Working with Conquest + Harkevich

[TarlSS]

I've been playing Conquest + Harkevich lately and I've come to a stand still.

I'm not really sure Harkevich really gets his bang for the buck out of the conquest- sure, ARM 23 is great, but the lack of infantry support is seriously an issue.

Looking at the Conquest, the main asset seems less and less to be the Main Gun, and more and more it's ability to slam/throw smaller jacks with impunity. For that, you need focus, and Hark really doesn't have that much to throw around.

Does anyone have tips for using the Conquest with Hark?
Usually I find myself being bogged down from the model's sheer size. On the plus side, with Hark you CAN actually bait the enemy into throwing a majority of their army at your colossal, only to have it still ticking after repairs are done.

[OrsusSmash]

First question: What point size are you playing? I find Harkevich is a fair bit harder to build for at 35, just because you want a decent battlegroup with him, and that tends to evaporate your points quickly.

Second question: What list are you running currently? That'll frame the discussion a little better.

Some general thoughts though:

I kind of agree, Conquest with Harkevich isn't a magical combination. It's still a lot of eggs in one basket, and you still need to play carefully and smartly for it work well. I do think Harkevich brings some very nice things along for Conquest, and they do work well together.

My preferred setup for Harkevich has been a 3 warjack battlegroup, usually Spriggan + Black Ivan + 9 point 'jack (Decimator or Demolisher, waiting for the latter to release.) With that setup, it's pretty easy to swap Conquest in for the Spriggan + 9 point 'jack, and then keep the rest of the army intact (since I was bringing Mechaniks and focus multipliers like Sylas + Koldun Lord anyways.)

I think that even with Conquest, Broadsides is still a really corner case spell. I think its much more effective to play a "bully" game with Harkevich: use the enhanced mobility provided by Escort and Field Marshall to get your warjacks into a good position, then use your feat to tilt attrition in your favor. Ranged attacks should be used encourage the enemy to engage, or if a juicy situation presents itself, but I don't think that Harkevich can work with ranged attacks as plan A.

I find that if you're not casting Broadsides, Harkevich usually has enough focus to fuel the one warjack he really needs to a turn, and if you have Sylas + Koldun Lord around, you can keep his battlegroup humming pretty well (5 focus for allocation + 1 from the Koldun Lord.)

What is really nice with Broadsides, however, is out of activation shooting and the shenanigans it allows for. For instance, in my game with Harkevich and Conquest, I almost pulled out a win when I double-handed threw Joe at Caine2 (couldn't roll an 11 on 3d6, even with a re-roll!) The collateral damage from a Conquest power attack is an 18 damage roll! Follow that up with a Broadsides shot from the Main Guns and whatever else you have around (Ivan, Demolisher,) and any 'caster relying on DEF is going to explode. That's something only Harkevich can pull off, and it's surprisingly effective since it's self-contained (i.e. you can throw your own model to pull it off, and it's really doable with Fortune on the double handed throw attack.)

Regarding infantry support: Harkevich relies on his battlegroup to be his linebackers. They're going to be the models getting their hands (claws?) dirty, and they're going to be responsible for a lot of the heavy lifting. The good news is: with the innate hitting power of Khador maybe a damage buff (Ragman is really good with Conquest, due to his massive base,) and Harkevich's feat, you can usually tilt the "heavy vs. heavy" fight in your favor.

So, I almost exclusively build his infantry for anti-infantry. And since I usually don't have many points to toss around, the best options are usually WGI + UA + Joe, or Ternion (possibly two units.) Sprays are some of the most effective anti-infantry tech out there, and it complements the blast damage you'll probably be tossing out with your battlegroup. If your infantry can mulch out their infantry (and their support, if you're lucky!) that leaves you with a heavy on heavy fight, which is what you want. If you end up fighting another dense army and you don't need to mulch infantry, you always have some models you can toss in the way to screen your battlegroup or contest objectives.

Once I get Conquest in hand, he and Harkevich are going on tour. I actually like his theme list for the benefits its brings, but I do miss the focus efficiency and other buffs you can get with a general list. Still, I think it's worth trying out, especially since most Khador theme lists are kind of terrible.

For reference, here's the first list I'm going to try out (hopefully this will help the discussion as well):

Tier 4: Wolf Pack
50 points, 27 models

Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf

* Black Ivan
* Conquest
* Spriggan

4 Battle Mechaniks 2 points

* Battle Mechanik Officer

Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich
10 Winter Guard Infantry

* Winter Guard Officer & Standard

Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Winter Guard Mortar Crew

Additional Rules

Add +1 to your starting game roll.
Friendly models/units can begin the game affected by Harkevich's upkeep spells.
For each warjack in Harkevich's battlegroup, place a heavy wreck marker.

