At what point is "close enough" close enough?

[SuperTheBoss]

Hey everyone,

We've been running into issues at my LGS involving how strictly we're following the rules. I'll try to put this as neutrally as possible and see what everyone thinks. We play mostly friendly games with nothing at stake really. There is one side that believes that "friendly game" means that if you had the intent of doing things a particular way, then close enough is fine. Stuff like assuming that models with the shield wall rule are in shield wall as long as they are base to base and didn't receive any other orders that turn, or if you charge and make it to within some really small amount or so it counts, or drawing slightly curved lines for LOS or a charge or slam. The other side basically says that this kind of thing is not okay and that the rules are the rules and that's that pretty much. The whole disagreement is about having fun which makes it a little fuzzy because one side thinks the game is more fun one way and the other side thinks it's more fun the other way and we're really all just trying to have an environment that is fun for everyone to play, but someone is unhappy with a situation like this almost every game that gets played and I'm trying to figure out what to do so that we don't have people not wanting to play at our store anymore. Maybe this is in the wrong part of the forums, but I didn't think it necessarily fit into the rules questions section, and I feel like I know the people here on the Khador forums to some extent and I trust that you guys will have some insight. So my question is where do you draw the line on these sorts of iffy situations in game and what do you do when there's a disagreement? I'd be a little surprised if our store is the only one that's ever had this issue.

Thanks,
--Richard

[Tyr852]

It's been posted in general , my take is if you have to cheat to have fun (by not following the rules) then its a slippery slope that doesn't really have a right answer since you don't have a line in the sand to draw.

[dkvoe]

Close enough isn't.

My feeling is that if "close enough" is good enough for some things then how do you decide when something isn't close enough? My group had a similar problem when we started playing but we decided that we were playing a game of measurements therefore measurements mattered. Otherwise, you're going to have more fights over what measurements are close enough and what rules matter.

As an example, I was playing against a friend who actually introduced us to warmachine one night. I was playing Khador, he was playing Cryx. I don't remember what the attacking model was but he would not allow me to have my armor bonus on the great bears because they were not QUITE base to base. I begrudgingly accepted this and the very next turn started blasting his Witch's coven off the board as they were not quite base to base. He threw a fit and has not been back yet. It's been a year. Same exact rule, maybe 2 activations between the two incidents but he felt that not base to base was not base to base for his attacks on my unit but was close enough for his casters.

Just stick to the rules, it makes everything easier and, as counter intuitive as this sounds, allows everyone to enjoy themselves more.

[rivenwyrm]

I think it's better to err on the side of being exact, although it's also important to be respectful about it. At least in part because it means that when new people come to your store, they don't have somebody charge them from an inch further than was appropriate, or have their caster shot because someone drew a bendy line. Now, things do get bumped or moved a tad, and it definitely sucks to fail a charge by a quarter inch, but if you're not in the habit of being exact about these things then you won't be exact when it's important. That's just my perspective, I suppose, but I wouldn't want to play board games with people who took extra cards or moved ahead extra spaces even if it makes it more fun for them.

I'm not sure if the act of checking is the problem, or just the attitudes about the results but:

To help with measurement of distances, if there's something in dispute place your bendy measuring tape on the table between the two models. Not to the sides, or over it, but in a direct line between the two. Not usually necessary, but also indisputable as long as models aren't bumped.

To help with LoS measurements, I typically just use a measuring tape turned sideways, basically as a cheap laser. Obviously use the blank side to check, so you can't measure with it.

[Karl Eller]

Rules are rules, and you should always try to follow them as closely as possible, simply so that everyone is on the same page. There are some times when I'll let people get away with "close enough", but these are usually only in situations where the models make it difficult/impossible to be exact (eg over-hanging models making base-to-base contact difficult), and only if my opponent COMMUNICATES with me. If you just make an advance with a unit and leave them close together then try to claim shield wall when I start shooting you, I won't let you get away with it, because you have to declare any orders. However, if you declare a shield wall order, move them up and tell me they should be in B2B but the models make it difficult (or tell me you're trying to get Defensive Line bonus) I'm much more likely to go along with it.

Also, if you get used to playing "close enough" rules, you're going to find playing in tournaments a shock, so it's better to get into the habit now.

[Binz]

Some times its just really hard to tell though.

For example, a recent game I had, enemy Knocked Down old witch, I placed a forest with Baldur and teleported to it to get within melee range.

We couldnt decide if Baldur was 2" away or 2.01" away. He looked like he was in melee range, but my opponent questioned how far he had teleported. We could figure out exactly where he was to begin with, since 1mm made all the difference. We ended up calling the game there anyway, but its an example of how 1mm (or less) is really difficult to judge especially given human error with a) measuring control range then b) placing a 4" AOE and c) placing a model in said AOE and d) placing the Melee measure. At any one of those points we may have inadvertantly bumped any number of objects, which could have made us 1mm closer or further apart.

[rivenwyrm]

You have a point Binz, but you were both at least trying to be precise. It sounds like the OP's situation is people claiming 2.25" is close enough to 2", which is an easily measurable difference.

