How much would you pay for a solid warcaster?

[Navarp]

Why on Earth would they do this?

Using the terms as you've defined them, objective balance is actually a mostly worthless ideal. Subjective balance across the set of all players is the only thing they have any reason to care about; subjective balance governs how much fun players have, and accordingly, how much money PP makes. I see plenty of reason to try to determine subjective balance before releasing a model, but no reason at all to investigate objective balance.

Because subjective balance should be related to objective balance.

Like I said before the ideal for Privateer Press is that their models should have an objective balance of 5, but a subjective balance of 7 (So everyone believes that their models are really awesome, despite the fact that they are balanced.)

[bouncymischa]

And I mean that you deserve to be ridiculed for even posting this.

I dunno, that does look rather like a personal insult to me... <.<

[Navarp]

You may not be personally attacking him but you are being very condescending and all your statements toward him are written in a diminutive manner.

You may be a scientific writer but all you seem to be doing lately is having arguments that can barley be considered on topic.

It really doesn't make you look smart at all.

I am sorry if I have come off condescending and diminutive. I have become frustrated about a few things (not just the Mountain King) in the Hordes/Warmachine world and some politics on these boards.

I will try to be mindful of my tone however and post less for a short while.

I agree that I have let emotion colour my posts lately in a negative way. I am very passionate about this game, and lately it has gotten the better of me.

I have been a bit choleric lately however.

I will attempt to become more phlegmatic in my posting from here on out.

[quindraco]

Because subjective balance should be related to objective balance.

Like I said before the ideal for Privateer Press is that their models should have an objective balance of 5, but a subjective balance of 7 (So everyone believes that their models are really awesome, despite the fact that they are balanced.)

But why?

Imagine 10 models, named A through J. A has objective balance 1, B has 2, and so on; J has 10. All have subjective balance 7 (chosen because you think it's optimal and we're using your scale, so presumably you're correct). On what basis are you claiming that E is a better model than A or J? Players will enjoy both equally, and both will generate the same amount of revenue. What difference are you concerned about?

[Navarp]

I dunno, that does look rather like a personal insult to me... <.<

Again this is horribly off topic, and should have been handled via PM, but not a personal insult, a critique of an action. Much like how you might laugh at your otherwise immaculate buddy for accidentally getting mustard on their white shirt.

[Navarp]

But why?

Imagine 10 models, named A through J. A has objective balance 1, B has 2, and so on; J has 10. All have subjective balance 7 (chosen because you think it's optimal and we're using your scale, so presumably you're correct). On what basis are you claiming that E is a better model than A or J? Players will enjoy both equally, and both will generate the same amount of revenue. What difference are you concerned about?

Because lets say player alpha makes a list with models A through E and plays player beta (who uses models F through J).

Player beta should win those games more than he loses because his models are objectively better despite the opinion of either player alpha or player beta.

[quindraco]

Because lets say player alpha makes a list with models A through E and plays player beta (who uses models F through J).

Player beta should win those games more than he loses because his models are objectively better despite the opinion of either player alpha or player beta.

Correct[1]. So what?

Privateer Press is not interested in who wins more than anyone else. They're interested in who has the most fun.

[1] Possibly incorrect, actually, based on your terms, since players need to be able to wrap their heads around their own models in order to make them shine. Remember how we're defining the two terms, here; player beta is using 3 models who are better than he thinks they are, and both are using models which are worse than they think they are. I am not convinced you can accurately predict win rates given this, but I am willing to listen to you explain why you think you can.

[Navarp]

Correct. So what?

Privateer Press is not interested in who wins more than anyone else. They're interested in who has the most fun.

True, but how long would it take players alpha and beta to figure out the coloration between their games. Do you think that they would maintain the belief that models A through J were all balanced to a 7 after playing several games? They might even trade sides of the table and play more games to try to control for player skill.

[West996]

Ok, so lets get back on topic, I actually had to look back to the title of the thread to figure out what we should be talking about.

It was hard for me to follow but the OP is asking how much we would pay for a good caster should they be released in large base or even in unit format.

Now so far there has only been one large based caster announced, and I think 2 that will be leading their own groups. Personally I think this is really cool stuff.

Are we concerned about balancing such models? It certainly will be a challenge. How will they do it? Play with the War Jack points? Fewer spells? Or is that even a topic for another thread?

[quindraco]

Ok, so lets get back on topic, I actually had to look back to the title of the thread to figure out what we should be talking about.

It was hard for me to follow but the OP is asking how much we would pay for a good caster should they be released in large base or even in unit format.

Now so far there has only been one large based caster announced, and I think 2 that will be leading their own groups. Personally I think this is really cool stuff.

Are we concerned about balancing such models? It certainly will be a challenge. How will they do it? Play with the War Jack points? Fewer spells? Or is that even a topic for another thread?

You mean huge - there are a lot of large based warcaster/locks, at least 1 per faction. In terms of balance, remember that base size is a *downside*. A huge based warwhatever is a major liability, and their rules have to justify said liability, not the other way around. Otherwise everything will have LOS to your most important piece for the entire game and you'll lose pretty quickly.

