Are you allowed to know if movement will provoke a free strike?

[Mastershake]

Simple situation, enemy model has greater melee range than a model/unit you are activating. Upon activating the model/unit, are you allowed to know if you are engaged therefore movement away will provoke free strikes? I've heard the "only when it's relevent" arguement, but in this case, the model activating and beginning movement makes the engagement relevant at least in my view.

[quindraco]

Simple situation, enemy model has greater melee range than a model/unit you are activating. Upon activating the model/unit, are you allowed to know if you are engaged therefore movement away will provoke free strikes? I've heard the "only when it's relevent" arguement, but in this case, the model activating and beginning movement makes the engagement relevant at least in my view.

No to both questions, since you actually asked two - you aren't allowed to know if you're engaged, and you're not allowed to know if a theoretical path you would take would entail a free strike. In both situations, you have to try to do what you want to do, and it's up to your opponent to check his or her melee arcs to determine the answer.

[AJ the Ronin]

Models are allowed to check their melee range at any point during their activation, right? That will allow you to move some, check melee range, then move some more, right?

[Mastershake]

No to both questions, since you actually asked two - you aren't allowed to know if you're engaged, and you're not allowed to know if a theoretical path you would take would entail a free strike. In both situations, you have to try to do what you want to do, and it's up to your opponent to check his or her melee arcs to determine the answer.

I'm not asking to measure my opponent's melee range, I'm asking if I can make a determination on whether my model has the "in melee" status.

[quindraco]

Models are allowed to check their melee range at any point during their activation.

Technically true, but misleading and irrelevant; a) this only tells you if you're engaging, not engaged, and b) you can do it outside of activation, too.

[quindraco]

I'm not asking to measure my opponent's melee range, I'm asking if I can make a determination on whether my model has the "in melee" status.

I understand. The answer is still no.

[currentlyunknown]

I think it's a broader question:

Scenario 1
-I activate a unit. There is a model (let's say a knight exemplar) 1.99" from an enemy with reach (let's say a bane knight).
-I move the knight exemplar directly away from the bane knight 2.18". Clearly this would force a free strike. I, as the Protectorate player, would say "I wasn't engaged". You, as the Cryx player, don't have a leg to stand on at this point. There's no way to prove I was engaged at this point.

Scenario 2
-I activate a unit. Same setup as above
-I ask if I'm engaged. My opponent checks. I decide not to move, when I was fairly sure I wasn't engaged and would have moved without the measurement.

Scenario 3
-I activate a unit. Same setup as #1 above.
-I state that I'm moving directly away 2". We check to see if I'm engaged. I am. I finish my movement. I eat a free strike.

Which of the 3 scenarios above seem the fairest? I know which way I lean, but I'm curious. I think that following the rules could allow for scenario 1 or 3.

[Mastershake]

I understand. The answer is still no.

As a counterpoint, why?

If you target a model near other models, your opponent has to measure melee range to determine if any of the models are considered "in melee", why would this not trigger the same reponse since that status limits what a model can do?

[currentlyunknown]

As a counterpoint, why?

If you target a model near other models, your opponent has to measure melee range to determine if any of the models are considered "in melee", why would this not trigger the same reponse since that status limits what a model can do?

In both cases you have to measure to see if the model in question is in melee. The question is when do you measure. In the case of shooting, you choose a target. Then you check to see if engaged, then you shoot with relevant modifiers. Note that you can't choose to not shoot after finding out the model is engaged.

[Mastershake]

In both cases you have to measure to see if the model in question is in melee. The question is when do you measure. In the case of shooting, you choose a target. Then you check to see if engaged, then you shoot with relevant modifiers. Note that you can't choose to not shoot after finding out the model is engaged.

True and I accept that prior to a unit activating I shouldn't be allowed to check the status, but when a model activates, it's status becomes relevent, so why would it not be checked?

[currentlyunknown]

True and I accept that prior to a unit activating I shouldn't be allowed to check the status, but when a model activates, it's status becomes relevent, so why would it not be checked?

How is the in melee state relevant when the unit activates? The only times I can think of when it would be relevant during activation:

-if you leave melee
-if you try to shoot

For neither of those should you know before actually attempting to do either action.

[Mastershake]

How is the in melee state relevant when the unit activates? The only times I can think of when it would be relevant during activation:

-if you leave melee
-if you try to shoot

For neither of those should you know before actually attempting to do either action.

