5 or 6 all boosted POW 14).

And by spending 10 points on the Longgunners, as compared to the 12 on the Mariners, I can afford taryn, or Gorman, or half of Aiyana and holt. And don't depreciate the value of 20 RAT 7 POW 12s. now THAT is an assassination attempt. Even 10 RAT 5 pow 12s, with a 20" threat is awesome. And costs 1 focus, which means I can chuck 3 soulfires OR camp my focus and survive longer.

[Robert Shepherd]

Rocinante? He's gold in fiona lists: immune to KD and not being hit by blast damage direct hits? And he's a beatstick in melee, rather than a melee gimp? And he's better armored? And he's only 1 point? And he's got a Magical Sword? And Defensive strike? And no loader? Yeah, he's pretty dang good.

Not sure where you're getting 'immune to KD' from. Or 'Magical sword'.

Otherwise yeah, I would take Rocinante over a Mariner if it was an either/or choice in any list. But I can also say that every single time I have ever seen Fiona killed through her feat was because her opponent engineered a knockdown. Stacking Lash on top of Guard Dog is not necessarily a poor investment. Although of course you can just take Grogspar to address this if you're so inclined.

[Ricky Racoon]

Not sure where you're getting 'immune to KD' from. Or 'Magical sword'.

Otherwise yeah, I would take Rocinante over a Mariner if it was an either/or choice in any list. But I can also say that every single time I have ever seen Fiona killed through her feat was because her opponent engineered a knockdown. Stacking Lash on top of Guard Dog is not necessarily a poor investment. Although of course you can just take Grogspar to address this if you're so inclined.

I tink it's from my one Proxy game with him where I used rocinante with Surefoot, and I'm confused about what abilities were fro mthe spell and the jack.

[Ricky Racoon]

Not sure where you're getting 'immune to KD' from. Or 'Magical sword'.

Otherwise yeah, I would take Rocinante over a Mariner if it was an either/or choice in any list. But I can also say that every single time I have ever seen Fiona killed through her feat was because her opponent engineered a knockdown. Stacking Lash on top of Guard Dog is not necessarily a poor investment. Although of course you can just take Grogspar to address this if you're so inclined.

I tink it's from my one Proxy game with him where I used rocinante with Surefoot, and I'm confused about what abilities were fro mthe spell and the jack.

[MagnustheJust]

Surefoot comes from Damiano.

Rocky has Guarddog... hehehehehe!!! This one STILL irks a few of the local mpce's in my area!!