A good tactic to take in these situations is to roll high/low for a contentious decision. Obviously it's not always satisfactory, but at least it's fair.

[Saekyn]

It's already been said, but this is a game of measurements, and the measurements MATTER. I can recall a dozen instances where a game would have ended differently but for a fraction of a centimeter, and I imagine I'm not alone in this. The trouble is, once you start making allowances for what rules are okay to bend, it's hard to stop. New players do this all the time, and as we're trying to encourage people to play and enjoy themselves, it can be really painful to have to stop them and say, "No, actually, you can't do that because..." and rewind a bit. It's not pleasant, but it has to be done.

I've always found that when you're unable to rule on something (as in both players admit they aren't sure, rather than both refusing to back down), it's always best to roll a dice, just to get things going. You'll have plenty of time to research similar problems later. People at my shop have a way of letting arguments completely derail their gaming, and it's painful to watch.

And again, this has been said before, but if you play with people that get pissy if they aren't allowed to draw curved LOS or ignore obscure freestrikes, then you're probably not going to enjoy yourself.

[tjhairball]

Some times its just really hard to tell though.

For example, a recent game I had, enemy Knocked Down old witch, I placed a forest with Baldur and teleported to it to get within melee range.

We couldnt decide if Baldur was 2" away or 2.01" away. He looked like he was in melee range, but my opponent questioned how far he had teleported. We could figure out exactly where he was to begin with, since 1mm made all the difference. We ended up calling the game there anyway, but its an example of how 1mm (or less) is really difficult to judge especially given human error with a) measuring control range then b) placing a 4" AOE and c) placing a model in said AOE and d) placing the Melee measure. At any one of those points we may have inadvertantly bumped any number of objects, which could have made us 1mm closer or further apart.

It's important to note that even in many tournaments, one will not be able to make measurements of arbitrarily good precision - or, in many cases, avoid bumping models while measuring or moving - and determining a backstrike after movement, for example, may be very difficult if it wasn't clear the model started in or outside of arc. A certain amount of good-spirited flexibility is required for the game to work smoothly at all unless you have an overhead camera with pretty high resolution. Similarly, a number of models simply can't be positioned where you're supposed to be able to position them, because they have giant pointy tusks in front or giant fists hanging over the sides of their base, and the game literally cannot be played as intended without being flexible on those points. PP has not restricted themselves to models which are contained within the cylinder of their base, and only those models are legal to use in tournaments.

I would say, though, that there's a very big difference between curved lines of charge or lines of sight, and the "no duh"s like assuming all models are in shield wall unless they use another order. Reciting "And my man-o-war unit is in shield wall" every turn that you don't charge with them is really unnecessary in terms of bogging the game down. I will actually say, at the beginning of a game, something like "My shocktroopers will be in shield wall every turn unless otherwise noted."

My casual gaming friends have found laser pointers useful for checking LOS. Straight lines should be fairly easy to manage.

[tjhairball]

It's already been said, but this is a game of measurements, and the measurements MATTER. I can recall a dozen instances where a game would have ended differently but for a fraction of a centimeter, and I imagine I'm not alone in this. The trouble is, once you start making allowances for what rules are okay to bend, it's hard to stop. New players do this all the time, and as we're trying to encourage people to play and enjoy themselves, it can be really painful to have to stop them and say, "No, actually, you can't do that because..." and rewind a bit. It's not pleasant, but it has to be done.

I've always found that when you're unable to rule on something (as in both players admit they aren't sure, rather than both refusing to back down), it's always best to roll a dice, just to get things going. You'll have plenty of time to research similar problems later. People at my shop have a way of letting arguments completely derail their gaming, and it's painful to watch.

And again, this has been said before, but if you play with people that get pissy if they aren't allowed to draw curved LOS or ignore obscure freestrikes, then you're probably not going to enjoy yourself.

IMO, whether or not the players are admitting ambiguity, it's so trivially easy for a small mistake to have been made in measuring the movement that led to the position in the first place (e.g., via perspective) that rolling a die is the only way to resolve any dispute over a measurement that is within a small fraction of an inch - especially since in the process of measuring a player may have easily bumped one or the other model a couple of millimeters either direction.

Not rolling a die actually encourages players with subtly sloppy play - e.g., ones with a habit of "accidentally" bumping the enemy model away a little with their ruler when putting the end of their measure up next to it.

We're also not talking about lab precision equipment. Some rulers may no longer be precisely the same length as they started, and they may have easily been 1% off in the first place.

[Leprousy]

I understand both sides. It gets especially hairy when you have situations like base to base, and the models don't actually allow them to be in base to base. Recently we played a multi player unbound game. I had my IFP assault, and than mini feat. One of the models couldn't be b2b without shifting his arc slightly out, which would have meant I couldn't attack who I wanted to. I said they are B2b, but one of the opponents didn't hear. Fortunately the other opponent did hear, and spoke up when it became an issue. It was also a pure friendly game. With 300+ models we were letting a lot slip.

On one hand it is a game of measurements etc... On the other some aspects of models contradict that. I say that you should be clear with you intent. If you are shield walling guys say, " hey these guys are b2b and shield walled. If someone later points out that one guy in 1/64" out of B2B, say, "oops I knocked him a second ago, and remind him of the no d-bag rule.