In order to leave melee you must be in melee, hence relevent.

[currentlyunknown]

Exactly. So you commit to leaving melee, and I'll tell you if you're in. Until you leave melee, it doesn't matter.

[DrFish]

I think it's a broader question:

Scenario 1
-I activate a unit. There is a model (let's say a knight exemplar) 1.99" from an enemy with reach (let's say a bane knight).
-I move the knight exemplar directly away from the bane knight 2.18". Clearly this would force a free strike. I, as the Protectorate player, would say "I wasn't engaged". You, as the Cryx player, don't have a leg to stand on at this point. There's no way to prove I was engaged at this point.

Scenario 2
-I activate a unit. Same setup as above
-I ask if I'm engaged. My opponent checks. I decide not to move, when I was fairly sure I wasn't engaged and would have moved without the measurement.

Scenario 3
-I activate a unit. Same setup as #1 above.
-I state that I'm moving directly away 2". We check to see if I'm engaged. I am. I finish my movement. I eat a free strike.

Which of the 3 scenarios above seem the fairest? I know which way I lean, but I'm curious. I think that following the rules could allow for scenario 1 or 3.

Scenario 3. Friendly games are generally different, but if you don't have reach and your opponent does (on relevant models) you are supposed to make your own judgement, and the other player is not required to share that information.

And if you try to shoot and find out you're engaged, you don't lose your action or anything. Since you can't do it, you basically never chose that option. You can't not chose to shoot because according to the rules you couldn't have chose to shoot to begin with and can make any other action you decide instead.

[Crate123]

Its the same as for CTRL area effects, you dont know if you are walking into an inhospitable ground spell until you have decided where you want your movement to end up, then you check and get affected by it. Its the same thing for melee ranges really.

[Mastershake]

Exactly. So you commit to leaving melee, and I'll tell you if you're in. Until you leave melee, it doesn't matter.

not exactly, I can't commit to leaving something I don't know I'm in. Do I just vibrate my model in place and see if a milimeter worth of movement keeps me in their melee range, then continue moving from there?

For a game based around precision of movement something this almost quick draw-esque degree of imprecision seems out of place.

What stops an opponent who doesn't think his model is in melee from just moving before you can measure or vice versa?

[Crate123]

not exactly, I can't commit to leaving something I don't know I'm in. Do I just vibrate my model in place and see if a milimeter worth of movement keeps me in their melee range, then continue moving from there?

For a game based around precision of movement something this almost quick draw-esque degree of imprecision seems out of place.

What stops an opponent who doesn't think his model is in melee from just moving before you can measure or vice versa?

Nothing, also nothing stops him from moving 7 inches instead of 6 if you are not looking. If you have an idea that your opponent might be about to draw a free strike, then you have to watch for it and dont just allow him to move his models willy nilly.

[Mastershake]

Scenario 3. Friendly games are generally different, but if you don't have reach and your opponent does (on relevant models) you are supposed to make your own judgement, and the other player is not required to share that information.

And if you try to shoot and find out you're engaged, you don't lose your action or anything. Since you can't do it, you basically never chose that option. You can't not chose to shoot because according to the rules you couldn't have chose to shoot to begin with and can make any other action you decide instead.

Should you not be allowed to know something is illegal beforehand? You can check LoS at any time to see if something is a legal target, why can't you see if you're in melee to see if an action would be legal until after you've already commited to it?

Its the same as for CTRL area effects, you dont know if you are walking into an inhospitable ground spell until you have decided where you want your movement to end up, then you check and get affected by it. Its the same thing for melee ranges really.

That's not entirely true, you should check, the CTRL range as your moving to get the distance as precise as possible.

A more relevant set-up would be eDenny feating and not knowing if your model was in her feat. I know I can't measure your control area, but for the purposes of the activating model, I need to know what it will be capable and incapable of doing.

[Crate123]

That's not entirely true, you should check, the CTRL range as your moving to get the distance as precise as possible.

Thats unfortunately not how it works, you check after doing your entire move and then you readjust. Its pretty much the same for melee range, you do your move and then you see if you get whacked.
Anyways, you do not get to check to see if you are in melee, all you can do is check your own melee range and then gauge from there.

[poeticruse]

You commit to your move. If you were in before it, and out after, you take a free strike.

If you declare a reasonable motion and your opponent measures and finds you have left melee range, you take a free strike. If you declare a motion of 1mm, or 1/16" in an attempt to force your opponent to measure melee range repeatedly, expect him to call a TO. After that it is up to the TO what happens.

