Caine's Character Sentinel

[Sardonic Artery]

Anyone see today's Insider (7/18/12) about playtesting? A friend sent me an oxymoron of a text. It included the words "OP Sentinel." Then again, D6 strafe, POW 6 armor piercing with RAT 7 is pretty nice.

[Sardonic Artery]

Of course, I remember cracking a joke a long time ago about how Caine's character sentinel should have a special action where Caine gives it one focus to die rejected and alone (with the caveat that Cygnar's selfish drunkard would never give the sentinel one lousy focus to begin with).

[PG_Dino-Czar]

That Sentinel is entirely out of control, and would be an automatic include with easily half the casters in Cygnar.

I wouldn't get too excited about anything on the "play tester quiz".

[John of Arc]

~10 to a Khador warjack for no focus on average rolls, NBD. I just feel sorry for the Hunter. Pretty sure it's one of the errors the blog was talking about :P

[Gavriel]

Some like that one, are pretty obvious, others like Siege's Centurion are a little trickier. Is spd 5 and relentless charge on a centurion really that broken? Especially seeing as you can't charge and polarity field in the same turn. I look forward to trying it out and seeing how it works.

[Sardonic Artery]

Agreed. SPD 5 and pathfinder on Darius' 10-point character Centurion seems fair though.

[FearLord]

Some like that one, are pretty obvious, others like Siege's Centurion are a little trickier. Is spd 5 and relentless charge on a centurion really that broken? Especially seeing as you can't charge and polarity field in the same turn. I look forward to trying it out and seeing how it works.

It also has sustained attack without a Crit though...

[Patryn]

It also has sustained attack without a Crit though...

Then you compare anything it has to Deathjack and realize it's actually quite balanced. :P

[bStyker]

I haven't seen it, but by the sounds of it, it looks like a lot of brainstorming. IMHO there are no wrong ideas during brainstorming, so it sounds fun to me. Of course 99& of them won't make it through play testing, but still, it's good to see them entertain ideas w/o throwing them out immediately.

I personally don't think Caine would ever have a character jack... and if he did, it'd definitely be a Minute-man. Extended barrel Slug Guns, higher Rat, and Gun Fighter. Heck Yes.

[iksander]

The Caine Sentinel is retarded. Its a RAT 7 jack with Armor piercing on it's strafe. It's only PC 5. You can shove it into anylist as an afterthought at that PC cost. Its one downside is the Range 10.

Yes, yes strafe is random, but its only 16.67 percent chance to have the same amount of shots as the PC 6 hunter, 83 percent of the time it will have more. 83 percent of the time you will at least have damage output of two Hunters. And IMO the grid plus defensive stats of the sentinel chassis > hunter chassis. It honestly feels like the Caine Sentinel is this PPS playtest's version of "if you don't call this out as BS, we're going to disregard any input you have".

[ShockFist]

This is PP's apology jack for that disaster of a jack *cough*Triumph*cough*

[MidnightFox0083]

This is PP's apology jack for that disaster of a jack *cough*Triumph*cough*

Too bad it's a false apology.

[ShockFist]

Sorry... this SHOULD be PP's apology :P

[Strangelove]

It might be Darius' Centurion, but one Jeremiah Kraye would make that thing nasty. Full Tilt on a Centurion is cool. Full Tilt on a better Centurion is even cooler. Relentless Charge could maybe be viewed as a little redundant given Easy Rider, but it also insures you don't need to invest in a costly spell to get him where you want him if need be. Sustained Attack without the crit is just sick.

The Sentinel is a tad insane with most casters.

[GreenJello]

The Sentinel is a tad insane with most casters.

How is it any worse than Cankerworm?

[jking_3rd]

I'm already drooling over both for my Kraye lists. I can't wait to field test them!

[MidnightFox0083]

How is it any worse than Cankerworm?

Cankerworm's AP is a * Attack, this one's an inate ability that gets passed to d6 attacks.

