pFeora for smallest formates

[Arractur]

Fact - pFeora is nonexistent on our meta. The common tool of menoth on formates of 15-25 is Reznic and pKreos, also eFeora.
I play eSeverius and he showed himself pretty nice on small points toumaments(I really could won at very least 2nd place on my first TM if I had better understanding of overall game mechanics and damn measuring), but I want to try a caster of a "beatstick" type. Reznik is an obvious choice, and I really going to play him later(too sweet model to miss it). But how about pFeora? Is she viable?
As long as I understand, she will need no more than a single jack with good speed and focus economy(Fire of Salvation? I have one) and some good hitting troops for Ignite, also hierofand or wracks(got the latter). Or her lack of sinergy with the army will make her too weak since we have not enough points to cover it all?

Thank you!

[origarmi chicken]

I use pFeora quite alot, she's good against infantry armies as she can just run up and feat, relax and watch them all die in their turn.
She's very good in combat as well, as long as she kills what she attacked. Cast engine of destruction and watch her as she rampages around the board. I killed two light warjacks in 1 turn with feora.
Make sure you have flame guard, they become fearless in her cntrl range, that's quite fun "my warlock just used all of his fury to kill your cleansers, now they will run away"
" they're fearless, now you're on fire"

[Bollster]

Paradox wrote this article on Feora1 compared to Sevvy1 as a tournament caster: http://museonminis.com/menite-dark-horses-2012-part-2/

I think that should give you something to go off. I have no experience with Feora1 myself, she's sort of permanently been 2 or 3 on my list of casters to buy next, constantly being displaced by the ones below her.

[paradox]

1. The comp to Sevy1 is at least a little tongue in cheek. Its mainly to say she can be a spell-slinger.
2. Her "main" mode is camp, feat, get in EoD range.

[paradox]

Phone doublepost

But yes, the prolifertation of spellcasting units has really uped the stock in hex hammer.

[Errant_knight]

I have started using her recently and love every minute of it. Great against armies that love magic or animi with hex hammer.

[darisus]

In small format games she is great because she brings her own troop removal so you can bring things like heavies or power solos. Between her feat and 2 sprays she really doesn't need any more anti-infantry, just a few good heavy hitters and a cheap screen and you should be golden. Tfg or daughters are nice with her, and at low points i actually prefer the TFG with ua over daughters (altough i do love me some daughters).

[paradox]

Her feat is actually her LEAST reliable troop-removal, but it's a wide net because she is base 15/17, so she can feat from a mid-forward position.
2xSP is nice but a little dicey at RAT5, so it depends on what you are shooting. Nailing a 'caster with 2x double-boosted + autofire is great fun.
Wall of Fire and Blazing Effigy are her herding/removal abilities. I always like a couple 'jacks with her for that reason.

Put them all together and she can attrition like hell vs single-wounds.
She can also melee hard herself, and has Ignite, so she can hard-target remove and help her arny do it too.

She's very toolboxy. You just have to know what mode you want to be in. I prefer to play support and use Hex Hammer/feat/SP/Wall/BE/Ignite from a mid-field position. I use the wall to exclude access to models/areas. I use my 'jacks to nail heavy stuff + BE chaff, or run and BE chaff. SPs are used as spot removal. If there's a spell-casting unit, or a 'caster has to get close to 'cast (Hordes, though less now because they are getting nodes) I will upkeep HH. I tend to feat early. I'm not terribly worried about catching the 'caster, but I will if I can. I can always catch them later with a booted SP.

Then i just look for EoD lanes. They don't always happen, but playing troop-attrition tends to force the game to hiding from Feora. Corbeau is awesome for this reason, as you get EoD, but get a Feora2-like move in maintenance.

I also VERY frequently use EoD as a pure move buff. You can advance and feat at a 20" threat (SPD6+EoD+CTRL) and EoD walk/SP at distances many folks find suprising, because many players do not consider EoD as a walk buffer.

Using her purely as a melee missle gets dicey because she has to get upfield quick and rely heavily on the feat while camping. It detracts from her many other options and exposes her to large threats. I've found much greater success supporting early troop-removal and mid-late game heavy hitting, while forcing them back with EoD threat ranges and a mid-field position pressing forward.