[West996]

You mean huge - there are a lot of large based warcaster/locks, at least 1 per faction. In terms of balance, remember that base size is a *downside*. A huge based warwhatever is a major liability, and their rules have to justify said liability, not the other way around. Otherwise everything will have LOS to your most important piece for the entire game and you'll lose pretty quickly.

Yes you're right. 'Huge' base not large.

Remember though that large bases have been a liability with our current casters, as for huge bases so far they have come with just as many bonuses as it has disadvantages. Can not be moved, disrupted yadda yadda..

So I would say there is a good change that a huge based caster will get similar advantages just for having that huge base.

[quindraco]

Yes you're right. 'Huge' base not large.

Remember though that large bases have been a liability with our current casters, as for huge bases so far they have come with just as many bonuses as it has disadvantages. Can not be moved, disrupted yadda yadda..

So I would say there is a good change that a huge based caster will get similar advantages just for having that huge base.

None of those are inherent to the base size, sir. Battle Engines and Colossals both have special rules that only apply to them, and would not apply to a warcaster/lock on a huge base unless specifically ruled in, as with lLylyth, who has the Battle Engine subtype.

[West996]

None of those are inherent to the base size, sir. Battle Engines and Colossals both have special rules that only apply to them, and would not apply to a warcaster/lock on a huge base unless specifically ruled in, as with lLylyth, who has the Battle Engine subtype.

Indeed you're right.

I didn't mean to say they would get the same bonus because of the base size alone. I just think it is reasonable to speculate that huge base war casters will get similar bonuses of their own

[MadJack]

I didn't make a personal attack against you, nor did I insult you. Here is the difference.

"You are a ridiculous person" is a personal attack. (I didn't say this.)
"This [analogy] is ridiculous" is a critique of a statement. (I did say this.)

Allow me to refresh your memory:

You are a troll.

The fact that I'm pointing out flaws in what you posted does not make me a troll. That's what I'm referring to. I don't think reminders to keep things civil are ever out of place.

Also I wasn't even suggesting polling every member of the Warmachine community. (That is a straw man.) I simply said that polling a large number of players. Not even random players, but players who actually playtested (or just played with/against) the model over the course of several games.

You're still missing my point. No matter how you select the players to poll, your poll will inevitably include people who have no real understanding of the plusses and minuses of the model (although they may have a fiercely held opinion on it). Your poll will also inevitably include people who play in vastly different metas, and who therefore have entirely different frames of reference. How can you hope to come up with an objective result without somehow adjusting for this? How is it even possible to adjust for this?

[MadJack]

Time to take this thread off the rails..

Who needs a 120mm epic karchev when you could have a 240mm epic karchev!



COMRADE VOLTRON! (they already have some of the voltron rights)

This is by far the most awesome thing I've seen in a long time. Now we need somebody to build this in real life.

[Mod_Gemini]

I will issue this warning once and once only, keep it civil in here.

[Navarp]

[t]here are a lot of large based warcaster/locks, at least 1 per faction.

Do trolls have a large based Warlock?

[PG_maxsterling]

Do trolls have a large based Warlock?

No, but they don't have a small based warlock either. I would totally be more excited for a small based warlock more than a large based one in Trolls.

[West996]

No, but they don't have a small based warlock either. I would totally be more excited for a small based warlock more than a large based one in Trolls.

How about a small based troll 'unit' caster. Kind of like the Coven in design but with the look and feel of WHFB Gobos.

[PG_maxsterling]

How about a small based troll 'unit' caster. Kind of like the Coven in design but with the look and feel of WHFB Gobos.

we are already getting that and its not quite the same, epic Grim will still be on a medium base.

[Wishing]

Using the terms as you've defined them, objective balance is actually a mostly worthless ideal. Subjective balance across the set of all players is the only thing they have any reason to care about; subjective balance governs how much fun players have, and accordingly, how much money PP makes. I see plenty of reason to try to determine subjective balance before releasing a model, but no reason at all to investigate objective balance.

Not to mention that there is no way for them to investigate objective balance, since the only way to measure it is to poll people for their views on subjective balance.

[MadJack]

I will issue this warning once and once only, keep it civil in here.

Well, Navarp apologized to me, and I apologized for coming off like I was trolling (which was never my intent), so I think the 2 of us are good.

[Antigonus]

You mean huge - there are a lot of large based warcaster/locks, at least 1 per faction. In terms of balance, remember that base size is a *downside*. A huge based warwhatever is a major liability, and their rules have to justify said liability, not the other way around. Otherwise everything will have LOS to your most important piece for the entire game and you'll lose pretty quickly.

Out of interest, as of the end of COLOSSALS, point me in the direction of the large-based 'casters for Mercs, Minions and Trollbloods...

[Drzombieface]

No, but they don't have a small based warlock either. I would totally be more excited for a small based warlock more than a large based one in Trolls.

They're going to have small based models as part of the new Warlock Unit in The Hunters Grim (Epic Grim Angus)

[Wishing]

But the warlock himself will stay medium, at least I presume that his pygmy friends don't have caster powers themselves.