[Sardonic Artery]

And here's where I admit my reluctance to playtest, because there's no way that character sentinel will make it through as is.

[Chasu]

I made a fake sentinel character for Caine once. It had sniper instead of Ap. I thought it was a lot of fun with it's rat 7 and the imprint that allowed it to be placed completely within 3" when it spent 1 focus. It was also 7 points.

The Ap is just way to strong with Strafe. It is with other caster's is when it gets silly.

[Chasu]

Darius jack + Jackhammer = Dumb

[sleet01]

Did you guys actually read the part of the article where it says, "These are not real models, and their errors and imbalances are intentional"? Just wanted to double-check that you don't think these are actual models up for play-testing... more's the pity.

[iksander]

Did you guys actually read the part of the article where it says, "These are not real models, and their errors and imbalances are intentional"? Just wanted to double-check that you don't think these are actual models up for play-testing... more's the pity.

Yeah, its to give possible play testers the chops to see whats just plain broken (ie: AP Strafe; Devoted Guardian; 4" pow 17 Thresher; ARM 25, 34 HitBox, tech Interference; etc...), the wonky wording/errors (ie Irusk's Maruader's Smite rules, etc..) and rules interactions (ie Swift Hunter + Strafe, etc...)

Still it's like getting nice models in the leagues. Fun for lolz.

[Anurien]

Did you guys actually read the part of the article where it says, "These are not real models, and their ERRORS and IMBALANCES are intentional"? Just wanted to double-check that you don't think these are actual models up for play-testing... more's the pity.

I just think this needed restating.

[vintersbastard]

Darius jack + Jackhammer = Dumb

How so? It's not as if Sustained Attack works for Jackhammer attacks.

Actually, I think the Centurion is one of the least problematic. It gets +1 SPD, +1 DEF, Relentless Charge and Sustained Attack. It's possibly closer to eleven points, but it still hits worse than a Stormclad and comes without its own focus supply.

[Halfhoot]

Yea... +1 speed and pathfinder on a charge for 1 point. I see no problems with that one. It adds something that we need (pathfinder on a melee jack) and it's not like speed 5 is broken since half our jacks have that speed anyway. Being a character it could only be in one list out of 2-3 for most tournaments. It's not going to be something that people cry foul on but it's something that Cygnar could really use. I just can't see anything wrong with it.

The sentinel yea... that's just stupid. Snipe on that baby and load it with 3 focus every turn until there are no more heavies on the other side. :P

[lawyerpants]

Ok so the centrion is very fair. I agree that jackhammer is good with him but, frankly, Darius needs something to boost him up...The stromwall did a good job and this centurion will put him over the edge I think. I really think he is an incredibly fairly costed model.

ON the other hand! Cain's Sentinal will need reworking. The simple rework I can think of is D3+1 or just D3 shots. That seems fair. The jack is only Range 10 so without snipe its kind of hard to get more than one unit of shots off.

[Mod_Redphantasm]

The Centurion is fairly costed and has good but not over the top abilities. The problem is that those abilities for the cost make it so much better than a normal Centurion that you would never see it again. Everyone would just take the character.

You can't have character warjacks like that. They can be better but they can't outright replace the original. Even with Rowdy, people still take Ironclads. Even with Thorn people still take Lancers.

[Sardonic Artery]

The Centurion is fairly costed and has good but not over the top abilities. The problem is that those abilities for the cost make it so much better than a normal Centurion that you would never see it again. Everyone would just take the character.

You can't have character warjacks like that. They can be better but they can't outright replace the original. Even with Rowdy, people still take Ironclads. Even with Thorn people still take Lancers.

But can't we just cry "character restrictions!" and get it anyway? Plus, eHaley runs a Centurion great under her bond (so the character Centurion would be out for her).

Also, if you believe that, can we keep the character sentinel and make it POW 8 AP while we're at it?

[Mod_Redphantasm]

But can't we just cry "character restrictions!" and get it anyway? Plus, eHaley runs a Centurion great under her bond (so the character Centurion would be out for her).