[Arractur]

Oh sweet Je... pardon, Menoth, Paradox that was some response. Thank you! You gave me hell's load of things to think about. All I can say after reading your post... who the hell said that pFeora has no synergies with our army???

[Craaag]

I like her alot. Like you said I think she doesn't get alot of playtime in many metas and catches alot of opponents by surprise as she really is quite an effective Warcaster. I really like how you can make army composition with her. On her own she is capable of removing all (or alot of anyways) the flak models allowing you to use hard hitting models to deal with hard targets.

Like Paradox says she has alot of tools for many situations but you have to know when to use them and you can only use 1 or two of them on any given turn. I find she like The Avatar alot as she is a Focus hungry (starved) Warcaster. Wracks help too.

I used to play her almost exclusively and I tell you she brings a whole lot of heat to the table. I've had tons of success with her. She good for almost everything except maybe mangled metal. i've never lost a game against Hordes with her. Hordes models seem to hate burning more than others it seems.

[Snipafist]

Oh sweet Je... pardon, Menoth, Paradox that was some response. Thank you! You gave me hell's load of things to think about. All I can say after reading your post... who the hell said that pFeora has no synergies with our army???

I don't think anybody really claimed she had no synergies. Her main issues are that beyond Ignite (which is swell) she doesn't do a lot for infantry, and she wants to be casting spells and/or camping focus and/or meleeing foes. Therefore, you run into some problems with her if you're not careful. Allow me to explain:

• Because she doesn't help infantry other than the melee damage bonus from Ignite and making Flameguard fearless, you can't count on fielding infantry that need a bit of a speed boost or defense boost to be really good.
• Because she can handle a good number of enemy one-wound infantry by herself due to her feat, infantry that are good vs other infantry are generally not quite as helpful with her. You'll still want some, of course, but it can only really go so far.
• Because she wants all the focus for herself (casting/camping/spending while meleeing things with EoD or on boostable sprays), she can't support many jacks at all although she wants at least two or so in order to get some use out of the situationally amazing Blazing Effigy. This can cause problems versus enemy heavies, because she can't really do much for anti-heavy solos and infantry (no speed bonuses, mainly, so it's second wave counter-chargers or nothing) and she can't afford to feed our standard melee heavy jacks very well.

Thus your "default" pFeora list treats her as a super solo with a little infantry support and tries to squeeze in as much low/no focus anti-heavy as possible. Many people find this playstyle inferior to eFeora, who can manage several heavies and prefers lists that crank out enough fire to still handle infantry. I think Paradox's article adds a good amount of depth to pFeora and I think she's got potential. It's essential to try to let pFeora keep as much of her focus as possible, and I'll be interested in seeing how well she can get by with a Sanctifier or two and the Avatar.

[Soulblighter]

I've never really cared much for pFeora or Reznik. Their ARM and wounds are both so low, especially on Reznik, hes got the worst defensive stats of any medium based caster. I guess I just don't see the appeal of using a glass cannon melee warcaster... especially when the Devout doesnt even work like it should.

That said I think theyre most useful in small point games. Because the less points the opponent has the hard theyre going to be to assassinate. In larger point games it tends to be fairly easy to kill Feora or Reznik.

[Snipafist]

I've never really cared much for pFeora or Reznik. Their ARM and wounds are both so low, especially on Reznik, hes got the worst defensive stats of any medium based caster. I guess I just don't see the appeal of using a glass cannon melee warcaster... especially when the Devout doesnt even work like it should.

That said I think theyre most useful in small point games. Because the less points the opponent has the hard theyre going to be to assassinate. In larger point games it tends to be fairly easy to kill Feora or Reznik.

I don't think it's wise to think of Reznik or pFeora as melee warcasters, honestly. Some factions can pull off the sneaky assassination casters, but we don't have the kind of threat range/speed-enabling shenanigans to really go nuts with our casters personally. I prefer to think of Reznik as a jack buddy who can mess things up if they get close enough and you can cut off counter-chargers and Feora as a spell slinger who can switch over into melee mode when the situation calls for it. If you do try running them as melee casters, they will die. That makes me pretty sad with Reznik as his mini is pretty imposing until you see him spending all day cowering behind his heavy Exemplar buddies.

