Feora 1 Tactica up at Sustained Attack

[PG_dungeongod]

I wrote up a tactica/informational on Feora 1 over at Sustained Attack.

Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? Anything I missed?

[Nanoha]

I don't know, it seems pretty conventional. I liked Paradox's write-up more.

[PG_dungeongod]

He did a writeup of Feora 1? I must have missed it - do you have a link to share?

Edit: Also, do you have anything specific that was "too conventional" or anything specific I missed? I am also hoping for constructive criticism/feedback, so I can do a better job down the road

[Nanoha]

Sure, here you go:
http://museonminis.com/menite-dark-horses-2012-part-2/

Edit: Also, do you have anything specific that was "too conventional" or anything specific I missed? I am also hoping for constructive criticism/feedback, so I can do a better job down the road

Hmm, well to elaborate I felt like the article really only covered one tactic (power Feora up and launch her at people). I grant that a lot of her power is built around that idea, but I feel like it's the same idea as I've seen other places.

[PG_dungeongod]

Heh, I had seen that when it was written, I just didn't realize it was Paradox for some reason. Whoops. Thanks for the reminder of it.

[PG_dungeongod]

Re-reading it, I know I got some of my ideas of how to play her from his article, but I found that his particular style wasn't working for me in my local meta. Of course, that was some time ago, but I have found my more aggressive style to work better for me with her.

I wasn't aware there was a "standard" way to play her, given how little I have seen about her in general. Which was kind of why I chose her for my first Tactica I did.

[PG_dungeongod]

Ack! Double post - apologies.

[paradox]

I definitely feel "EoD missile" is her standard way to play. There's nothing bad with that, and it's a good write-up. I feel it is more surface and less depth, though. You may want to consider talking a little more about how you line up her threat.

Also consider Corbeau with her. If Saxon is going in, Corbeau might as well too. That 3" move can be alot of things, like the difference of having EoD range or not, or the right angle, or enough to catch them in the feat, or get them in SP range.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, EoD is also great just for walking 8" to SP/feat/BE.

'Jacks like dervish or templar are good with her because they can maximize BE from their movement shenanigans.

The missle delivery camp is good, but there are tricks you can use while you close, like dropping Walls of Fire between support models and the model they want to buff. This is especially so after Corbeau gives her a move, and Saxon gives her PF, and EoD let's her walk 8". 11" of movement while walking and with PF is suprising to people. With the right set-up, you can nail a 'caster with the feat from 23" away.

[PG_dungeongod]

Thanks for the feedback Paradox - I definitely did not go as in depth as I wanted to, reading over it again.

Also, I don't own Corbeau yet, as she was hard to get in my FLGS until recently, and I was under a strict budget because of income reasons for a while. She is on my short list of models that I want to own for my Protectorate.

I don't think I covered enough on her movement shenanigans either - really appreciate that feedback, and I am going to incorporate it in the next Tactica I do

[paradox]

No prob. The more 'casters are talked about, the more they get play. Look at what happened with Vindictus. Talk about a turnaround!
Also what Gaston has been doing with HR.

Feora1 just needs more cheering section.

[PG_dungeongod]

Yeah, I remember when I started everyone was down on Vindy, and I loved him. I was terrible with him, since I was so new, but after a year of play, I feel I made people in my shop fear him (gotta love effectively army-wide pathfinder).

I have been finding the same thing with HR and Feora1, and since no one else in my meta currently plays them, it can make for some fun surprises for people

[Soulblighter]

Look at what happened with Vindictus. Talk about a turnaround!

Actually if I recall, most of the Vindictus hate came from a small, but vocal minority, myself included. But hey it just wouldn't be the Protectorate forums without me spreading undue negativity

Also, Feora1 is a pretty terrible warcaster. I'd put her in the bottom three with Reznik and the High Reclaimer.

[paradox]

Actually if I recall, most of the Vindictus hate came from a small, but vocal minority, myself included.

No, I recall many more people over a number of forums.

Also, Feora1 is a pretty terrible warcaster.

I've heard that before.....
I had GREAT success with her at the end of last year, and more recently under Crutch-Free, running the list I mentioned in the other thread, and a similar under CF.

I do not find her weak at all. She has great DEF stats (I know you disagree on that, but she does). She has great hitting power. She can crowd control or heavy-hit, and can switch up roles on a dime.

