Question on Kaelyssa

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

If you witch hound a banshee and knockdown their caster during it's activation does the activation immediately end since ideally you would have to forfeit your action because you already moved?

[Nafael]

The caster's activation doesn't end immediately I don't think. It's more of the fact that /there is very little they can do./

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

The activation does not immediately end because nothing about KD says it does.

However, for most casters, that's pretty much all she wrote. If they already moved, they can't forfeit it. They can forfeit an action, but spell casting and certain other activities don't require you to use your action.

Most of the time, the activation is essentially over. But that's much different from "ends immediately."

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

So than I couldn't stop a potential spell assassination this way? they could just forfeit action and cast spells at me? Or would the fact that there action is over mean they can't cast anymore?

[Jestor]

Sure you can. You can block line of sight to your caster. You can tie up their arcnode.

There are things you can do on your back (like feat) and ways to stand up so it would not end their activation but, for most casters, in most cases, it effectively does!

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

My Buddy plays Cryx, as a result I see PDeneghra a little more than I would like. He also has P and E gaspy. This is why I was asking with regards to him being able to cast while KD or after his action is finished if I was to KD him at that point.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

So than I couldn't stop a potential spell assassination this way? they could just forfeit action and cast spells at me? Or would the fact that there action is over mean they can't cast anymore?

Ok, let me repeat myself: The activation is not over. You may cast spells at any point during your activation, not just during your action. Provided that they can stand up, more spells can head your way.

But I don't see why this is a problem...

Kae has Witch Hound. They cast, you move away. Out of RNG, out of LOS, it doesn't matter. If that's not feasible, move a jack to block LOS. Or, move your Banshee into Wailing distance. Deneghra has stealth so you'll need to be that close with the Banshee anyway. KD isn't even a factor.

Kae is pretty much a hard counter for pDenny. Trying to KD her won't solve any problem you're having. What is she possibly doing that's causing so much grief?

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

Ok, let me repeat myself: The activation is not over. You may cast spells at any point during your activation, not just during your action. Provided that they can stand up, more spells can head your way.

But I don't see why this is a problem...

Kae has Witch Hound. They cast, you move away. Out of RNG, out of LOS, it doesn't matter. If that's not feasible, move a jack to block LOS. Or, move your Banshee into Wailing distance. Deneghra has stealth so you'll need to be that close with the Banshee anyway. KD isn't even a factor.

Kae is pretty much a hard counter for pDenny. Trying to KD her won't solve any problem you're having. What is she possibly doing that's causing so much grief?

I haven't actually got Kae yet. I was just thinking in terms of tactics againstcertain casters in general. I understand that you don't need to spend an action to cast spells with a warcaster. But I was toying with the idea of KD'ing his caster for auto hits on my turn, That's all.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

As nice as it is going into your turn with the caster KD'd, I should stress that this is not a realistic expectation. To hit the warcaster with an unboosted Banshee shot requires a very above average roll. It also requires the enemy to oblige you by casting spells at your battlegroup.

Witch Hound is a reactive ability. While it is crazy good, it only works when your opponent allows it to. It does provide a high degree of defense to spell assassination, but this is because you can just move away, not because of the unboosted attack. A canny Deneghra player will understand VERY quickly the danger of casting spells at Kae's army (Witch Hound, Arcane Reckoning, Banishing Ward, etc) and be forced to go to Plan B. Luckily for Kae, Plan B is usually not very good and she can focus on scrapping arc nodes, shooting out pieces that rely on stealth, and focusing fire on the models left who can actually hurt her.

Spellcasters are not one of Kae's worries. She has answers in spades. You will be better served worrying about the correct application of force to the combat monsters who are out there and not the spell weenies.

[Lord Arcanist Ginga]

As nice as it is going into your turn with the caster KD'd, I should stress that this is not a realistic expectation. To hit the warcaster with an unboosted Banshee shot requires a very above average roll. It also requires the enemy to oblige you by casting spells at your battlegroup.

Witch Hound is a reactive ability. While it is crazy good, it only works when your opponent allows it to. It does provide a high degree of defense to spell assassination, but this is because you can just move away, not because of the unboosted attack. A canny Deneghra player will understand VERY quickly the danger of casting spells at Kae's army (Witch Hound, Arcane Reckoning, Banishing Ward, etc) and be forced to go to Plan B. Luckily for Kae, Plan B is usually not very good and she can focus on scrapping arc nodes, shooting out pieces that rely on stealth, and focusing fire on the models left who can actually hurt her.

