Drag vs Cannot Be Moved

[sepher32]

Drag ? If this weapon damages an enemy model with an equal or smaller sized base, immediately after the attack is resolved the damaged model can be pushed any distance (i.e. untilb2b) directly toward this model. After the damaged model is moved, this model can make one normal melee attack against the model pushed. After resolving this melee attack, this model can make additional melee attacks during its combat action.

If a model with drag, Galleon for instance, hits and damages a model that cannot be moved, say Stormwall, but that model is already in melee range, can the model with Drag make the melee attack?

I'm reading the after it is moved as timing rather than requirement (it does not say if the model is moved) but I thought it warranted a checkup.

[PG_Mr. Golden Deal]

It does say "against the model pushed" though, implying that if the model was not pushed, you would not get to make a melee attack against it.

[vintersbastard]

I agree with Mr. Golden Deal. There's no model that was pushed, so you have no eligible target for the free attack. Whether you can buy additional attacks is still up in the air, though.

[Sheer_Falacy]

It does say "against the model pushed" though, implying that if the model was not pushed, you would not get to make a melee attack against it.

It may follow the same rules as when a model with Beat Back kills a model - in that case a push attempt is good enough regardless of success.

[vintersbastard]

It may follow the same rules as when a model with Beat Back kills a model - in that case a push attempt is good enough regardless of success.

The difference is that Beat Back refers to timing ("after the enemy model is pushed"), while Drag specifies the eligible target for the free attack ("against the model pushed"). There's simply no identified target if the attacked model wasn't pushed.

[Saraminss]

would say no... cannot overrules must or can/may... so the Galleon can not be pushed and would not be eligible to be pushed... so no free attack.

[hausdorff space]

If a target cannot be moved, then it can still be pushed ... it just won't be moved by the push.

[Saraminss]

in. fact you seem to be correct after reading over push as a power attack. so it would seem if it shot and "pushed" it 0 inches because it cannot be moved you would still get your free attack after all.

[Rynth]

It is an important distinction that colossals/gargantuans can be pushed, they just cannot move outside of their normal movement as a result of that push. We know not moving or changing facing is a 0" advance, so why wouldn't a 0" push be a push?

[Crate123]

If a target cannot be moved, then it can still be pushed ... it just won't be moved by the push.

Well I dont have the colossals book, but going by the rules for battle engines it says that they can not be pushed thus they can be pushed whatsoever. I imagine it says the same for colossals.

[vintersbastard]

If a target cannot be moved, then it can still be pushed ... it just won't be moved by the push.

I haven't found anything in the rules that would indicate that there's a distinction between pushing something and moving it via a push.

It is an important distinction that colossals/gargantuans can be pushed, they just cannot move outside of their normal movement as a result of that push. We know not moving or changing facing is a 0" advance, so why wouldn't a 0" push be a push?

Because an advance is voluntary movement. The only instance when the 0" advance becomes relevant is for normal movement, which you either have to use (via advancing) or explicitly forfeit.

[KalarMacBran]

in. fact you seem to be correct after reading over push as a power attack. so it would seem if it shot and "pushed" it 0 inches because it cannot be moved you would still get your free attack after all.

Actually, per the Colossal's book pg. 21 "Massive: A Colossal cannot be slammed, pushed, thrown, knocked down, or made stationary."

So, Galleon would not get the free melee attack from drag and would not be able to buy additional melee attacks against another Colossal.

[Zakmahr]

Why wouldn't the Galleon be able to buy extra attacks against the Colossal it attempted to drag? The Drag ability failed, so it does not get a free melee attack, but what stops it from buying extra melee attacks?

[Rynth]

Why wouldn't the Galleon be able to buy extra attacks against the Colossal it attempted to drag? The Drag ability failed, so it does not get a free melee attack, but what stops it from buying extra melee attacks?

Unless otherwise noted a model cannot make melee and ranged attacks in the same activation. Colossals do not inherently have that ability, but Galleon can via Drag.

[SageofLodoss]

Actually, I believe clarification should be asked for this one.

This is an unusual case where we are not talking about a trigger or qualifier (IE "If the model was pushed"), but an identifier ("Against the Model pushed"). It's possible that the intent of this wording was meant to identify the target of the weapon with Drag, with the actual act of them being pushed not being a qualifier for the ability. A model with Drag that can shoot while in melee and at people he is engaged with may have thrown a little wrench into the original wording.

[KalarMacBran]

Because Galleon has neither the Weapon Platform or the Virtuoso rules that would allow it to make both ranged and melee attacks in the same activation. Colossals are still bound to the either melee or ranged in a single activation.

So, Galleon hits Stormwall with the Harpoon canon.
The attack does damage and drag triggers.
Colossals can't be pushed so the model moves know where, but is in melee already.
Here is where the train leaves the tracks. Per the Drag rule "After the damaged model is moved, this model an make one normal melee attack against the model pushed." Well, we know that a colossal can not be pushed, not just the movement. So Stormwall is not a legal target for the free strike.
The rule then goes on to say "After resolving this melee attack, this model can make additional melee attacks during its combat action." Now the Infernals might say differently, but from what I'm reading you can't buy additional melee attacks since the Free strike was never resolved.

[vintersbastard]

Actually, per the Colossal's book pg. 21 "Massive: A Colossal cannot be slammed, pushed, thrown, knocked down, or made stationary."

Thanks for the quote, much appreciated.

So, Galleon would not get the free melee attack from drag and would not be able to buy additional melee attacks against another Colossal.

As noted in post #3, that's being checked.

[sepher32]

Where's demon Tux when you need him?

[Valander]

Answer is:

The question boils down to two main scenarios:


1. Shoot model w/ ranged weapon that has drag, and destroy it. So, no push, and model is not in melee range. Can additional melee attacks be purchased?
2. Shoot model w/ ranged weapon that has drag. Do damage, but do not destroy. Target model has rule preventing it from being moved (e.g. Colossal). Can additional melee attacks be purchased?


The answer is "no" in both cases, because "After the damaged model is moved, this model can make one normal melee attack against the model pushed" cannot be done in either 1 or 2. So, it follows that you cannot make an additional attack "after resolving this melee attack," because that attack never happened.

Closing this one, and leaving the most recent open for follow up for a bit:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...annot-be-Moved