I have a harder time vs Trolls (stone = no fire) but that's true of both Feora's. Feora is also REALLY BAD in mirror-matches. I once played Feora1 vs Feora1. It was one of the hardest kills ever.

But on the whole, her feat/BE/WoF/SPs can take out swarms. Ignite/EoD can hit hard on heavies. Fire + HH vs 'casters.
There is nothing she can't do. She can participate at every stage of the game. She is dynamic and fun to play. Corbeau makes her sing. True, Feora2 has Flame Step built in, but she lacks EoD, and 2's feat is precision, whereas 1's feat is carnage.

[Soulblighter]

No, I recall many more people over a number of forums.

Well you gotta remember he was being compared to Strakhov when he first came out. People saw how amazing Strakhov and then looked at Vindictus and scratched their heads. So that was why Vindictus was initially hated.

She has great DEF stats (I know you disagree on that, but she does)

I agree she has great base stats. The problem is she's got no defensive buffs and we've got nothing like JMWC to boost her defensive stats up even more.

[paradox]

Speaking of which, Strakov seems like the Feora1 of Khador to me. Seems like I haven't seen him played in a year or so. He was popular last summer, then....

[Soulblighter]

Speaking of which, Strakov seems like the Feora1 of Khador to me. Seems like I haven't seen him played in a year or so. He was popular last summer, then....

It doesnt surprise me since Strakov is more or less a warjack caster and the Khador meta seems to have shifted away from jacks. I rarely see more than 1-2 warjacks in a Khador list these days. A Khador player explained it to me once, they dont like using MAT6 warjacks, because theyre focus inefficient. So when you do see Khador use warjacks its typically character warjacks with higher MAT and strong focus multipliers.

[Snipafist]

I wrote up a tactica/informational on Feora 1 over at Sustained Attack.

Thoughts? Comments? Ideas? Anything I missed?

I didn't find it very deep. It spoke about what each piece of the Feora1 package does but doesn't really go into much detail on how to put them all together. I liked Paradox's article a lot more.

[Draznar]

No prob. The more 'casters are talked about, the more they get play. Look at what happened with Vindictus. Talk about a turnaround!.

Tell me more! What changed for Vindictus?

[Spyde]

I definitely feel "EoD missile" is her standard way to play. There's nothing bad with that, and it's a good write-up. I feel it is more surface and less depth, though. You may want to consider talking a little more about how you line up her threat.

Also consider Corbeau with her. If Saxon is going in, Corbeau might as well too. That 3" move can be alot of things, like the difference of having EoD range or not, or the right angle, or enough to catch them in the feat, or get them in SP range.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, EoD is also great just for walking 8" to SP/feat/BE.

'Jacks like dervish or templar are good with her because they can maximize BE from their movement shenanigans.

The missle delivery camp is good, but there are tricks you can use while you close, like dropping Walls of Fire between support models and the model they want to buff. This is especially so after Corbeau gives her a move, and Saxon gives her PF, and EoD let's her walk 8". 11" of movement while walking and with PF is suprising to people. With the right set-up, you can nail a 'caster with the feat from 23" away.

Corbaeu works on Warcasters ? I thought it was just warrior models.

[paradox]

Tell me more! What changed for Vindictus?

People started playing him, and realized he's actually very good for Menoth. Then some great players took him to events and won games. Those lists made the rounds.

And some humble folks even wrote nice articles about all that, and now people readily accept that Vindy is a viable choice in tourney play.

[paradox]

Corbaeu works on Warcasters ? I thought it was just warrior models.

Warcasters are (generally) warrior models.

[regleant]

What I would absolutely enjoy reading on Feora1 is how she can go from Assassination (Engine of Destruction) to Attrition (her feat) and how to build lists around that. What are some list ideas and synergies to be aware of? To add context...

I've tried to play Feora1 occasionally because she's the main reason I got into the faction. And I've never won with her. It's really quite sad. It seems that her abilities give her options to be run either way, and I'm not sure if I just use poor strategies or poor lists. By way of comparison, my Thyra assassination list has a great win record, as does eKreoss through attrition.

The main way I've tried to play her is as an Attrition caster, with the assassination in the back-pocket if needed. But due to how close to the front she needs to be for her feat, let alone as assassination run, she gets herself killed off quite easily.

Hope that helps you flesh out ideas for your next tactica. Part of the above is just my own personal bemoaning, so take it with a grain of salt.