Note: this list could pretty easily be adapted to a general 50 point list by dropping the Mortars. You only end up gaining 3 points in the trade, but you could easily turn those into Sylas + WG WA, or any number of other tweaks that would work well.

[TarlSS]

Interesting.
My list was as follows

Conquest
Black Ivan
Full Kayazy
Full IFP
Min Mechanics
Sylys

I found that if you're bringing 2 jacks, the Koldun lord is not as effective as it could be due to power booster unable to be placed on a model that already has focus..But maybe adding an extra warjack will bring the list the umph it needs..

[OrsusSmash]

Go big or go home.

I honestly think that if you're not running a big battlegroup with Harkevich, you're better off running another 'caster. Harkevich doesn't support infantry well at all - Fortune is a great buff, but it's all offense, and our infantry tend to benefit more from defensive buffs - and it just doesn't feel like it plays into his game plan.

That said, I think that with how expensive Conquest is, it's understandable to go with a two warjack battlegroup. Conquest is roughly two warjacks glued together, and it's easier to have Harkevich fuel Conquest + one warjack vs. 3 warjacks.

I've tried IFP with Harkevich, and I didn't much care for it. Even with the Black Dragon UA, IFP want some kind of support on the way in (even Ternion clouds can make the difference,) so they're kind of on their own with Hark. They can do alright like that in some lists, but just as often they end up outclassed if they don't get a buff somewhere. Plus, you don't really need their anti-heavy tech with Harkevich, if you've stacked the battlegroup.

Kayazy are always solid though. They have some bad match ups, but they're consistently great at getting themselves where they need to be without any 'caster attention, and they're beefy enough on the offense that they can deal with a wide variety of targets. The best part is that they're very good anti-infantry infantry, so it complements Harkevich's list build.

If you wanted to keep that list as-is, you could easily swap the IFP for WGI (unit + UA + Joe is the same cost,) and probably have a more flexible, self sufficient infantry base. Alternatively, you could swap one unit out for another warjack to give it more kick.

Whatever you choose, good luck! I look forward to hearing the results.

[sliganian]

For reference, here's the first list I'm going to try out (hopefully this will help the discussion as well):

Tier 4: Wolf Pack
50 points, 27 models

Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf

* Black Ivan
* Conquest
* Spriggan

4 Battle Mechaniks 2 points

* Battle Mechanik Officer

Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich
10 Winter Guard Infantry

* Winter Guard Officer & Standard

Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Winter Guard Mortar Crew

Additional Rules

Add +1 to your starting game roll.
Friendly models/units can begin the game affected by Harkevich's upkeep spells.
For each warjack in Harkevich's battlegroup, place a heavy wreck marker.

Note: this list could pretty easily be adapted to a general 50 point list by dropping the Mortars. You only end up gaining 3 points in the trade, but you could easily turn those into Sylas + WG WA, or any number of other tweaks that would work well.

You forgot to mention the somewhat important Tier 4 benefit.... If Ranged Jacks = 3+, Ranged Jacks = -1 point.

[OrsusSmash]

You forgot to mention the somewhat important Tier 4 benefit.... If Ranged Jacks = 3+, Ranged Jacks = -1 point.

This list was a dump from iBodger, which just rolls those benefits into the list build. However, that is a really important thing to point out, and one of the reasons I really like Harkevich's theme list: not a single tier bonus sucks! Most of them are pretty great, actually, and you don't really need to take stuff you wouldn't want to or can't work with.

It's also why I like his theme list as a possible build path for him: the reduced warjack cost makes it easier to fit more warjacks into the list, while maintaining a decently strong anti-infantry core. My non-Conquest 50 point theme lists have 4 heavies in them, and I don't really feel like the list is straining to include them. The biggest issue is that fueling 4 heavies is tricky; with Conquest, you're back to only having to fuel 3, which is nice.

[Krazy_Ivan]

/agree with the 3 'jack battlegroup for hark. My personal recipe so far has been Behemoth, Black Ivan, and a Jugger. usually i play fast and loose with the jugger, trading him for what ever i please. Basically i bring him to throw away because what ever gets stuck dealing with him is usually a juicy item. If its infantry, WGI move up and spray it dead (or CRA in some cases). If its armor, behemoth goes and scraps it with harks feat and sits at arm24.