[Soulblighter]

I don't think it's wise to think of Reznik or pFeora as melee warcasters, honestly.

Of course theyre melee warcasters. The only thing they do better than other Protectorate warcasters is melee... If we want a "jack buddy" or a "spell slinger" weve got other warcasters that are way better at both those things, like Amon or Severius.

Plus now we have Kreoss3 who rivals both Reznik and Feora in melee while also being a way better spellcaster too. The way I see it, Kreoss3 basically makes both Reznik and Feora completely obsolete.

[Snipafist]

Of course theyre melee warcasters. The only thing they do better than other Protectorate warcasters is melee... If we want a "jack buddy" or a "spell slinger" weve got other warcasters that are way better at both those things, like Amon or Severius.

Plus now we have Kreoss3 who rivals both Reznik and Feora in melee while also being a way better spellcaster too. The way I see it, Kreoss3 basically makes both Reznik and Feora completely obsolete.

Yes, but we don't have a jack buddy (by which I mean makes one or two jacks amazing rather than a generalized buff-bot like Amon) that does melee as well or a spell slinger that does melee as well either. When you start cornering Kreoss or Severius, you don't need to worry too much about their melee punch. The same is not true of pFeora or Reznik, who will happily personally destroy piecemeal threats that get through your lines. If you don't use the melee threat or at least the melee threat potential of those casters, then you're right. You're better off with other casters. I also grant that doing so can be tricky.

I'll be interested in seeing how Kreoss3 plays out. He definitely packs a punch and his upkeep army support rivals pSevy's, which is really saying something. The large base is something that is going to be very difficult to screen, however. I suspect that even though his melee output will be within spitting range of our Engine of Destruction casters, getting good use out of it while keeping him alive in subsequent turns will be even harder. That's just pure conjecture at this point, though.

[Soulblighter]

Yes, but we don't have a jack buddy (by which I mean makes one or two jacks amazing rather than a generalized buff-bot like Amon) that does melee as well or a spell slinger that does melee as well either.

Amon is underestimated in melee. With synergy he can rival Reznik in melee once he gets to +3/+3. Id take synergy over IA any day since it buffs the entire battlegroup. Mobility is also a huge buff to Amon's battlegroup.

Severius2 is another warcaster thats underestimated in melee. Creator's wrath doesnt make him quite as good as Reznik or Feora, but he can still kill most warcasters without breaking a sweat. Hes also vastly better than Feora at spellcasting.

And I already mentioned Kreoss3.

My point is theres not a whole lot that Reznik and Feora bring to the table that our other warcasters can't do better. I feel they're two of our weakest warcasters and that both of them need a huge buff in Mk3.

[paradox]

Oh sweet Je... pardon, Menoth, Paradox that was some response. Thank you! You gave me hell's load of things to think about. All I can say after reading your post... who the hell said that pFeora has no synergies with our army???

Below is a 35pt and 50pt list variants I was using at the end of 2011 (before Crutch-Free). The list ended up going 10-1 or something ridiculous like that.

I played her as mid-field support, making LOTS of use of Wall of Fire and Blazing Effigy and Hex Hammer, and moderate use of the SPs and feat. I did land some Engine of Destruction kills, but I was not missling her at them.

Here's some old threads about the list
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ighlight=feora
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...ighlight=feora
Feora
-Templar
-Hierophant

Avatar
KE
Daughters
min choir
Reclaimer
Piper
Gorman
Corbeau
35pts

Feora
-Templar
-Dervish
-Hierophant

Avatar
2x KE
2x Daughters
min choir
Reclaimer
Piper
Gorman
Corbeau
Wracks
50pts

[paradox]

I've never really cared much for pFeora or Reznik. Their ARM . . . are both so low,

Considering you appear to be discussing base stats, at ARM17, they are the highest ARM 'casters we have....