Remember, warmachine is a game of cooperative resolution.

[DrFish]

During your models activation, you can measure your own melee range, and in the case of a unit you can measure the distance between the unit leader and another model in the unit up to the leaders command range. Aside from that, you can't make any other measurements outside of the warcasters control range. That's it. You can ask if your model is engaged but the opponent can ask why that's relevant and then can chose to answer. "are you moving away from my model? If yes to where?" if your answer is yes, he then measures melee range to see if you take a free strike. "Are you shooting?" if yes, that means you're done moving and if you're engaged you rewind back to what combat action you're deciding on with that model. Chances are you're out of melee range, so that model probably can't do anything unless a different model is within its melee range.

Hopefully that made sense.

[Mastershake]

You commit to your move. If you were in before it, and out after, you take a free strike.

If you declare a reasonable motion and your opponent measures and finds you have left melee range, you take a free strike. If you declare a motion of 1mm, or 1/16" in an attempt to force your opponent to measure melee range repeatedly, expect him to call a TO. After that it is up to the TO what happens.

Remember, warmachine is a game of cooperative resolution.

The question is not one of getting my opponent to repeatedly measure, but simply to check a status i.e. in melee. Could I move a model in question a distanceof 1mm or some discreet distance, just to see if a model is engaged and further movement will provoke a free strike?

I understand it is a game of cooperation and I've never turned down an opponent who's asked if they were engaged, but I have been turned down by opponents.

Being "In Melee" is also a status i.e. other rules are based upon being in melee, so it seems odd that the controlling player is not allowed to know if a model is activating under this status. I'd liken it to not being allowed to know if you're knocked down by pKreoss' feat until after you decide if you want ot sacrifice movement or action. In both cases a model may or may not have a status that will affect it's turn, but in one case activating the model is enough to know and in the other it's not and the reason why doesn't seem apparent.

[Wishing]

Remember, warmachine is a game of cooperative resolution.

This is the key statement here I think. The game is full of scenarios where you can cause a fight with your opponent by being contrary and going "technically, the rules say/don't say that I can/have to...." to create some logically unsolvable situation as is demonstrated here. In cases like these, you have to use common sense and agree with your opponent on how to play the game as you feel it is meant to be played. If you cannot do that, then you have to either just stop playing the game (if casual) or get a judge to babysit you (if tournament). It's only hard if you choose to make it hard through excessive pedantry.

[FearLord]

The question is not one of getting my opponent to repeatedly measure, but simply to check a status i.e. in melee. Could I move a model in question a distanceof 1mm or some discreet distance, just to see if a model is engaged and further movement will provoke a free strike?

I understand it is a game of cooperation and I've never turned down an opponent who's asked if they were engaged, but I have been turned down by opponents.

Being "In Melee" is also a status i.e. other rules are based upon being in melee, so it seems odd that the controlling player is not allowed to know if a model is activating under this status. I'd liken it to not being allowed to know if you're knocked down by pKreoss' feat until after you decide if you want ot sacrifice movement or action. In both cases a model may or may not have a status that will affect it's turn, but in one case activating the model is enough to know and in the other it's not and the reason why doesn't seem apparent.

You are allowed to know if you are in melee if it is relevant. Wanting to avoid a free strike or make a shot it not relevant until that is declared because being in melee does not prevent a model from declaring a ranged attack it will not be allowed to make or declaring a move that will result in taking a free strike.

[Mastershake]

You are allowed to know if you are in melee if it is relevant. Wanting to avoid a free strike or make a shot it not relevant until that is declared because being in melee does not prevent a model from declaring a ranged attack it will not be allowed to make or declaring a move that will result in taking a free strike.

"Why is taking a free strike not relevant?" I guess is a more fundamental question.

I'd like to apologize, but I've been playing this game for a while now and this has been brought up a few times and never made since either RAW or RAI any time. If it's not too much of a bother, why is determining if a model is in melee not relevant enough to warrant a check?

[tuttleboy]

Seems to me FearLord has the crux of the matter. Nothing in the rules lets you to know any distances other than your CTRL range, command range at the end of a unit's movement, and your models melee range. Everything else is a need to know basis. You need to know if that enemy model that has reach and is close to you is actually engaging you when you start your combat action and want to shoot. You need to know if you're going to eat a free strike only after you can trigger said free strike, not before. If an oppenet started to wiggle around and asking me if I still engaged his model, I'd ask him if he had finished his movement.