Fortune is a pretty awesome up keep. I tend to tag behemoth with it first and then make a judment call depending on how the game is progressing. Sometimes i'll let behemoth keep it, other times i'll tag infantry with it. Having 3 very accurate bombards at the start of each turn at your finger tips is pretty great and will really punish most light jacks or a careless caster. For infantry, i think the WGDS really jive well with fortune. Its nice on IFP, don't get me wrong, but generally with a 3 jack battle group, you don't need any more heavy hitters. You need something to deal with def ratings and the WGI are superb at this. Those tough rolls are also super handy on such a large unit as well. They also have just enough armor to occasionally survive blast damage as well. This is why i really tend to pass on bringing the kayazy unless i know i won't have to worry about a lot of templates.

[Mercykiller]

Yarp, you got 3 points spare in that list

EDIT: Ninjad by OrsusSmash lol.

[Khador247]

Last night I ran Harkevich, Conquest, Behemoth, Black Ivan, Koldun Lord, Sylys, Gorman, Epic Eiryss, min Mechaniks w/ UA. I was up against an Ossyan list that had Hyperion in it. It was a heck of a good game. Ultimately Behemoth took down Hyperion which allowed Black Ivan to get into melee with Ossyan and he finished the deal.

Escort is an awesome spell and it's great that Sylys can upkeep it for free. Ivan gets auto boosted ranged attacks with Harkevich and with power boosts from the Koldun Lord you can boost damage as well thus Ivan is able to be independent and not drain focus from Harkevich for most of the game. The extra two movement from Escort is sweet and the extra 3 ARM that it grants Harkevich if he's within three inches is nice too. Jump Start was huge in my game last night when I finally remembered what it did. lol. Conquest didn't do much in this game but he did soak up a lot of attention which allowed Behemoth to excel. Have to run or I'd say more.

[TarlSS]

Would Torch be a good addition, or is he just completely overshadowed by Spriggan Flare + Reach? Spriggan > Heavies, but Torch is good against Heavies and can take on infantry, plus he adds smoke.

[OrsusSmash]

Would Torch be a good addition, or is he just completely overshadowed by Spriggan Flare + Reach? Spriggan > Heavies, but Torch is good against Heavies and can take on infantry, plus he adds smoke.

I think Reach is just too clutch to give up. Even though Escort is really nice, you still don't have any other threat enhancers, and as a result your threat range is predictable. To keep your opponent honest, I've found that its best to keep that "static" threat range as long as you can, so that your opponent has a minimum range they need to worry about. You can still totally eat hits on the chin from outside of 11", but the number of things/combos that can reliably do that are smaller than what can catch you from outside of 9.5" (which is actually a surprising amount of stuff if you sit down and make a list.)

Don't get me wrong, I kinda like Torch! But I think like a lot of our 'jacks, he works best as a second wave 'jack unless you can really jack up his speed and give him weird angles of approach. Reach on the Spriggan makes him a fantastic choice, and the higher ARM while he has his shield up isn't bad either.

[Khador247]

Even though Ivan ultimately got the caster kill for me I still spent most of the game wishing that I had a Spriggan instead.

[Thenmy]

Tier 4: Wolf Pack
50 points, 27 models

Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf

* Black Ivan
* Conquest
* Spriggan

4 Battle Mechaniks 2 points

* Battle Mechanik Officer

Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich
10 Winter Guard Infantry

* Winter Guard Officer & Standard

Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Winter Guard Mortar Crew

That list is 51 pts. Did you take double discount for the jacks you substituted for Conquest? To make it fit, I'd ditch the Mechanic UA and add a single Rocketeer or a War Dog. No biggie.

[OrsusSmash]

That list is 51 pts. Did you take double discount for the jacks you substituted for Conquest? To make it fit, I'd ditch the Mechanic UA and add a single Rocketeer or a War Dog. No biggie.

Yep, that's exactly what happened! When the hell is War Room coming out again?

Good catch. To make the fit, I'd actually downgrade one of the Mortars to a Field Gun before I'd ditch the Mechanik UA. I've actually found it particularly useful with Conquest, since it's largely resistant to the things that are going to kill your Mechaniks tucked back there (Electro Leaps, auto-hit spells.) Plus, I just painted the little guy.

[TarlSS]

Unfortunately WGI have a better home in my eSorcha list. Is there a better possible replacement? Maybe AKs+Flames?

Yeah, they're "terrible", but isn't the point to get a meatwall that deals with infantry? Spray/explosion should at least keep things open enough that you can bulldoze your way through.

