Does the Reiver/Black Spot waterfall actually work?

[Rez]

So this is something that people have been using with eHex since he came out, see it recommended all the time. Model A kills a guy, creates a Black Spot attack which contributes to Model Bs shot. If that kills, Model B gets a BS shot, and the waterfall continues.

Problem is, the wording for Black Spot states "immediately after the attack is resolved it can make one additional melee or ranged attack". So if you have to take the shot immediately, you cant declare another model as leading the attack, as then you have skipped the BS shot and moved to the next models combat action.

Has everyone been playing this wrong? Am I right in thinking it cant actually work?

[Rynth]

It works.
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...+spot+combined


Strange as it sounds "immediately" means very little in the rules terminology of this game. In the context of Black Spot it lets you know that the next attack is an additional attack, which can normally only happen after your initial attacks or via other special rules, not that it happens so quickly that nothing else can be done.

CMA and CRA can feel wrong with models who have multiple attacks since it can feel like you are moving past one model's combat action to go to another's just to add the CxA bonus from the first model, but it is all on the up and up because, IIRC, the rules say something along the lines of CxA models ignore the one model finishes before the next begins rule.

[various]

It works extremely well. What confused the hell out of me was the interaction of Black Spot and Thresher!!

[Jaradakar]

Hmm that is not how I've been playing my Reivers -- going to have to give that some thought.

[Silopolis]

I don't know why I feel this way, but waterfalling in general just feels like a cheat to me. No judgments, but I feel bad doing anything that I think might make my opponent question me and force us to look up the rules online. Like getting the "free" mount attack by "slamming" with Long Riders that are already in melee range of a target.

Maybe I'll change my tune once someone does it to me. But no one I know ever does it, and it seems like a tactic you'd have to be on these forums to even know about.

[kmfdm]

Can someone explain how it works? I saw a graphic on the other page which made sense how you could you get 2 CRA attacks out of 3 troops but is it possible to generate even more attacks?

I just don't see how the extra attack can be used for anything but to generate another CRA but by doing so you are using the activation of the participating troopers?

[Rynth]

Venators A B and C.
Venator A shoots and kills a black spot target. This gives Venator A an additional attack. Venator a uses his extra attack to combine with Venator B. Venatot B leads the attack.
Venator B, with CRA bonus from Venator A, shoots and kills a black spot target. Since Venator B was the attacker he gets an additional attack. Venator B uses his additional attack to combine with Venator C. Venator C leads the attack.
Venator C, with CRA bonus from Venator B, shoots and kills a black spot target. This gives Venator C an additional attack.
Venator C shoots. Even if his shot kills another black spot target he will not get an additional attack because black spots don't make more black spots.

Normally troopers have to finish their combat action before the next trooper can begin theirs. The Combined Ranged and Combined Melee rules do not follow that rule and as such their combat activations can be dispersed as you wish. If you wanted Venators A, B and C could each shoot and kill a black spot target then combine their black spot attacks on a fourth model.

Any more questions?

[Junn Khan]

Can someone explain how it works? I saw a graphic on the other page which made sense how you could you get 2 CRA attacks out of 3 troops but is it possible to generate even more attacks?

I just don't see how the extra attack can be used for anything but to generate another CRA but by doing so you are using the activation of the participating troopers?

I really don't see it as that useful. To get the full bang for the buck you need blackspotted infantry that are hard enough to kill to justify a CRA but can be killed reliable by one trooper. Since the damage is +2 realistically you're hoping for something that you need an 8-9 to wound from a single trooper.

[Skid64]

The way I understand this, you will get the most number of attacks out of CRA combinations of two, but you are not restricted to it. As long as the indiviudal model has not participated in a CRA before you could combine more.

[Hasten]

I really don't see it as that useful. To get the full bang for the buck you need blackspotted infantry that are hard enough to kill to justify a CRA but can be killed reliable by one trooper. Since the damage is +2 realistically you're hoping for something that you need an 8-9 to wound from a single trooper.

Or you can just start your "waterfall" with a 2-man CRA, which is how I've done it with Karax and CMAs. With, say, 6 troopers firing you would normally get 3 CRAs. With the Black Spot waterfall tactic, you're getting 5 CRAs even starting with a CRA, so it's very much worth doing. You're only losing that first trooper's non-CRA attack by doing it this way. The most attacks you could get from those 6 troopers is trying to kick the waterfall chain off with a single trooper's attack, then you get 5 CRAs, then the last BS additional attack from the last trooper (so 2 1-man attacks and 5 CRAs, versus 1 1-man attack and 5 CRAs).

-H

[Alphatwitch]

works great agains bane knights, 5's to hit and 5's to kill

[Jaradakar]

I really don't see it as that useful. To get the full bang for the buck you need blackspotted infantry that are hard enough to kill to justify a CRA but can be killed reliable by one trooper. Since the damage is +2 realistically you're hoping for something that you need an 8-9 to wound from a single trooper.

Against infantry it's usually less about the damage and more about the increase to hit -- Rat 5 base is not great so getting up to Rat 7 means you are much more likely to hit.

[Junn Khan]

Or you can just start your "waterfall" with a 2-man CRA, which is how I've done it with Karax and CMAs. With, say, 6 troopers firing you would normally get 3 CRAs. With the Black Spot waterfall tactic, you're getting 5 CRAs even starting with a CRA, so it's very much worth doing. You're only losing that first trooper's non-CRA attack by doing it this way. The most attacks you could get from those 6 troopers is trying to kick the waterfall chain off with a single trooper's attack, then you get 5 CRAs, then the last BS additional attack from the last trooper (so 2 1-man attacks and 5 CRAs, versus 1 1-man attack and 5 CRAs).

-H

I was mostly basing my argument on practical applications on a regular basis. Sure sometimes you might have ironfleshed IFP, DEF 16 ARM 18 requiring blackspot and a CRA to hit and kill reliably, but that's an infrequent event in my neck of the woods.

[Jaradakar]

Hmm I seem to encounter Raiders (Cryx) any many other defense 14 models. Raiders typically have a UA that brings there defense up to 16 Vs ranged attacks so even with black spot you're still shooting at defense 14. Rat 5 means you are only hitting on 9's so you are much better off to CRA to make that a 7 to hit. For me I find I CRA in pairs of 2 more often then not.

[Spume]

works great agains bane knights, 5's to hit and 5's to kill

This has been done to my Terminus list, it wasn't pretty.

[sourclams]

Aren't Bane Knights 12/16? So assuming blackspot, 5s/7s or 3s/5s with 2man CRAs?