Which do you use more, Cyclone or Defender?

[fossilu]

Just curious.

I'm trying to decide which to add to my force. Cyclone seems fun but for the points I think 2 Sentinels would be better. Defender has great range. Wish it had more than 1 shot though.

[Professor Lust]

Just curious.

I'm trying to decide which to add to my force. Cyclone seems fun but for the points I think 2 Sentinels would be better. Defender has great range. Wish it had more than 1 shot though.

Hmm reread strafe and then reread rapid fire.

Covering fire is also generally better than shield guard unless you face Cygnar or ret.


To the orginal question: they're a bit like apples and oranges. Sure their both fruit but they give you different flavors.

[knight_actual]

Cyclone. Defender is good but for the job I prefer them to do I think the hunters do better.

There are no other models that compete with the cyclone for what it does.

[whitesox]

Cyclone. Defender is good but for the job I prefer them to do I think the hunters do better.

There are no other models that compete with the cyclone for what it does.

Stormwall?

With the release of the Stormwall and its ability to cover fire I have never been able to justify taking a cyclone. The stormwall just offers so much to the faction and out of all the jacks it makes the cyclone the most redundant in my opinion.

[Defenstrator]

I use my Defender more. Solid long range firepower and can hold its own late game with MAT 7 and the POW 16. The Cyclone is always that second or third jack. You take it if you want cover fire more than another unit, and while two handed throws are nice don't expect to kill anything in its own weight class.

If you're thinking of taking both in a list, the Stormwall is a decent alternative.

[Ender101]

I use the defender more often. I like the strong ranged threat backed up by the potent melee potential. The Cyclone isn't bad, its just a pricy anti-infantry piece most of the time, and board control piece some of the time. The only time I reach for the cyclone is when playing Kara Sloan to marshal to gun mages, and sometimes when playing Kraye (both of whom get a Defender before a Cyclone). Especially with the new Stormwall, I can't see any reason to take a Cyclone in most lists.

[TerTer]

If you have the points go Stormwall, combination of both and more. If have to pick one, depends, if you want dmg heavy targets go Defender, can put a hurt in most heavy stuff, if you need to control infantry cyclone. From all tries i like defender more as want my heavies to hurt heavy stuff not infantry

[Sanguinary Dan]

It's not a question of which I use more, so much as who I use them with.

Defenders are Siege's best buds and he always runs with a pair. Heck, they are even good with eStryker or any Nemo. Being able to smash something with a P&S18 Shock Hammer after a couple of Heavy Barrel hits generally means it's dead.

But Cyclones are superb with ATGM UAs. Being able to chose everything from Covering Fire to 2d3 Thunderbolts or Critical Brutals is a winner. And if my caster can hand out Snipe he's even better. And of course they work very well with Kraye as he can guarantee hits against nearly any DEF. Not to mention the boost Heavy Cavalry gives their Open Hands.

So generally I'll put the Defender on the table more often at 35 or less. At 50 it's pretty even.

[vintersbastard]

There are no other models that compete with the cyclone for what it does.

TCGs to some extent, depending on the rest of the army.

[Darkangeldentist]

I use cyclones a lot more than defenders, mostly due to my choice of casters. I like to keep my lines clear of infantry if I can and covering fire does this splendidly and though cyclones are not quite up to much in melee against the toughest foes I do find they are about equal to a defender in melee against lower ARM due to having an extra attack. (Since it has two fist as opposed to just one hammer.) The ragman has been making my cyclone quite a good melee threat.

I think there are a couple of advantages to the cyclone's covering fire over the stormwall, being an action has some odd benefits as well as problems but overall I rate them about equal in that respect. (Stormwall can covering fire even when denied special actions and can do things even whilst placing the templates. However the cyclone can perform covering fire even when blinded or under spells that deny ranged attacks such as full tilt. The key bonus in my eyes is that cyclones do not have to worry about fields of fire. It allows a lot more freedom when placing the templates and determining facing.

I haven't used a defender in a while. The range of it's gun is great but it's still only a single shot and I rarely get a good enough damage roll to impress unless picking on solos. (In which case it's a bit overkill.) I also have a soft spot for hunters and like them a bit more than defender for general play. However between the cyclone and the defender my current game history has me all over the cyclone.

[Sardonic Artery]

Yay, Stormwall ruins another thread about jacks.

See also:

-Boomhowler and Nyss hunters for infantry threads
-eHaley, eCaine and eStryker for caster threads

[John Q.]

I have a pCaine list that pretty much hinges around the ridiculous board control a Cyclone Marshalled to gun mages gives you. The multiple shots with thunderbolt lets you basically keep a heavy out of the game for turns on end. Two, sometimes, if you pick your targets right and have a bit of luck.

[GunMageinTraining]

Yay, Stormwall ruins another thread about jacks.

Not talking about him would be disingenuous at best. He is the tiger in the room. The truth is, Cyclones are a 9pt heavy that can't kill heavies. They are barely ok at killing infantry, and really, that more relies upon the infantry killing themselves on the covering fire templates. See how often that actually happens...

[knight_actual]

My thought about the cyclone is that whil it acts as board control against infantry during early game, it has alot of roles after that. Shooting with the gun itself during mid-game to nuke some infantry or put some damage on medium or even heavies. Then late game, this model is the cheapest 2open hand model in our roster to setup assassinations.

He also sees alot of play because the gunmages see alotofplay.