This also goes both ways, because it's a game of precision (with the aforementioned issues.) Draw LOS correctly. I've had 1/32" of base clipping win me a game when he tried to charge over the edge of a jacks base to get to a caster. I made him draw it with a straight edge before moving. Does that make me a d-bag? No! It's too damn close to call by eye, and gives an unfair advantage if you "bend LOS".

I also believe in friendly games there is room for allowance of, oh crap I forgot to do my maintenance phase, or I started to move this unit, but dammit I screwed up and needed this solo activated first. Tourneys are clearly a different world, but in friendly games who wants to win because their opponent made, and realized in time, a stupid mistake. Remember the no d-bag rule!

The reality is that it's a game. The rules are there to ensure fairness, which hopefully contributes toa "fun" experience. I think the solution to your issues lie somewhere between the two groups. Respect the rules, but also understand reality of clunky figures on uneven surfaces. Oh, and don't forget the Don't be a d-bag rule!

[Karl Eller]

Some times its just really hard to tell though.

For example, a recent game I had, enemy Knocked Down old witch, I placed a forest with Baldur and teleported to it to get within melee range.

We couldnt decide if Baldur was 2" away or 2.01" away. He looked like he was in melee range, but my opponent questioned how far he had teleported. We could figure out exactly where he was to begin with, since 1mm made all the difference. We ended up calling the game there anyway, but its an example of how 1mm (or less) is really difficult to judge especially given human error with a) measuring control range then b) placing a 4" AOE and c) placing a model in said AOE and d) placing the Melee measure. At any one of those points we may have inadvertantly bumped any number of objects, which could have made us 1mm closer or further apart.

This is a matter of being as exact as possible with all your measurements and then accepting where they end up. If you're careful with placing your AOE and then careful with teleporting your model, sometimes you may just have to accept that you wind up JUUUST outside of melee range (reach templates make checking these things easier).

[Tyr852]

Buy a pack of each base size and mark the front arcs , you now have stand ins when you need b2b contact or something doesn't fit quite right due to large tusks/fists. Also works for curved lines , free strikes , wreck markers , ect. Easily one of the more useful purchase our group made.

[OldOneEye]

Oh, this takes me back... am I the only one here that remembers the wars people used to get into over this subject on the old forums?

I don't think there's ever going to be a satisfactory answer to the issue of measurement. Others have said it, so I'll just agree: you can only be so precise with the tools available in this game. Strive for precision, but dice for it if it's too close to call. Also, the templates that PP sells are godsends for these kinds of problems-- that melee gauge solves 99% of measurement issues.

As far as the other stuff, there's no two ways about it. Be explicit in your intent. If you didn't say Shield Wall, it didn't happen. If you didn't move a model in a straight line, you didn't charge or slam. Rules are there so that the game works the same way for everyone. Slippery slope and all, but when do you decide that a charge fails? How far CAN the line curve? The Shield Wall thing I'm a bit more flexible on. If you only moved your Shocktroopers 4" and made sure they're all in base contact, you probably meant to put them in Shield Wall. I'd probably even ask (after their activation, though, so it's too late to do it :P)

The more I think about it, the more I wonder: what kinds of gaming aids does this group use? Tokens or some kind of markers clear up most of the ambiguity; if I have a Shield Wall token sitting there, I'm going to remember to use it, and my opponent will know it's active. Same thing with the melee gauge-- if there's room between the gauge and the model(s), it's not a successful charge.

[Saekyn]

I understand both sides. It gets especially hairy when you have situations like base to base, and the models don't actually allow them to be in base to base. Recently we played a multi player unbound game. I had my IFP assault, and than mini feat. One of the models couldn't be b2b without shifting his arc slightly out, which would have meant I couldn't attack who I wanted to. I said they are B2b, but one of the opponents didn't hear. Fortunately the other opponent did hear, and spoke up when it became an issue. It was also a pure friendly game. With 300+ models we were letting a lot slip.

On one hand it is a game of measurements etc... On the other some aspects of models contradict that. I say that you should be clear with you intent. If you are shield walling guys say, " hey these guys are b2b and shield walled. If someone later points out that one guy in 1/64" out of B2B, say, "oops I knocked him a second ago, and remind him of the no d-bag rule.

This also goes both ways, because it's a game of precision (with the aforementioned issues.) Draw LOS correctly. I've had 1/32" of base clipping win me a game when he tried to charge over the edge of a jacks base to get to a caster. I made him draw it with a straight edge before moving. Does that make me a d-bag? No! It's too damn close to call by eye, and gives an unfair advantage if you "bend LOS".

I also believe in friendly games there is room for allowance of, oh crap I forgot to do my maintenance phase, or I started to move this unit, but dammit I screwed up and needed this solo activated first. Tourneys are clearly a different world, but in friendly games who wants to win because their opponent made, and realized in time, a stupid mistake. Remember the no d-bag rule!

The reality is that it's a game. The rules are there to ensure fairness, which hopefully contributes toa "fun" experience. I think the solution to your issues lie somewhere between the two groups. Respect the rules, but also understand reality of clunky figures on uneven surfaces. Oh, and don't forget the Don't be a d-bag rule!