Spellcasters are not one of Kae's worries. She has answers in spades. You will be better served worrying about the correct application of force to the combat monsters who are out there and not the spell weenies.

Hah spell weenies, will have to remember that. Thanks for the insight ed.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Anytime! Feel free to pitch any other issues at us. Kae gets a pretty reasonable amount of love on the forum so there will almost always be somebody around who'll talk her up.

[Kallas]

However, for most casters, that's pretty much all she wrote. If they already moved, they can't forfeit it. They can forfeit an action, but spell casting and certain other activities don't require you to use your action.

Most of the time, the activation is essentially over. But that's much different from "ends immediately."

Actually, a model which is knocked down during its controller's turn (ie, whenever knocked down by Witch Hound) then it cannot stand up that turn at all barring special rules, (Prime, pg64) so you would not be allowed to forfeit your movement/action to stand up.

Also, when knocked down you cannot:
- move
- make actions (so no combat action, no special actions, etc)
- cast spells
- channel spells
- use animi
- use feats
- give orders

So a Warcaster/lock knocked down during their activation is essentially worthless. Even a Warlock with access to Rise (the Blackhide Wrastler's animus, which causes a model to stand up) would not be able to stand up, since being knocked down specifically prohibits using animi and casting spells. Same deal with Irusk2's feat (causing knocked down models to immediately stand up) because he can't use his feat after he's knocked down, and pre-knock down feating wouldn't help.

So yes, when knocked down by a Banshee from Witch Hound, their 'caster/'lock is boned.

[Rogue Sun]

Actually, a model which is knocked down during its controller's turn (ie, whenever knocked down by Witch Hound) then it cannot stand up that turn at all barring special rules, (Prime, pg64) so you would not be allowed to forfeit your movement/action to stand up.

Also, when knocked down you cannot:
- move
- make actions (so no combat action, no special actions, etc)
- cast spells
- channel spells
- use animi
- use feats
- give orders

So a Warcaster/lock knocked down during their activation is essentially worthless. Even a Warlock with access to Rise (the Blackhide Wrastler's animus, which causes a model to stand up) would not be able to stand up, since being knocked down specifically prohibits using animi and casting spells. Same deal with Irusk2's feat (causing knocked down models to immediately stand up) because he can't use his feat after he's knocked down, and pre-knock down feating wouldn't help.

So yes, when knocked down by a Banshee from Witch Hound, their 'caster/'lock is boned.

This.

Knocking down ANY model in their own activation that does not have steady or some other means of NOT being knocked down may not do anything further. So yes, they're activation doesn't immediately end, but they can't do anything for the remainder of it.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Ah, of course. Not sure how my wires got crossed on that one. However, I do stand by my statement and the final point is still correct.

The activation does not immediately end because nothing about KD says it does.

However, for most casters, that's pretty much all she wrote.

Most of the time, the activation is essentially over. But that's much different from "ends immediately."

[Murkhadh]

What Ed said is correct, the activation is not immediately over, you can still do all of the things that you area allowed to do while knocked down. Granted what you can do while knocked down is essentially nothing but the simple fact of being knocked down doesn't auto end your activation, the reason you will choose to end your activation after that is there isn't anything else you can do.

[AJ the Ronin]

A caster can always heal some wounds if it still has focus.

[Rogue Sun]

Which it might as well since the MHSF about to shoot them will ignore it anyway. :P

[Ralphus]

My Buddy plays Cryx, as a result I see PDeneghra a little more than I would like. He also has P and E gaspy. This is why I was asking with regards to him being able to cast while KD or after his action is finished if I was to KD him at that point.

Please don't forget the PDenny has Stealth. That is kind of important. :P

[Mastershake]

Please don't forget the PDenny has Stealth. That is kind of important. :P

Please don't forget that models around her may not and neither do her arc nodes who can't arc while knocked down.

[Ralphus]

Please don't forget that models around her may not and neither do her arc nodes who can't arc while knocked down.

Yes, listen to Shake and shoot the closest non-stealth unit and knock her down by proxy.