EDIT: Due to the above posts, I just swapped out Vassal and Piper for Madelyn and Saxon. I'll try that and see if there is any difference.

[paradox]

On ranging. She has an 11 1/2" threat. 14 1/3" with Corbeau. It's good to keep that in mind. You just want to position each round at about the edge of her CTRL. That's enough to pressure, between feat/EoD/HH, to force most 'casters back.

You'll want to screen her in and camp a few focus if you can.

On the feat, I like to pop out a Wall of Fire and camp a focus or two more than normal. I aim at catching either a nice chunk of single-wound or low ARM, or nab key models. Generally, it's better to go for a bulk. Doesn't have to be the whole army. Make sure heavy hitters can't get to her. You can leave her exposed to troops because a. they will be on Fire. And b. you can put the wall in for more fire and POW12. And you can pop a BE if you can jam a jack in place too.

Early game is about BE and setting up the feat. At the mid point, you can put ignite on something to hit the hard stuff.

I'm normally keeping Feora mid-field with the 2nd wave. Ready to strike, but behind the front. I keep pushing my front up so she can keep the Hex Hammer/SP threat on. It sucks to be on Fire and taking damage for casting spells.

[Silverstar843]

I liked Vindictus before he was cool.

I really don't like Feora (either version, actually). Without EoD and her Feat, she doesn't do much of anything. Ignite is ok, but that's her only good thing to upkeep. She's low focus, barely supports her army, and most deadly of all to a protectorate caster, she wants to get the enemy army within 12" of her. If the enemy can counter EoD or feat, she becomes extremely vulnerable.

[Soulblighter]

I really don't like Feora (either version, actually). Without EoD and her Feat, she doesn't do much of anything. Ignite is ok, but that's her only good thing to upkeep. She's low focus, barely supports her army, and most deadly of all to a protectorate caster, she wants to get the enemy army within 12" of her. If the enemy can counter EoD or feat, she becomes extremely vulnerable.

Yeah thats how I feel about Feora1. EoD is really all she does that our other casters cant do. Even her feat can be emulated by any other warcaster by just taking a Vanquisher/Vassal. And shes not even that great at using EoD because it uses up 1/3rd her focus and she has no defensive buff to help keep herself alive. I'd like her way more if she had either a defensive buff or an ability that let her cast a spell for free each turn, like Vlad; either way she'd get a much needed ARM boost.

I think Feora would more or less be fixed if she had an ability like this:
"Whenever an enemy model in feora's ctrl area is destroyed by continuous effect fire, during her next activation, Feora may cast one spell without spending focus."

[Charming]

Wall of fire kicks *** for herding infantry around even if it's just 4". I don't play for eod but keep it in the back off my head in case my ignited templar or reckoner fails me. I'm a bit uncertain as to whether I'll use her at 50 or not though, at the moment I've only used her in 35 pt games.

[PG_dungeongod]

Honestly, I like her more for Hex Hammer than anything else. Add in Ignite for damage output from others around her, and EoD for good assassination runs, and I find her to be pretty dang sweet. Honestly, d3 doesn't seem like much, but when you can stop your opponent from casting spells with most warrior models, and can force them to think hard about it with their warcaster or warlock, it is a big deal. Add to the fact that I have taken out aspects with it on beasts on multiple occasions, or had it do enough to the beasts that I could then crack them the next round, and it is pretty sweet.

[Blackraine]

1. She doesn't have the same spell Reznik has, Reznik has the same spell she has. I know, it's semantics, but she used to be the only warcaster in the game with Engine of Destruction back in the day.

2. (the actual meat of the feedback, to make up for the weaksauce feedback I gave in #1): I'd really talk up how to play her a bit more. You gave a good, fairly technical synopsis of her abilities, but in the end, you really didn't give me anything more than what's on the card. What are her best matchups? What are her worst matchups? What models do you take with her and why (you did some of this, but it almost feels "mentioned in passing")? I feel like it was a good start, but in the end, it didn't really go far enough to be called "Tactica".

That said, I've got a currently 37 page document in which I've written all of my own summaries for the Protectorate Warcasters (and Cygnar, and some Cryx, currently), and looking over it made me realize that my write-up is nearly identical to yours in content. So... thanks for posting this I'll have to step up my game a bit.