Agreed. I don't play in tournaments because it tends to be high-stress and little fun for those involved, despite little more than bragging rights being on the line. I like friendly games, and I despise them turning into tense situations.

[cjkeys]

Onlytime I run into b2b issues is Karchev and Tow, I make sure my opponent knows the situation though. As for Shield Wall. as long as that token is next to them, they are in shield wall. Somew stuff tokens and markers make much easier.

[profparm]

I've been reading through old No Quarter pdfs (mostly for fluff), but one of them had a GREAT take on sportsmanship especially keeping Page 5 in mind. In my opinion, if someone is CLOSE, give it to them on a measurement. For me, Close is usually less than 1/10th or 1/20th of an inch, but that's usually enough of a distance for my opponent to look at me in disappointment when he's that far out. B2B is another one, due in part to models maybe not fitting next to each other, but also because it's something that's shaken easily enough by people accidentally nudging the table or anything like that. I am also a complete and utter klutz and manage to knock at least 2 or 3 of my models over per game by either rolling dice or reaching for other models or being mentally deficient, etc.

Now, something along the lines of "I didn't declare Shield Wall but it should be assumed" is, IMO, more in the vein of being right out. Things like THAT should be announced, especially since you have to make that decision BEFORE finding out if moving your SPD gets you where you really need to go or not (if you aren't as good at guessing measurements).

[Michael]

Eh, I'm late to this party, and a lot of the other posters have said mostly what I was going to say. But, I'll add my opinion, for what it's worth.

...
There is one side that believes that "friendly game" means that if you had the intent of doing things a particular way, then close enough is fine. Stuff like assuming that models with the shield wall rule are in shield wall as long as they are base to base and didn't receive any other orders that turn, or if you charge and make it to within some really small amount or so it counts, or drawing slightly curved lines for LOS or a charge or slam.

"Friendly game" or not, avoid ambiguity.
It takes all of an extra five seconds to say "This unit receives the Shield Wall order" and then to lay down a token showing that. If models physically can't be placed B2B for some reason (such as the sculpts), the book actually has a rule on this. It's fine; generally, tell your opponent "These models are supposed to be B2B, but the giant pokey pikes / long billowing cloaks / etc. prevent me from placing them properly."

Also: it has been my experience that people say "friendly game" to indicate "It's fine if we break the rules as long as it benefits me." I find that people with those attitudes are very poor sports, and I stopped gaming with them long ago. It's just not fun.

Play your best, win or lose. That is really the whole spirit and tone that this game tries to convey! Have fun taking your lumps, then try to up your performance next time around so you're the one who comes out on top! It is entirely possible to do this without getting into a cycle of machismo "win at all costs because winning is fun and winning is the point of the game" extremism. People can hold a positive attitude and still be aggressive while keeping the game friendly and fun for everyone involved.

The other side basically says that this kind of thing is not okay and that the rules are the rules and that's that pretty much.

The rules are the rules, though. (I say this as politely as possible; text doesn't convey tone very well.) Players really have to try to stick to the rules. It makes for a more fun game all around. After all, once you start down the slippery slope, where do you end?

"Well, my model without Reach is 1" away from your model... that's close enough to get that charge."

"Well, I know you put this model in the way to block my charge lane, but my Doom Reaver can just curve around him like this to attack his target...."

"OK, you rolled a 7, for a total of 14 for that attack on my warcaster. Well, I never actually said I cast Iron Flesh on the Butcher, but I did, so let me take away those two focus... OK, my DEF is 17, you missed. OK, my turn, the Butcher keeps all his focus and feats and attacks your warcaster...."

"Well, my Destroyer is only ROF of 1, but it would be cool if I could shoot your objective twice, so I'm going to shoot again. OK, I hit and .. Well, I know it's dice -12 and I can't boost, but I'm going to roll enough to destroy it, so I win the game!"

See what I mean?

The whole disagreement is about having fun which makes it a little fuzzy because one side thinks the game is more fun one way and the other side thinks it's more fun the other way and we're really all just trying to have an environment that is fun for everyone to play, but someone is unhappy with a situation like this almost every game that gets played ...

If players laid down the rules before the game, this would not happen. And the rules are: melee ranges are melee ranges, things work exactly like the book says, and so forth. This piece of terrain does X, Y, Z, and nothing more or less. That piece of terrain is X and does Y.

That being said: No Quarter #4 had a wonderful article on sportsmanship that I wish Privateer would reprint. To summarize:
- Don't be a jerk and try to win the game by beating your opponent over the head with the rules.
- This is a game about inches. If somebody is short by a millimeter, give it to them. We've using imprecise tools (tape measures) to represent goings-on in the game. Be generous to your opponent (within reason), be cool about things, and if your opponent does the same, everyone will have a good time. But stick to the rules!

..and I'm trying to figure out what to do so that we don't have people not wanting to play at our store anymore.

Are you the local Press Ganger? Does your store or local area have a Press Ganger? That might be an option to investigate.
Otherwise, see all the stuff I said above, as it applies.