[Del Fuego]

I think the OP is confused on what makes it 'relevant'. Checking to see if you are engaged when declaring a ranged attack is relevant because under normal circumstances you cannot fire while engaged in melee. So you are prevented from making a shot.

Asking to see if you are engaged is irrelevant to you when deciding how far you move as being engaged does not affect the distance or direction of your movement. Therefore it is not relevant to check until you would check to see if you would take a free strike which requires the melee check which makes it relevant to actually be checked.

[Mastershake]

Seems to me FearLord has the crux of the matter. Nothing in the rules lets you to know any distances other than your CTRL range, command range at the end of a unit's movement, and your models melee range. Everything else is a need to know basis. You need to know if that enemy model that has reach and is close to you is actually engaging you when you start your combat action and want to shoot. You need to know if you're going to eat a free strike only after you can trigger said free strike, not before. If an oppenet started to wiggle around and asking me if I still engaged his model, I'd ask him if he had finished his movement.

What if your opponent simply asked you if a model starting it's activation was engaged and nothing more?

I understand Fearlord's point, I really do, and precise measurement of melee range that is not your own is not something I'm asking. I just want to know a models status when it starts an activation.

[Crate123]

You are not allowed to demand that. You can ask all you want and your opponent can deny you that knowledge or not, its up to him.

[poeticruse]

At this point you are not asking a question about the rules. You are asking about why they don't work the way you would like.

Finding out if you are currently engaged, and telling you if you'll take a free strike are not things you need to know to resolve your movement phase of your activation. They are both things yo may like to have information about ,but are not necessary to resolve anything. Once you declare a move, they become relevant, and your opponent has a chance to measure the before, and the after, and see if you take a free strike.

[Mastershake]

At this point you are not asking a question about the rules. You are asking about why they don't work the way you would like.

Finding out if you are currently engaged, and telling you if you'll take a free strike are not things you need to know to resolve your movement phase of your activation. They are both things yo may like to have information about ,but are not necessary to resolve anything. Once you declare a move, they become relevant, and your opponent has a chance to measure the before, and the after, and see if you take a free strike.

So if you declare you are making movement, your opponent has a chance to measure melee range? Since the movement rules for models don't specificy that an end point is required when you start moving it seems like this is a fair neutral groung. In other words:

-Declare moving and ask opponent if they would like to measure melee range
-If they accept, you know if your engaged
-If they decline they have no real claim to a free strike anyways

And much like asking "am I engaged" your opponent has no real right to ask "Where are you moving to" since it's something that doesn't need to be declared outside of specific circumstances. *shrugs* seems like a good way to handle the situation if an opponent refuses to measure melee range.

[solkan]

What if your opponent simply asked you if a model starting it's activation was engaged and nothing more?

I understand Fearlord's point, I really do, and precise measurement of melee range that is not your own is not something I'm asking. I just want to know a models status when it starts an activation.

I wonder if the problem is that you've heard the game described as an "open state" system but don't understand how that reconciles with the rules for measuring.

For measurement, outside of two or three areas where explicit additional permission is given, you measure only when required to do so for the application of a rule. For a nice and clear example, go look at the rules involving the enemy player's warcaster's control area.

Whether or not a model is engaged is not relevant to its performing movement, in 99% of the cases. If you happen to be in one of the "cannot move while in this model's melee range" cases, then it is necessary to measure.

Note, also, that's not what you're asking in your original post:

Upon activating the model/unit, are you allowed to know if you are engaged therefore movement away will provoke free strikes?

If your model is at point X, the state of the model at point Y would require pre-measuring. You find out if different rules apply to the model as it moves from point X to point Y when you commit to moving from point X to point Y. You do so because it will be necessary to determine where from X to Y the free strike rule applies.

[DrFish]

If you were going to take a free strike for moving then it becomes relevant where and how far (or at least in what direction) and you'd have to declare it. What you just proposed smacks of unsportsmanlike conduct.

Edit: and they have a claim to a free strike any time one ore more conditions for a free strike are met unless they actually say "I'm not going to take my free strike on you."

[poeticruse]

I answered your question, other posters have, in good faith, attempted to clarify, and you've repeatedly gone back to your stance that you're entitled to this information.

You are not.

I am now locking the thread as excessively argumentative. The answer above stands. Anything more specific than this must be resolved by individual TOs.