[paradox]

• Because she can handle a good number of enemy one-wound infantry by herself due to her feat, infantry that are good vs other infantry are generally not quite as helpful with her. You'll still want some, of course, but it can only really go so far.

Wall of Fire and Hex Hammer are good troop=protection measures too.

[Soulblighter]

Considering you appear to be discussing base stats, at ARM17, they are the highest ARM 'casters we have....

Yeah but with 16 wounds and 17 wounds thats not very impressive. Also they dont have defensive buffs. Feora is really no tougher than most Cygnar casters with arcane shield. I really do think Feora and Reznik should be a bit more tanky.

Because she can handle a good number of enemy one-wound infantry by herself due to her feat, infantry that are good vs other infantry are generally not quite as helpful with her. You'll still want some, of course, but it can only really go so far.

Feoras feat took a huge hit in MK2 though. Not only because infantry are used less but also because every caster can use Vanquisher/Vassal.

[TurdFerguson]

See I really like and have had some decent success with pFeora and Rezzy, while I get stomped when I play pSevvy or eFeora. May be my meta.

The largest problem I see with Rez and pFeora is that they are unsupportive of their armies in a faction that relies on synergy and support. Rez can IA, and Feora can Ignite, but no defensive buffs or movement buffs, which make me love Sevvy and Vindictus! Plus, their low focus demands focus helpers, and their spell heavy lists and reliance on boosting to hit with spells like Hex Blast really are a damper.

But with Rezzy, I've had success with lists that include an arc node, Avatar, and another jack like the Sanctifier or the Reckoner, with Zealots running and feating turn 1 to put the pressure on. Errands/Daughters to annoy and tarpit.

Plus, I find them both very very fun to play despite their faults. And I dunno, I play this game for fun.

[Soulblighter]

The largest problem I see with Rez and pFeora is that they are unsupportive of their armies in a faction that relies on synergy and support. Rez can IA, and Feora can Ignite, but no defensive buffs or movement buffs, which make me love Sevvy and Vindictus!

I agree they should have defensive buffs. Every strong melee warcaster in the game has ways to buff their DEF or ARM except these two knuckleheads.

[paradox]

Yeah but with 16 wounds and 17 wounds thats not very impressive.

16-17 wounds is what the vast majority of 'casters have.
A few have 14-15.
A few have 18+.
So, at least in terms of base stats, they have above-average ARM and average wounds. Defensive buffs and FOC/camping can affect "tankiness" though. But that is a much bigger picture than looking at the pure stats, and has as much to do with board position as it does with final DEF/ARM.

I find Reznik's single greatest vulnerablity is his base size, not his stats. However, both are such large melee threats on any given turn that the threat alone aids survivability. And unlike Amon, who counts on other models being in play, activating before him, and hitting, Reznik and Feora just cast a spell. Sevy2 can do that, but at 14/14 and 16 wounds also, tends not to be in position to pull it off. He is also much more dice-dependant, having low stats, but more dice.

[Soulblighter]

16-17 wounds is what the vast majority of 'casters have.

Yeah I know. I just always find it a bit strange that Kreoss and the High Reclaimer have 18 wounds, but Feora and Reznik only have 16 and 17 wounds respectively. That just seems wrong to me.

Defensive buffs and FOC/camping can affect "tankiness" though. But that is a much bigger picture than looking at the pure stats, and has as much to do with board position as it does with final DEF/ARM.

When you compare Feora/Reznik to similar casters you start to see the problem. For example, eStryker starts out with similar base stats: 16/16, which become 16/19 with AS, and then 16/21 with Deflection. While Feora is always stuck at 15/17. It's pretty clear she needs some kind of defensive buff, like nearly every other melee warcaster in the game has.

I find Reznik's single greatest vulnerablity is his base size, not his stats.

Yeah I already mentioned that. Medium based casters typically get better defensive stats as compensation. For example, even Asphyxious is 15/16 with 18 wounds. Of all the medium based casters I looked at Reznik has the lowest defensive stats by far. Reznik should've kept that MK1 rule that gave him +2 ARM while engaged, I think its called Unyielding in MK2. He got noticeably less tanky when he lost that.