The rules are there to provide an objective viewpoint. If everybody plays by them, no one can get their feelings hurt. Who can argue and feel slighted when the instructions are literally right there in front of them?

So my question is where do you draw the line on these sorts of iffy situations in game and what do you do when there's a disagreement? I'd be a little surprised if our store is the only one that's ever had this issue.

If a measurement is going to be tight, double and triple check it before any models are moved. Have both players check the measurement. If they're really not sure, have an impartial third party measure.

If player didn't declare terrain properly, and an important action comes down to whether the terrain is really X or Y, then one player should be gracious (and mature) enough to say "Well, we didn't define this properly first. We should have done that; we will have to learn from our mistakes and do better next time. It works to your advantage; continue."

In short, go to the rule book if there is a disagreement. If you can't resolve the issue quickly, decide how to play it for the rest of the game by dice-off. (The dice are impartial... Seriously, no rational person should be able to argue against that.) Look up the answer later and learn how to do it correctly from that point on!

"Disagreement" absolutely does not have to mean "shouting match" or "somebody gets their feelings hurt". Everyone playing this game really ought to have their grown-up underwear on and should be able to handle disagreements maturely. Prime MK II even addresses this issue (although I don't have a page reference handy. It's late, and I'm tired...)

SuperTheBoss,
I am going to go out on a limb here: is it correct to say that the Warmachine/Hordes players in your group are new to this game? Is it also fair to say that all of the players are at roughly the same skill level? And, is it also fair to say that some of the players are longtime devotees from games such as 40K?

I sort of get the feeling that this is the case. I might have more specific advice for you if those statements are true...But hey, we'll see.

I hope this helps!

[@Kriegsspiele]

So my question is where do you draw the line on these sorts of iffy situations in game and what do you do when there's a disagreement?

In my opinion there are 2 very different problems:

1. Communications

Stuff like assuming that models with the shield wall rule are in shield wall as long as they are base to base and didn't receive any other orders that turn...

Rules are rules, and you should always try to follow them as closely as possible, simply so that everyone is on the same page. There are some times when I'll let people get away with "close enough", but ... only if my opponent COMMUNICATES with me.

This is it! I love my Great Bears and IFPs ... but their models make it really hard to get them base to base (if at all). As I know about this fact, I'm communicating it proactively, telling my opponent exactly what I'm doing and why (e.g. turning one of them around or having a small space between their bases). Even on tournaments nobody has ever disagreed because everybody knows that there's no better solution than communication.

You can broaden this to a lot of other problems that might occur: Talk to your opponent before you're acting and agree on a solution. Don't run into problems you already know about or know they're going to happen!

Besides this, I'm absolutely comfortable with pre game agreements like simply adding the shieldwall marker etc. to get a faster and more fun game play. Talk, simply talk!

New(er) players should always be reminded while they are acting: they are learning and won't learn anything if you don't tell them what and how they could/should do things differently.

2. Measurement

or if you charge and make it to within some really small amount or so it counts, or drawing slightly curved lines for LOS or a charge or slam.

Close enough isn't. My feeling is that if "close enough" is good enough for some things then how do you decide when something isn't close enough? ... Just stick to the rules, it makes everything easier and, as counter intuitive as this sounds, allows everyone to enjoy themselves more.

It's already been said, but this is a game of measurements, and the measurements MATTER.

It's important to note that even in many tournaments, one will not be able to make measurements of arbitrarily good precision

I think it's better to err on the side of being exact, although it's also important to be respectful about it.

If a measurement is going to be tight, double and triple check it before any models are moved. Have both players check the measurement. If they're really not sure, have an impartial third party measure.

Once again this is a lot about communication before acting: We're not talking about regular movements here but about charges, movements, or teleports that aim to kill a model, especially the caster. The rules are clear and if one's missing for a millimetre: well, that's how it is (a failure). Measure before moving anything and if it's really, really close (by a hair's breadth) ask a third party to judge, roll a dice, whatever. But always stay respectful and responsive.

If it's a new(er) player: Let him do it (even with some more millimeteres missing), but tell him clearly that he won't get through with it anywhere else or in a later game. He needs (and most: wants) to know what he's doing right or wrong ... but he probably needs more time to learn estimating ranges.

[Marth]

When helping out other (mostly youth) M:tG gamers [Put the gun down, guys... it's just an example] with rules questions and debates, I used to say: "Never believe in what your friends say, only believe in what the rules say."

I think the same should be applied to WM/H. The rules tell you how (and therefor, when) you're playing the game. Not abiding to the rules means to not play the game. There's a great signature around (but I forgot whose it is), regarding rules and jerks, it's worth reading.

[ScottEBJJ]

The rules are there for every player to know before the game. When you start to deviate from them then no one has a accurate expectation of what is expected of them. I feel that is far more likely to cause friction then when all parties know exactly what to expect.

Oh and is this the signature?

[Marth]

Oh and is this the signature?

You betcha! Cloud-Gatherer really nails it!

[HeadHunter]

I can't disagree with anything that's been said so far. I believe that the rules exist to eliminate doubt and ambiguity - when we played Cops & Robbers or Cowboys & Indians as a kid, the lack of rules always led to "I shot you!" "No you didn't!"...

