Kreoss, out of the Order?

[Gavriel]

So according to this thread:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...Exemplar-or-No

Kreoss3 is not an Exemplar and is not intended to be. Now that's just odd. The only thing he could possibly gain from being an exemplar is access to Gravus' no knockdown bubble, and you'd think that they'd be cool with that given that the two of them are both mounted knights and all.

Discuss

[jandrese]

Maybe Gravus is jealous because being an Exemplar Leader on a Horse was supposed to be HIS job.

[Sanguinary Dan]

I can't say I like that ruling. But then again I'm not sure what all the ramifications of Exemplar-ness might be on him.

At least jandrese's post reminded me that I want to pick up Gravus this week.

[Soulblighter]

Gravus giving him no-knockdown is really the only ramification of him being an Exemplar.

Ironically it would appear being knocked down is whats going to kill Kreoss3 the most.

[Alzer]

No-Knockdown AND No-Stationary. That's two face-crushing status effects he's now vulnerable to.

I wonder if Gravus will become Grand Exemplar now?

It's kinda sad because Gravus BELONGS in an Intercessor Kreoss list, just so you can have all the horsies!
On the other side of the coin, you can just mask IK with Vengers that are immune to KD/ Stationary which is almost as good.

[Tyras]

As I posted in the ruling thread:

That seems odd to me. Why? Who leads the Exemplars now? Has the position of Grand Exemplar been passed to Gravus? If so can we expect an epic version of him?

[Gavriel]

What's even more confusing is that you can still just give him no KD/Stationary with the Covenant. Is having two spd 8 horses running around immune to KD really that bad?

[The Revelator]

The thread has been closed. I wonder if we will get any further clarification since one of the last things Valander said was that he was still checking further details.

[Other_Mike]

The thread has been closed. I wonder if we will get any further clarification since one of the last things Valander said was that he was still checking further details.

My guess is that he will go back and check with the developers for intent and he will come back and rule Kreoss3 as an Exemplar and reverse the mistake.

Other Mike

[The Revelator]

My guess is that he will go back and check with the developers for intent and he will come back and rule Kreoss3 as an Exemplar and reverse the mistake.

Other Mike

That would be great. I was just thinking, with the thread being closed if this will be a case of out of sight, out of mind.

[SteakAndSpirits]

There may be a parallel between Kreoss and the Blackfrost Shard. Ultimately reason won out confirming that yes, the Blackfrost Shard were not just a Nyss Character Unit, but they were a Blighted Nyss Character Unit. IIRC, at the time it was confirmed that they were an invalid choice for certain tiers, but were subsequently addressed.

Obviously, as mentioned above, the problem isn't KD immunity -- As the Covenant can provide it without restrictions. And it would be weird to specifically and intetionally limit synergy between Kreoss and Gravus.

-s&s

[Soulblighter]

Obviously, as mentioned above, the problem isn't KD immunity -- As the Covenant can provide it without restrictions.

Yeah but the Covenant is slow and doesnt screen Kreoss3. Gravus is fast and can screen Kreoss3. Gravus is way more ideal.

[SteakAndSpirits]

Yeah but the Covenant is slow and doesnt screen Kreoss3. Gravus is fast and can screen Kreoss3. Gravus is way more ideal.

That certainly is something, though that still isn't the case of it being KD immunity. At that point, it becomes about fast, screening, and KD immunity.

-s&s

[Blackraine]

Game mechanic-wise, I couldn't care less... what I care about is: if Kreoss isn't the Grand Exemplar, what is he now?! I wish I had a colossals book!

[Bishop84]

Kreoss3 is not an Exemplar and is not intended to be.

Intention has yet to be confirmed. Valander said he's not an Exemplar as written, but the last thing he said is "But still checking further details... " which means he's likely checking intention. As I understand it, the Hyperion has been declared a Myrmidon despite the fact that nothing in its write-up says so.

Now granted, not being an exemplar only matters for Gravus' effect, but it is a HUGE effect and can seriously matter in a game.