[OrsusSmash]

I highly recommend against AKs.

I try my damnedest to use and find value in all of our unit entries, but every time I dust off the AKs, they run into a situation where they're just straight up out of their depth for their cost. Fortune is a great buff for them, as accuracy is a big issue that they have, but it doesn't give them the bump they need to be a truly flexible anti-infantry unit, in my experience. If/when they ever get a UA (assuming it has good rules) they could be a solid choice, but for now I think they're just too finicky.

If you're looking for something other than WGI, I'd recommend Kayazy + UA. Sure, you don't have Iron Flesh, but they're still a pain to get rid of with their base stats/abilities (plus Duelist,) they're still great anti-infantry models (MAT 9 is straight awesome,) and they have some flexibility thanks to Gang and possible charges.

[underwaterviuw]

I've played Harkevich's theme force quite a bit myself, and I'll chime in to say that Orsus has basically nailed it. I don't have Conquest, but the possibilities it presents are pretty apparent.

Alternatives to WGI: within theme, you can take the Rifle Corps, which I highly recommend. They're still reliant on Joe, so won't help with Character Restriction, but they're a very nice alternative, if a little less flexible. They're good at hanging back and supporting the battlegroup; long-range, accurate fire is great for crowd control and Suppressing Fire can help out against infantry charges.

When I play his theme force, the difference between 35 and 50 points means more infantry. I can fill out units and grab some Demo Corps (I like them as counter-chargers to discourage charges from heavies). With Conquest, not so much. There will be less support on the field, but Conquest brings some of that with him so it won't be a huge issue.

I think Harkevich works best when he can maintain his mobility and punish the enemy for engaging (Bulldoze, superior armor/repair, Suppressing Fire, etc.). Conquest plays to these strengths. You can't shut down his shooting by engaging, he can cause massed KD (remember those mortars you brought along...), and he can do some serious lifting in melee. As an added bonus, his simple presence will take a lot of heat off Black Ivan, who can be extremely squirrely.

I never thought I'd want Conquest, but he's starting to look like a lot of fun.

[Karl Eller]

Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf

* Black Ivan
* Conquest
* Spriggan

4 Battle Mechaniks 2 points

* Battle Mechanik Officer

Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich
10 Winter Guard Infantry

* Winter Guard Officer & Standard

Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Winter Guard Mortar Crew

The only time I'd ever take the Battle Mechanic UA over a 2nd min unit of Battle Mechanics is if I've got a bunch of Man-O-War that I want to be able to repair. For repairing 'jacks, a min unit is much better.

Unfortunately WGI have a better home in my eSorcha list. Is there a better possible replacement? Maybe AKs+Flames?

Yeah, they're "terrible", but isn't the point to get a meatwall that deals with infantry? Spray/explosion should at least keep things open enough that you can bulldoze your way through.

I could see a min unit of AKs with 3x Flamethrowers be pretty hilarious under Fortune, or two units of Greylord Ternion will do a good job of clearing infantry while also being able to Ice Cage to compensate for your 'jacks ****ty RAT.

[OrsusSmash]

The only time I'd ever take the Battle Mechanic UA over a 2nd min unit of Battle Mechanics is if I've got a bunch of Man-O-War that I want to be able to repair. For repairing 'jacks, a min unit is much better.

I've been trying out the UA as a buffer against the prevalence of auto-jumps in my meta (Cygnar resurgent with Storm Strider, Menoth with Vessel of Judgment.) Mechaniks still die to POW 10s, even while in B2B with the warjack, but the Mechanik Officer can eat a few of those and still be fine (less if boostable, but hopefully he won't have to eat that many.)

Its actually worked fairly well, and the higher base skill check for Repairs is nice. What I've found is that, although more Mechaniks may fit easily into a list, I tend to get jammed up moving all that around my backfield. I work best with smaller units, which makes the Mechanik UA a good fit in this case. Plus, hey, Lash.

[Marth]

I could see a min unit of AKs with 3x Flamethrowers be pretty hilarious under Fortune, or two units of Greylord Ternion will do a good job of clearing infantry while also being able to Ice Cage to compensate for your 'jacks ****ty RAT.

Double Ternion works like a treat - with some Kayazy, you can really create a wall of smoke to hide behind (well, everything but the Conquest). Whether that works is matchup dependent. The Greylords even outclass AK's, at least when it comes to damage comparison - better skill, same power, same range. Susceptibility to immunities... might be about the same.