Being polite and sporting about it is important - and I've always felt that if a reconsideration or "take-back" is to be allowed, it's up to the opponent. They can decide to cut you some slack but they're not obligated to. If they want to hold you to the letter of the rule and you haven't previously agreed otherwise, that's their right.

[mangustheix]

I was recently at the ETC in the UK, adn the maturity of that competition really shows how I feel about the game. It was a tournament, so people were serious about their games, but everyone was very professional. Communication was excellent by all my opponents. If there was going to be any important move, such as with charges, runs to engage, freestrikes, etc, then it was declared, commited to, discussed as to the effects, and then measured to check. I know there was a critical measurement where I was trying to shoot Kovnik Joe. I declared I would be doing it and that I wanted to make a full advance towards him, and then shoot him. We measured it out before moving (move+shot was 18") and turns out I was in range. If I hadnt been then I would have just moved to the original position declared. This is how I would like people to play all the time. it sounds time consuming, but if you are playing people who know the game, and where the problems can come up, then you know when to do this sort of stuff.

As for other items I play two different ways. In casual games, if someone forgets to upkeep, allocate focus, etc then I will let them do it. I see this as a good practice for tournament play. I dont want to win a casual game where I am trying to learn because my opponent forgot to allocate focus. Same with B2B contact talked about above. if something is almost in B2B, and it is a casual game, I will say that is cool. Now, in tournament play, none of this is ok. You forget to allocate focus? tough luck, you will know for next time. If your not b2b? tough, you will remember to move them properly next turn. I also expect the same for me as well.

As an aside, in friendly games I act as if I am in a tournament. By this I mean I dont allow myself to correct silly things I do. My opponent can do all the takebacks he likes, but I dont let myself do that. I found that when I started been tough on myself I became a much better player. It is the old saying that you learn from your mistakes. I now never forget to feat with Old Witch. I also never move her forward unless really necessary, and many other little things (like dont get within 12" of a stalker between some stones unless you can ABSOLUTELY, GARANTEED kill one of the stones).

[IronComrade]

In Casual play, letting people "fudge" is perfectly reasonable to me. Winning games because your opponent forgets an asinine detail is not fun. Granted this is held to a reasonable standard. It's all about communication, if I have a friend and we want to prep for a tournie, then well talk about it and play the game as we would find it in a tournament setting, where every detail counts. Otherwise, just be reasonable and have fun.

[SuperTheBoss]

Thanks for all the great feedback guys. I wanted to remain as neutral as possible in my OP because I wasn't sure if I was the one being unreasonable, but it sounds like we're all in agreement about this for the most part.

Are you the local Press Ganger? Does your store or local area have a Press Ganger? That might be an option to investigate.
Otherwise, see all the stuff I said above, as it applies.

The rules are there to provide an objective viewpoint. If everybody plays by them, no one can get their feelings hurt. Who can argue and feel slighted when the instructions are literally right there in front of them?

...

SuperTheBoss,
I am going to go out on a limb here: is it correct to say that the Warmachine/Hordes players in your group are new to this game? Is it also fair to say that all of the players are at roughly the same skill level? And, is it also fair to say that some of the players are longtime devotees from games such as 40K?

I sort of get the feeling that this is the case. I might have more specific advice for you if those statements are true...But hey, we'll see.

I hope this helps!

So in response to this... It's a little funny actually. First of all, we have a really small group of regular players at our store. There are maybe 8-12 people depending on how often you would consider "regular". Out of those, there are 4 guys who have been playing since mk I and the rest of us either started in mk II or are converts from 40k or some other game. The interesting thing is, it's all of the mk I players who are so insistent that "friendly games" are just for fun and so rules can be bent. Apparently that was the attitude around our store when it was at it's old location and they were playing mk I. Since then the rest of us have joined and as we learned more about the game we wanted to make sure to get things right and so it's sort of turned into a "new vs. old" situation. (although it's mostly "middle-aged vs. old" really since most of us "new" guys have been playing for 2 years or so, but that's not the point.) So in short: you're partially right in your assumption, but maybe the roles aren't exactly what you thought. I don't know.

As far as a local press-ganger is concerned, we have one at another local(ish) store, but not at ours. One of the guys at our store is working on trying to become a press-ganger, but he's also the one who I'm trying to talk out of leaving our store for frustration over this issue. I should probably get in touch with our friendly neighborhood(ish) press-ganger and see what he has to say about the situation.

I was recently at the ETC in the UK, adn the maturity of that competition really shows how I feel about the game. It was a tournament, so people were serious about their games, but everyone was very professional. Communication was excellent by all my opponents. If there was going to be any important move, such as with charges, runs to engage, freestrikes, etc, then it was declared, commited to, discussed as to the effects, and then measured to check. I know there was a critical measurement where I was trying to shoot Kovnik Joe. I declared I would be doing it and that I wanted to make a full advance towards him, and then shoot him. We measured it out before moving (move+shot was 18") and turns out I was in range. If I hadnt been then I would have just moved to the original position declared. This is how I would like people to play all the time. it sounds time consuming, but if you are playing people who know the game, and where the problems can come up, then you know when to do this sort of stuff.