[paradox]

In any event, I have found Feora 1 to be an excellent mid-field support 'caster/spell-slinger, rather than a pure melee 'caster.

[Soulblighter]

In any event, I have found Feora 1 to be an excellent mid-field support 'caster/spell-slinger, rather than a pure melee 'caster.

So do you think Protectorate will ever get a pure melee caster? Or do you think Feora and Reznik were just failed attempts? I tend to think the latter, but ive never really been a fan of optimism :P

[paradox]

I think that's an interesting question. I'd need to know what you mean by "pure melee 'caster" first.

Eg, Karchev or Butcher are pure melee 'casters?

What is the minimal DEF/ARM/wounds base? MAT and P+S? What offsets are acceptable if they have defensive/offensive buffs? Is reach required? Do they NEED to be poor at spell-slinging/ranged? Or simply prefer melee?

I would say Feora1/2, Reznik, Kreoss2, and Thyra all melee very well, and can play the role or melee beatstick missiling for the kill.

Amon, HR/ToM, and Harbie to a lesser extent (Amon with Synergy, Harbie with 11 P+S12s, or Cataclysms at melee range, more or less melee kills. HR/ToM on big soul turns).

I won't comment on Kreoss3. Kreoss1 could, if he could deliver himself like Feora2 can.

So, for me at least, a melee 'caster is one who can legitimately play the personal assassination game. The top 5 I mentioned can and I do it with them. The second ranking tier can, but usually don't want to.

[Soulblighter]

I think that's an interesting question. I'd need to know what you mean by "pure melee 'caster" first.

By a "pure melee caster", I mean a warcaster who can take hits as good as they can give them. We dont really an equivalent to Karchev, Darius, Terminus, etc...

We have tons of casters that are decent in melee, but none of them can really survive on the frontlines. Even our best melee casters, like Feora and Reznik, are depressingly easy to assassinate.

[paradox]

I actually find Karchev and Darius pretty easy to kill. Sure, they have boxes and ARM. But it's the low DEF that does them in. Vlad1 and Butcher, eg are much harder to kill.

For Menoth, that's Feora2 and Vindictus. Vindy hits like a noodle though.
Feora2 is respectable, but not the hardest hitter. But 15/17 + Escort and camping makes her very tough.

Even Terminus has to be careful. It's not his stats, its sac pawn + feat that makes him hard to kill.

IMO, a 'caster that does what you want needs 15/17 or better and/or a buff, and MAT8 P+S15 or better and/or a buff.

I think Reznik is in the melee 'caster range, if tanking up is a key. He's easily MAT11 P+S18+ when it counts and can feat + Purgation. Until then, he can be 14/23. DEF is a little low, but hitting power is beyond good. Insane if they have an upkeep in play.
Reznik can also really benefit from Corbeau.

[Soulblighter]

I actually find Karchev and Darius pretty easy to kill. Sure, they have boxes and ARM. But it's the low DEF that does them in. Vlad1 and Butcher, eg are much harder to kill.

Karchev and Darius are still way tougher than any of the casters Protectorate has. Low DEF is generally what does our casters in too, with the majority of PoM casters being DEF14. Protectorate seems to get the lowest DEF+ARM on average on their casters. I always assumed in MK1 that the Devout was the reason why, but in MK2 the Devout is essentially useless in its bodyguard role. So im not really sure what the reason is anymore.

I definitely think the Protectorate needs a tank caster though. I dont really care if its a paladin of the wall or some crazy pope mobile with severius3 in a bubble. I just want to see Protectorate get a caster that has like ARM18+ and 20+ wounds.

[Silverstar843]

Well, the weakest spot of any Protectorate army is the caster. It just seems to be built into all the crazy don't-kill-me-or-else or the nope-can't-do-that tricks we have. We are just simply not the faction of frontline casters like Khador or the my caster > your caster style that is Cygnar.

[Arractur]

Dear Sirs, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. You all are awesome.

I eventually made up a roster for 15p tournament. I know that its not a roster forum but opening a new thread would be stupid flooding.