[Dark Fledgling]

I use defenders ALL the time, and its very common for me to drop a two point solo and add in ATGM's+UA+Defender too pretty much every cygnar list when going from 35 to 50.
Cyclone does see play time, but only in specific lists. 9 points is alot for only the two templates, but ive played with double cyclone before and the utility just sky rockets. I'm heavily considering some 50pt lists with Stormwall+Cyclone as the core of a battlegroup. Having four templates pretty much mitigates any infantry charge, just mulching units to pieces.

-DF

[Ulfast]

I use the Defender. I really like it´s ability both at long range but also in close combat.

[etherya]

I use Defender when short in points, never used Cyclone 'cause if I want to negate a portion of table with dual covering fire I prefer kill'em'all with pew pew. At 50+ points Stormwall over both, 'cause I have it and it's fantastic.

[Strangelove]

When the Cyclone first dropped I was slow to integrate it because the Defender was such a staple warjack choice for me. At this point though I would say its a 50/50 split.

[etherya]

Cyclone have meah melee weapons, Defender have good one instead, 50:50 isn't the right balance

[vintersbastard]

The key bonus in my eyes is that cyclones do not have to worry about fields of fire.

Neither does the Stormwall. Field of Fire only restricts targeting.

[Defenstrator]

I was going to disagree, looked stuff up to be sure, and can only conclude that you're right. The fields of fire rules only restrict targeting models, and the templates only require the weapon be within range and LOS. But I think a ruling would be a good idea, because I can see a lot of arguments springing up since it seems to violate the spirit of the rule that a weapon which can't normally fire out of its arc can suddenly place things beyond it.

Has this ruling already been made?

[vintersbastard]

Has this ruling already been made?

As of yet, no, but every thread I could find came to this conclusion.

[JohnOSpencer]

Cyclone have meah melee weapons, Defender have good one instead, 50:50 isn't the right balance

Against Warbeasts with ARM19 or lower (or ARM 18 or lower jacks) the Cyclone is at least as good in melee. Also don't discount the ability of a two handed throw. Nothing clears a jack out of a zone like a good throw.

That being said, I use the Defender a bit more, but I've been trying the Cyclone as a second heavy in some lists (especially if they have Rangers).

[Halfhoot]

It's hard for me to put 9 points into a heavy that mainly deals with infantry since infantry is usually not that big of a problem for me. The Defender I use mainly to pick off important UAs or solos or threaten the caster until something big comes in range and then it's hammer time. I like that super long range ability to take out mini feats by dropping a specific model or whatnot.

Cyclone has been hit or miss the times I"ve played it... sometimes it is amazing like keeping Alexia and the Risen bottled up between some terrain or something like that. Sometimes it has done very little. Depends on what you're up against. I'm really thinking about bringing one along with a stormwall when I get that just to put out another set of covering fires.

[King-of-Storms]

I have to say I use the Defender more than Cyclones but not by much.

Cyclones are my primary infantry support, anti-infantry jack support platform.

Defenders are my long range artillery jacks. Some people say the Hunter is better in this department, maybe but you forget the Defender has 16 inch range and is easily given additional range with the many Cygnar range buffs. If you want to hammer away at something big and tough, go with Defenders.

Hunters I use to soften up big targets in hit-and-run maneuvers. Defenders can't do that, not as well eitherway.

[RidetheLightning]

In most cases, I feel a Defender has more merit than a Cyclone. I'm able to aim more often, making boosting less of an issue, the one shot is usually enough to scare my opponent into rethinking where he sends soft targets and I still like his hammer for finishing off cortexes. With that said, the Cyclone does have excellent infantry control, works wonders with keeping your warcaster safe, can perform the occasional two-handed throw to knock down a enemy and lastly is a brutal board control model when 'Jack Marshaled to the ATMG UA. Actually, he's the best 'Jack Marshal target IMO.

[Dogma]

I always take a Defender in my lists, and usually two of them, simply because it gives my army that ultra-long ranged caster kill potential.

[Joasht]

I wouldn't take the Cyclone at below 50 points; Cygnar in general doesn't require more low-ish POW shots in their lists. I'm not a massively huge fan of the Defender either (since its not grand at killing heavies itself), but I do admit that in a select few lists (e.g. with Siege) it is probably one of the best choices.

[Sardonic Artery]

I always take a Defender in my lists, and usually two of them, simply because it gives my army that ultra-long ranged caster kill potential.

Although I think many of us will admit that once the avenger comes out, the era of the dual defender is dead.

[GunMageinTraining]

+6" range and +1 Speed, (not to mention +2 Rat) is hard to beat. Though, I would tend to agree, Avenger is a great choice for a primary, or secondary heavy. More than capable of ranged or melee combat. Though, at the range your engaging at, many jacks will be able to charge it next turn, where Defender normally has at least 2 turns of shooting before having to mix it up.

[jlav]

Hmm, as mentioned above, the Cyclone and Defender fill different roles, do different things. Frankly, I'm hesitant to bring either.

The Defender won't deal with heavies on its own, but will kill solos and warcasters outright and can get into melee with already weaker/weakened stuff. It's only real boon is its threat range. I use these with Siege and pStryker, and Kraye. I think with an Avenger it will be more valuable, but 90% of the time, I'm finding better value in the Hunter.

The Cyclone is a toolbox. With the gun mage jackmarshal, it has a decent threat range, and has picked off some valuable models; Not to mention the sublime number of thunderbolts you can harass your opponent with. My Cyclone has always had a use, though it doesn't shine at any one thing, it's always got something to do. Ironically, sometimes all it needs to do is attract attention, buying time for more important pieces. I will only bring it for options.

Neither of these jacks scream to bring them, since the Defender has often had only one shot in the game, or done absolutely nothing. Other games, it wins outright. Likewise my Cyclone has had many games of being useless and ineffectual, while others where it pulled off the win.