As for other items I play two different ways. In casual games, if someone forgets to upkeep, allocate focus, etc then I will let them do it. I see this as a good practice for tournament play. I dont want to win a casual game where I am trying to learn because my opponent forgot to allocate focus. Same with B2B contact talked about above. if something is almost in B2B, and it is a casual game, I will say that is cool. Now, in tournament play, none of this is ok. You forget to allocate focus? tough luck, you will know for next time. If your not b2b? tough, you will remember to move them properly next turn. I also expect the same for me as well.

As an aside, in friendly games I act as if I am in a tournament. By this I mean I dont allow myself to correct silly things I do. My opponent can do all the takebacks he likes, but I dont let myself do that. I found that when I started been tough on myself I became a much better player. It is the old saying that you learn from your mistakes. I now never forget to feat with Old Witch. I also never move her forward unless really necessary, and many other little things (like dont get within 12" of a stalker between some stones unless you can ABSOLUTELY, GARANTEED kill one of the stones).

^This all makes an exceptional amount of sense to me. I'll have to try looking at it more your way in friendly games and see if it leads to reduced frustration.

[Revamp]

I'm a player a bit in between those options a bit, so i'll tell ya what i do since i don't know what others will say. First off though, theres something you have to understand: I have eye issues. Now, i'm not talking glasses or something. I have permanent vertical double vision. I dunno if theres a name for it, but i can't afford a doctor to fix it. Anyway, because of that, and seeing about 1.5 times the models that are actually in a given area, I have some issues where people say I'm cheating by not drawing a straight line or not to a model or pulling my model from front of base to back of base or something like that. To fix these, theres a few things i used.

1. For line of sight issues, buy a laser level. you can get them at hardware stores and they're about the same price as a blister. It lays down a straight line of light, and if you hold it in the air and point it down, you can see straight lines on the table without any distance markers being in play. Its also good for determining charges, because you can draw straight lines with it so easily. My spriggan got used about 40% more when i figured that out.

2. When you pull your tape measure, start measuring from the los marking on the side of the model and move it toward your target. do it low and follow the tape if you can, and when you feel the model hit the end of the tape at that little clip, stop there. The error distance for me went down a good centimeter, which is a big difference in this game.

3. Make a list of orders or such that you forget normally, and keep them in front of you. Just write in big text "Shock troopers need shield wall" or "Don't forget about parry!" for Kayazy. Also i always have to check for Harks feat because i remember the jacks getting assault and battery, but i always forget the +3 arm if i don't look at the sheet and remember. It sounds silly or even stupid, but it helps you remember stuff.

4. Always paint your los marking on the bases where you normally seem to point that model. I normally go for where the weapon or head is pointing and draw it that way, but that's me. Other wise, you paint it following the Shoulders or something like that and you always end up pointing them at some weird angle because of it.

Anyway, that's my two cents and tips. hope they help.

[mcdermott]

I find myself having to "close enough" mainly in situations where the model itself doesn't allow proper base to base or "in melee range" contact.

IE: Shock troopers in shield wall sometimes are too bulky to get a proper base to base, titans with their tusks are often thwarted from charges (one friend of mine has actually magnetized his titan tusks because of this) IFP with shield wall, etc etc.

TBH I'd really like a shield wall errata to be within .5 inches rather than B2B just for quality of play given that so many models with that rule have spears and shields and shoulders jamming up in all directions and making using the rule on the table needlessly difficult and risky of model damage.

[HeadHunter]

I have permanent vertical double vision. I dunno if theres a name for it, but i can't afford a doctor to fix it.

It's called dyplopia or ambylopia, it can be expensive to fix and there's no guarantee the fix will work - especially if it's something developed later in life or due to an injury.
I know what you're going through - I live with it every day. Tried to have it fixed but my eyes still aren't perfectly aligned. Not sure I want to endure the 3 weeks of suffering to try again, especially if there's no guarantee.

So I understand the difficulties you're describing.

[Kuarnix]

Generally you just have to communicate with your opponent about what you're trying to accomplish, and do it to their satisfaction, and vice versa. I have a lot of trouble getting people to actually charge and slam in straight lines, many many people bend (especially at the end) to fit more models around a base. I'm not perfect either, but I try pretty hard. Some of the movement and placement rules in this game are very difficult to accomplish precisely as written, so you do really have to work with your opponent.

[currentlyunknown]

If you think about it for a moment, precision to a very high degree in this game is impractical, if not impossible. Consider the simple act of measurement. Ideally, you would place a measurement device flush with the base of the intended model, flat along the table. A hook at the end would show the limit the model could move, and you'd advance to that end and stop. That's unfeasible in the game. Instead, you have to hold a tape measure, typically at some sort of viewing angle to be approximately in line with the edge of the base, then move the model with one hand while holding the other hand perfectly still, and place it, again viewing at an angle, so that the front end aligns with the end of the tape measure. That is ridiculously imprecise really.