[Menoth's Bishop]

What's even more confusing is that you can still just give him no KD/Stationary with the Covenant. Is having two spd 8 horses running around immune to KD really that bad?

Potentially 7 horses (12 with tier kreoss3 plus light cavalry)

[gold_penguin]

what I care about is: if Kreoss isn't the Grand Exemplar, what is he now?!

He's the Intercessor

[Soulblighter]

Incestor Kreoss

[oconnor0]

He's the Intercessor

What position/whatever is Intercessor?

[Draznar]

It is an ancient protectorate title that hasn't been used in a few centuries that Severius has reinstated. As Intercessor, Kreoss's authority extends to even outside the Exemplars, its like the Interim Heirarch. (Or 'Hand of the King' if you want a Game of Thrones Reference). Kreoss speaks with the Heirarch's voice / authority, anything Kreoss says / commands is the same as if Severius commanded it.

In addition, Severius knows he will die soon(whether by age or in the coming Crusade). When he does, there will be chaos/dissension among the Protectorate (Hello, Feora!) and the Intercessor has to hold the Protectorate together until a new new Heirarch can be chosen.

[Spideredd]

Ninja'd while checking by Draznar , but his reply is better.

[Spideredd]

He speaks with the Heirarch's voice / authority, and when Severius dies he is charged with leading the Protectorate until a new Heirarch can be chosen.

Do you think Severius has gone south then?

[Hashmal]

That is very cool. Can't wait to get the Colossals book.

[Draznar]

If I recall the Colossals fluff correctly , Severius / Kreoss are both heading north.

[Spideredd]

If I recall correctly, Severius / Kreoss are both heading north.

Last I read, this was the case, but why would Severius name Kreoss Intercessor if they were both heading north?
It makes sense to me that either Cygnar or Feora have been causing problems back home and he's planning to go back to fix it.

[PG_KestrelM1]

Last I read, this was the case, but why would Severius name Kreoss Intercessor if they were both heading north?
It makes sense to me that either Cygnar or Feora have been causing problems back home and he's planning to go back to fix it.

He's also just planning for his eventual demise. Dude's pushing 90 years old in the current fluff.

[Craaag]

Dumb rule. I guess they finally caught up to him and tested his . Such a scandal when they realized all this time he was boosting with Focus.

[Snipafist]

Dumb rule. I guess they finally caught up to him and tested his . Such a scandal when they realized all this time he was boosting with Focus.

*insert manufactured outrage and accusations*
You mean Kreoss has been focus-doping this whole time? And when they caught it, they promoted him?!? This is unconscionable!

[Tarma]

I think that on the fluff side, lKreoss is still an Exemplar. It is possible, that his new rank, not give hin much time, to lead the Exemplar Orden, and there has therefore to be insert a kind of "Vice Grand Exemplar", to do that.

After what I know, both Severius and Kreoss is still in the north. That is Vindictus there is heading south.

Tarma

[Sygerrik]

Actually, it's very important to his fluff that he's no longer an Exemplar. The purpose of the Intercessor title is to keep the individual branches of the Protectorate military from civil war if and when the Hierarch dies. That never used to be a problem but with the Protectorate military grown so huge, it's a possibility. He has to be above and outside the Exemplar order because his job is to balance the Exemplars, the Flameguard, the Order of the Fist, the Order of the Wall, the Zealot hordes, and so on and prevent any of them from gaining ascendance over any other. He can't belong to any one branch because it would compromise his impartiality.

[Wulfy]

I think it stinks. I believe they did it simply as a reinforcement of the rules as written stance. Which, I believe, they break all the time with occasional, "Oh, that is not what the developers intended," crap. Well, they had an oversight and left exemplar off his title and his card, don't pretend you like you intended it all along. Just come out and say, he is still an Exemplar. It is BS, going to bother the hell out of me every time I play him. Plus, it is terrible synergy. You can either have Gravis to block KD for all your exemplar troops, minus Kreoss, OR, have Covenant to stop KD for everyone, kinda takes away a major incentive for Gravis. Just bad synergy all together. Give us our first mounted caster then take away his synergies. Bad planning, bad execution, and as I said, it is going to piss me off every time I play him.