[paradox]

The D3's from HH add up alot. Look at Harbie/Martyrdom. This threat has a forcing effect on the game. The fact that you can threaten D3s + set things on fire almost at will combine for a net damaging threat from non-attacks that can be incredibly punishing.

As for what to take with her, I'll use my recent lists as an example. I take daughters to flank and push the leading edge forward. They are also great at clearing out troops and soft solos. Their speed and threat let Feora obtain a solid board position, because it can push her front very far forward. Then I have the 'jacks and KE. The CF version has a repenter, which I think used to be a dervish, but it adds to fire threats and troop-clearing. The heavies and KE are 2nd wave heavy hitters. Feora hangs out around here. Then there are the support pieces, which are usually in back.

The list itself can clear troops and hit heavy. There is a little more reliance on troop-clearing from Feora though, as I tend to use BE/feat/SPs/Wall of Fire/HH alot more than Ignite and EoD for melee purposes anyways). There are pieces to suport the force and Feora, and there's enough redundancy that I can lose things and still function fully.

[darisus]

I think hex hammer is really underrated by alot of people, it can really do a number on single wound spell casting troops and even solos fear to use there magic within 12 of her... "what's that janissa you want to put up a rock wall? Okay, take d3 damage!" "want to do it again next turn, hope you don't die..."

[Soulblighter]

The D3's from HH add up alot.

Ive never gotten HH to work. In my experience, enemy casters just walk out of her control area before casting spells. Typically players dont want their warcasters to be in Feora's control area anyway, since Feora's charge threat range is about equal to her control area.

[Charming]

Ive never gotten HH to work. In my experience, enemy casters just walk out of her control area before casting spells. Typically players dont want their warcasters to be in Feora's control area anyway, since Feora's charge threat range is about equal to her control area.

This is my experience as well, it's just about the same problem as the no spells-action of the book has. It's probably better for herding around spell casting units but it's still a nice gimmick and might be situationally incredible.

[paradox]

Ive never gotten HH to work. In my experience, enemy casters just walk out of her control area before casting spells. Typically players dont want their warcasters to be in Feora's control area anyway, since Feora's charge threat range is about equal to her control area.

That's exactly the effect I mentioned, it forces them back. The more I can push Feora upfield, while maintaining her mid-line position, the more I can push them back off a flag/zone/objective.

And sometimes, they have to stay in her CTRL because of ranging issues. Especially if you've killed any nodes.

When Feora is about mid-table, her CTRL is forcing you into your own D-zone. This is a real problem if Killbox is in play.

[koreandog]

Why do people like eFeora over pFeora? I think pFeora is easier to play, since you don't need to worry about her synergy with fire for her feat.

[Silverstar843]

eFeora has a bond which turns a Redeemer (or other model) into a Vanquisher with multiple shots.
Escort extends Menoth's threat ranges and ups Feora's armor.
Her feat can be used in a similar manner to Terminus's. You can light a bunch of enemies on fire and then feat and get over 10 focus.
Fire Step is a very powerful assassination tool allowing you to get some silly charge angles.
pFeora lights you on fire. eFeora says fires cannot go out. Get that warcaster lit up and then camp all your focus and watch them burn to death.
pFeora is very straightforward, yes, but eFeora just has better tools for a similar style of play.

[paradox]

I dont find their styles to be similar enough to say A does it better than B.
They are toolboxy in different ways.

Feora2 lacks the variety and power Feora1 has, but has greater personal flexibility and mobility. Feora2 has nothing like wall of fire, blazing effigy, or the feat. Feora 1 has no protection/buff like escort, lacks the options of fire step, or the reliability of caustic presence.

[Silverstar843]

I guess so, but pFeora tends to get close and camp. eFeora has Escort. They both have ignite and can easily clear out infantry that are jamming.

[Spideredd]

Has anyone noticed that you can cast wall of fire then walk her in to get concealment if you have to.
I can't see too many times where this would be useful, but it's an option no other caster has, and anyone trying for assassination will get burned.

How does hex hammer work with arc nodes in the area?
Does the jack take D3 damage?

[PG_strangedane]

Has anyone noticed that you can cast wall of fire then walk her in to get concealment if you have to.
I can't see too many times where this would be useful, but it's an option no other caster has, and anyone trying for assassination will get burned.

How does hex hammer work with arc nodes in the area?
Does the jack take D3 damage?

The jack is not the casting model, so no.

[Spideredd]

That's what I thought, but was hoping the other was the case. Thanks.