So understand that we're already fudging, just based on basic process. In my games, I typically try to keep any fudging past this to a minimum. I hate bent tape measures. Or moving both hands when moving models. And a ton of other things. I don't cause a big stink over it. Just try to point it out and move on. And in general, my opponents report they have fun, interesting games with me. Communication, as mentioned, is key. So is learning to present things in a way that doesn't make you seem an <insert expletive>.

[KhaosSpectyr]

by the book. thats it. if its iffy, we look it up. the rules are the rules for a reason.

[Michael]

So in response to this... ... The interesting thing is, it's all of the mk I players who are so insistent that "friendly games" are just for fun and so rules can be bent. Apparently that was the attitude around our store when it was at it's old location and they were playing mk I. Since then the rest of us have joined and as we learned more about the game we wanted to make sure to get things right and so it's sort of turned into a "new vs. old" situation. (although it's mostly "middle-aged vs. old" really since most of us "new" guys have been playing for 2 years or so, but that's not the point.) So in short: you're partially right in your assumption, but maybe the roles aren't exactly what you thought. I don't know.

Huh. Well, I did have it wrong. It's been my experience in the past that "other game system" players have difficulty adjusting. It's weird that MK I veterans would show aversion to following the rules...MK I was literally all about following the rules to excruciating detail so you could wring every last bit of insanity and broken tactics out of an army.

EH, maybe they feel like their knowledge is no longer relevant, and this is some sort of passive-aggressive way of resisting re-learning the rules and possibly being shown up or "humiliated" by "the new guys" while doing so.

(That was my random psychoanalytical stab at the situation. )

But, yeah, I have seen people threatened into the "Things changed; I don't want to put forth the effort to learn again, so I'll make everyone conform to my way of doing things" mindset before. It's not fun.

Maybe show the "friendly game" players how fun it can be when everyone plays properly and the players actually bring their A-game to the table?

[genix]

I think one should always play as accurately as is reasonable. This is my mandate:

Reasonable means getting rid of the easy errors, but not taking minutes to do a simple check. Of course as the game progresses, the desire for accuracy may increase and it's quite reasonable to get a 3rd party to spend a couple minutes reviewing a dicey charge on a warcaster.

When measuring or performing a LoS check, always place your eyes such that you are able to look vertically down on the start/end points to get rid of error of parallax. This need only be a slight bend over the table next to which you are most likely standing anyway. Keep the measuring tape straight.

When moving place your finger tip (or other convenient marker) where the front arc of your model is going to end up, and then move the model to that position. Error is likely a couple of mm, but for the play environment this is acceptable.

Once you have advanced, take out the handy 2" or 0.5" plastic measuring thingy if you have it and use that to determine melee if it is in doubt. Should you be just a bit out, then accept that you are not in melee*. That is what these measuring bits are for. You have implicitly accepted them as being more accurate than using your tape measure, which is why you have them. Accept that while other parts of the game may have included error (such as all the advances leading up to this check), the error is unintentional and its extent is unproven. Don't compound it by adding error you know to be there when allowing melee for a range which is out.

However models are sometimes bumped during play, and terrain can be bumped accidentally. If a model was previously within melee range (ie: it made an attack) but suddenly is out when you check for a free strike. Just say its in melee range. Its consistent.

It's all about being as accurate as is reasonable at the time. It's also not worth causing a big fuss over, so the aforementioned is how I play but I'm fairly lenient with my opponent.

* - Unless you clearly have enough movement to continue, then just shift the model up so it is in melee range since it is your intent and you are capable of doing so.

[Deepeyes]

I only really play casual games with my friends but we make it a point to be as accurate as possible but we don't get militant over it. We allow base to base contact to count even if the models are not actually in contact if it isn't possible because of the models. My Great bears always have issues just make sure they are as close as possible.

[Revengineer]

The only problem with having your models "B2B" when they actually arent is that when you measure their next turn movement or whatever you need to remember that the base isnt where it is currently sitting, it can give a little extra range if you dont. To that end, as someone said earlier, a few spare bases can be invaluable in these situations.

[Shinji]

Are we using horseshoes or hand grenades? No? Then play by the rules. I understand the whole, 'we are just having fun'. But if you don't follow the rules then you are not being fair.

[Pirrekurr]

There is no close enough in the rules. I would never say that an opponent that his models don't have defensive line because there is a fraction of a millimeter between them. I would never say that my opponent doesn't have shield wall because he forgot to say the order. These are pretty obvious, but on the other hand I would never be angry if my opponent said they where not in b2b, or that my own models doesn't have Shield Wall because I forgot. But I would expect my opponent to play in the same way that I have done in the same game. In other words, if I give you some leeway and you don't give it back I would simple drop out of the tournament right there or pack up my models if it was a casual game. If my opponent would ask why I would say it is because he is an a****le and I have better things to do than play with the likes of him. I have never done this since I have never played against such a person, even if I have seen those kind of gamers in action. Actually it sin't very hard. When I was a kid my parents told me not to play with the mean kids, it still applies today even though I am soon to be 36 years old. This is also something I try to teach not only my own kids but every other person I know. SOmetimes it is as easy as nice people are nice people and mean people are mean people.