Feora +6
Crusader -6 (0)
Avatar -11
minChoir -2

This leaves us in two points and I can't decide what to get. As long as I see, Feora and Avatar with Gaze will provide enough anti-infantry, and Crusader is good enough in wrecking jacks(along with Ava ofc). So I see next variants:
1)Vassal will bring more opportunities for Blazing Effigy with Avatar due to Enliven;
2)Wracks + Mechanic - thats the easy one, to get more focus, los blocking, and mechanic to not waste 1 point. (Hierofant don't seems to be fitting in here(however maybe I am wrong?).
3)Something combat - Gorman or Kel Bailoch?
4)Don't take choir since Ava has enough Mat and Crusader will fight mostly jacks and beasts and will have enough too, and take both vassal and wracks+mech?
5)Change crusader for some 4 points light stuff - Dervish, Vigilant(don't want to buy Devout honestly) - and take Choir, Wracks, Mechanic and Vassal

Any opinions? Thank you anyway

[Soulblighter]

Well, the weakest spot of any Protectorate army is the caster. It just seems to be built into all the crazy don't-kill-me-or-else or the nope-can't-do-that tricks we have. We are just simply not the faction of frontline casters like Khador or the my caster > your caster style that is Cygnar.

I think a lot of that has to do with how weak the Devout is as a bodyguard in MK2. The Devout seems like it was designed along the same principle as our warjacks/choir; like how our warjacks have slightly worse statlines than cygnar warjacks, but the choir makes up for it. The Devout was probably supposed to make up for most of our warcasters being DEF14, its just defensive strike and shield guard are both pretty useless in MK2...

[Bollster]

I'd keep the choir, it protects you against any anti-heavy shooting that may be floating around certain lists and the damage and MAT buffs will be useful against Khador jacks and Warpwolves alike. I think the Vassal is your friend here as at this point level it's often harder to stop your jacks from waltzing off at the first hint of damage. It looks like a pretty good list, good luck burning those heathens.

[Venom321]

I Love pFeora big fan. The wall of fire can stop infantry cold. Blazing effigy is amazing for the same thing also one of the reasons i like to run a dervish. immolate is eh considering she has 2 range 8 sprays for the same that auto fire. Ignite is always great. I like to run her with 3 to 4 jacks a vanquisher repenter dervish and a reckoner normally. The Ranged don't really need alot of focus and it gives you more blazing effigy targets. her feat i think is eh at best. most of the stuff we run has crit fire or fire on their normal attacks so i just try and get their infantry and caster in range and pop it. Hex hammer is great against spellcasters but i run into do i want to run pfeora or reznik. Which is better a d3 against everything casting a spell or animus or witch hound. I prefer reznik and the option for efeora because she can generally cover more bases.

[Nanoha]

Feora +6
Crusader -6 (0)
Avatar -11
minChoir -2

Hmm, my plan for a 15pt. list has been pFeora, 2 8pt jacks and a min cinerator unit (since I have them from the 2 player box). But seeing that list I might have to change things around to include some support.


I also wanted to say great write-up Paradox! I'm a big Feora fan, so it's good to read about someone taking pFeora more seriously than I've seen here on the boards.

[hausdorff space]

Below is a 35pt and 50pt list variants I was using at the end of 2011 (before Crutch-Free). The list ended up going 10-1 or something ridiculous like that.

... what sort of pFeora lists would you be inclined to use at 15 and 25pts?

[paradox]

I don't really play games that small, outside of MM.

I suppose you could cut down to something like this:

Feora
-Templar
-Hierophant

Avatar
Daughters
min choir
Gorman
Wracks

25pts

[Themainmenoth]

for me I'd say
Feora -6
Revenger (Free)
Crusaderx2 +12
choir (min) +2
Wrack +1
all at 15 points, that's 2 heavies, 1 arc node, support for both jacks and caster, anti infantry built into spell list, and you'll be tearing people apart. Speed may be the only flaw of this list.

[TurdFerguson]

Why so many jacks? Where are you getting the focus for two focus hungry jacks? (in addition to a focus to run the arc around) Are you not using Walls or her other useful spells?