Also, if you believe that, can we keep the character sentinel and make it POW 8 AP while we're at it?

We cannot, because character restrictions are only for tournaments and not required 100% of the time. Pieces need to be playtested and designed for more then just multi list tournaments.

[bouncymischa]

The Centurion is fairly costed and has good but not over the top abilities. The problem is that those abilities for the cost make it so much better than a normal Centurion that you would never see it again. Everyone would just take the character.

You can't have character warjacks like that. They can be better but they can't outright replace the original. Even with Rowdy, people still take Ironclads. Even with Thorn people still take Lancers.

This does seem like a good argument to bring one of the abilities in as an Affinity, instead of getting it with all warcasters.

Admittedly, you have to be careful with that -- for example, you'll only ever really see Hypnos with Ossyan because it's best ability by far is linked to its Affinity. But it can be a way to reduce the ubiquity of a character model...

[GunMageinTraining]

The Jacks in the post are all unbalanced in different ways. Some thematically, some overpowered, some underpowered, some just ineffectual.

The point is to be able to point out the weaknesses, shore them up or at least propose viable alternatives, and express yourself clearly.

We all agree that the Sentinel is insane. Cheaper than a Hunter, with up to 6x as much firepower? Now... what would you change? What options would fit with

1. Caine
2. Value and/or Function
3. Differentiate it from a normal Sentinel, but still make normal sentinels have value.

The Centurion was fairly priced I feel. A speed and Def upgrade, along with pathfinder on charge only are good. Going from Critical Sustain to straight sustain is also nice. Now... does any of that really fit with Darius? All of the special issue jacks released so far have at least some similar 'themes' with their warcaster of choice. Not to say that they are actually good with them, or better with others, but they at least are similar in nature. I'd think a Darius special jack would have some sort of self-repair. Maybe even a crane action? All of it's proposed buffs are good, and it's probably fairly priced for it, but it does invalidate a normal Centurion somewhat, sometimes that's going to be impossible to avoid though.

The problem becomes, and Triumph was a great example of it... the Warcaster does EVERYTHING the jack did, but better. The special issue jacks should be designed to complement their chosen warcaster(s) but not push them over the edge like the Sentinel or Rahn's arc node would. Likewise, they have to be built in a way that doesn't render them pointless with their chosen caster too. Even if they are pointless with other casters in their faction.

[Halfhoot]

I think thematically as Caine's jack a good idea for the Sentinel would be the... what's the name of the ability that is on like the stone shooting unit in Circle? Each shot that hits means the next does +1 damage. It would fit great with Caine and not be insanely stupid like AP on every shot would be. It would mean on average you'd get a 10,11,12 maybe a 13 shot. That's not overpowered. It fits with Caine. It's kinda cool.

[Sanguinary Dan]

I think Halfhoot has a great idea. But perhaps with each shot hitting the same target it gains strength? Basically the Chain Gun tears it's way thru a target with a continuous stream of bullets.

And Darius' Centurion is too good not to take. Why take a slower, less damaging version only to save one point? I'd put him with pNemo and watch him murder anything he got close to under Disruption Field and 5 focus.

[Sardonic Artery]

And Darius' Centurion is too good not to take. Why take a slower, less damaging version only to save one point? I'd put him with pNemo and watch him murder anything he got close to under Disruption Field and 5 focus.

Either drop the sustained attack back to a crit at 10 points or make it cost 11 -- that would make it Ironclad / Rowdy equivalent.

[TsavongLah]

Agreed. I'd pay 11 points for that Centurion.

[WarcasterKramer]

I don't think that the Centurion is anything special, I mean 1 extra SPD, relentless charge, and sustained attack (non critical) for an extra point is certainly worth it, but i would think a character melee jack should first and foremost have a better MAT. Also, this is Darius's jack, so one would think it would have some different kind of ability - maybe something to do with repairs. Maybe an auto repair (D3) each turn. Or maybe go in a different direction - change out the shield for another weapon (like a 2nd spear or perhaps a dagger) so that it doesn't completely replace the existing Centurion. Or maybe make the spear two handed and give it a special attack that hits for a P+S 22 or 23.