Sad part is, it is obvious to me they just F&%ked it up. Now they will spend a year trying to convince people they intended it all along so they do not look like ****** bags. Well, it is too late. You want to fix it, then admit it was an oversight and say he is still and Exemplar. Any other answer just loses more credibility.

[SnakeEyes]

Actually, it's very important to his fluff that he's no longer an Exemplar.

This. ^

And if anyone tries to rationalize why he all of a sudden isn't an Exemplar and doesn't get Exemplar bonuses, first try to rationalize why Gravus's abilities would only affect/be triggered by Exemplars, and not all fellow Menites.

[Soulblighter]

clearly gravus is racist against non-exemplar

[GrandMcMuf]

I see what's going on. Severius is trying to drive a wedge between Gravus and Kreoss! That bastard. I'm working on a buddy-exemplar script right now and he's going to ruin it. "Kreoss and Gravus:Horse friends"

[Lanz]

I can see it going either way. In a strictly rule sense I'd rather have the option of gaining Gravus's effects on Kreoss, and in a strictly fluff sense Kreoss3 looks far, far too exemplar to not be one.

If he's not, I can kinda see why, since he leads the entire protectorate military now, not just the exemplar.

[Matthaeus]

I've just read the Protectorate fluff entry in the book. Sygerrik has it right.
The Intercessor is the commander in chief of Menite armed forces; he stands above all the military orders as the hierarch's champion. It would be hard to justify for him to hold supreme and impartial authority while still belonging to a particular organisation.

In the book, Severius speaks of his own inevitable end and foresees that it will be accompanied by unrest; as each order has become an army in itself, he wants to prevent a clash between (direct quote) "the Knights Exemplar and the Temple Flameguard". And so he restored the ancient title of Intercessor to keep the whole military under control during uncertain times.

That being said, he still acts and looks like a knight. Whether fluff-wise or crunch-wise, he still feels more in his element when leading Exemplars* . No mention is made of a replacement for the position of Grand Exemplar. So the door might be considered still open.

Bottom line : it doesn't look like an oversight.


*Not related, but I'm a bit confused with this word. Is it used as an adjective or a noun, in the case of "Knights Exemplar" ?

[Spaero]

I know I'm late to the party, but none of the warcaster models are listed as part of the sub-factions they're part of in the fluff. Thyra's not a Flameguard or Daughter of the Flame, Amon isn't part of the Order of the Fist, Sevvy and Vindictus aren't scrutators, etc. That's why any of their Elite Cadre rules have to be duplicated if they want to benefit from them. Apparently all warcasters are vanilla faction models so far as the rules are concerned, regardless of their fluff.

[regleant]

Kreoss1 and Kreoss2 are Exemplar models. I think this only comes up with Gravus' ability. Feora1 and Feora2 are indeed Flameguard models, but I don't think there is a model that affects Flameguard as a whole.

[wazatdingder]

Has it not occurred to anyone that they may have took away the exemplar status cause they were sick of the "no weapon master" whining?

[Lanz]

*Not related, but I'm a bit confused with this word. Is it used as an adjective or a noun, in the case of "Knights Exemplar" ?

It's a title, so I'd imagine it could be used interchangeably.

I know I'm late to the party, but none of the warcaster models are listed as part of the sub-factions they're part of in the fluff. Thyra's not a Flameguard or Daughter of the Flame, Amon isn't part of the Order of the Fist, Sevvy and Vindictus aren't scrutators, etc. That's why any of their Elite Cadre rules have to be duplicated if they want to benefit from them. Apparently all warcasters are vanilla faction models so far as the rules are concerned, regardless of their fluff.

This occured to me as well, earlier today. It's not just the protectorate either. Sorscha isn't Winter Guard, Caine isn't a Gun Mage, etc, etc. I think Kreoss has been the only warcaster in the game to belong to an order that other models occupy, and share rules with them based on that keyword.