As for the Sentinel, I wonder how hard they were laughing at PP before they released that PDF? It is utterly insane (probably intentional) and would make the Hunter and Sentinel almost obsolete and this sentinel an auto-include in every list. You'd at least need to change it to (D3) shots (if the intention is to keep AP) and maybe extend shield guard to 4 inches rather than 2.

[watchgeorgerock]

Regular Cent is over costed but we use it because its one of our beefier options. 10 points seems fair

[iksander]

To those saying they would take the Cent at eleven, or that it needs its to be nerfed. Look at the Stormclad and Rowdy. Look at other eleven point models besides Triumph. That Cent's equal to the Avatar or the Deathjack? If you push it to eleven you should give it something in return IMO.

Stormclad Versus Darius' Cent:

Stormclad:
+1 MAT
+1 POW both weapons
Ranged attack
Electroleap
Accumulator

Cent:
+2 Arm
Sustained Attack
Pathfinder on Charges
Polarity Field

Rowdy Verus Cent:

Rowdy:
-1 PC
+2 MAT
Free Run/Charge
Crit Knockdown
Counter Charge
Grudge
Affinity

Cent:
+1 Arm
Sustained Attack
Pathfinder on Charges
Polarity Field
Reach

I may be underrating the hell out of sustained attack as a measure of focus efficiency versus efficiency that's a simple plus 1 focus. I'm probably mentally Downplaying the Polarity field special action to a certain extent. But I can't say the Centurion is above its peers.

[Rolling_Thunder]

You're underrating reach actually. Also polarity shield. It allows the 'Jack to basically be immune to infantry if it wants to be. sure it can't fight then, but does it need to? you can engage a bunch of things that can't hurt it or just pure profit.

Rowdy far and away outshines a normal ironclad. It's bad design in it's current state. For those 2 points Rowdy is better 100% of the time if available. Any list with an ironclad can find 2 points, and is better with rowdy. This is just play true, I'm sorry friends.

The character Cent has that same problem. It should cost 11 and have some way to both PS and attack, but not while charging. Something simple like an elecrtical version of combust (Phoenix) that also PS's would be awesome. It's not going to kill a heavy and be fine, but it can still clear some infantry and Shield up. Now it's different, it costs more, and isn't strictly better.

[iksander]

You're underrating reach actually. Also polarity shield.

Well Stormclad has Reach so thats all equal there, but man Rowdy? I'll forgive lack of reach for another attack due to free charge, that's the difference between one rounding heavies, and leaving schlubs alive, plus out of activation movement is too good.

I probably am underrating polarity shield but I'm also wondering if the new colossal influenced meta, where people have to plan for arm 22 56 hit box monstrosities , if a single heavy isn't just as likely to be excised with extreme prejudice. That and I find engaging lesser PC cost infantry with something more expensive to generally be a net loss, unless preventing me from losing. I mean unless you have a sweet bottleneck, your cent can only occupy/threaten so much real estate.

I mean I have no problem with raising the Cent to 11 points, but it has to get something in return to be viable to the at that point scale. Your idea is fine. Heck. give it the equivalent of the Avatar's gaze power, so things have to deal with my polarity shielded Cent would be equally fine. But bang for the buck it isn't as it currently written worth eleven points.

Although I guess this is where playtester opinions get muddled, and why I would be a crappy playtester. I acknowledge that I'm blatantly comparing the character Cent to some of Cygnar's best jacks and find it at the equivalent level. When in all honesty Rowdy is an outlier like the Black 13th on the old power scale. So I tend to lean the design towards Model X is point competitive with the factions best, instead of modern design of this is my niche and I suck outside of my chosen niche/caster (say hello Black Ivan).