battle on!: invictors vs. mhsf vs. stormfall

[DigiDjinn]

Alright, I need a solid unit to carry me from small army (15pt) &
Up. I'm going to be playing 50/50 mix of warma-hordes.
I was originally thinking mhsf +ua, but one person said I'd flop against hordes players & should use invictors +ua.. discussing with another player said the utility
of the stormfall would b a better choice.
If I'm using kaelyssa or rayven, which works better against who & why?

[Xeurian]

As an auxiliary all around unit for more than one caster (Kaelyssa OR Ravyn) I would probably recommend the stormfall archers. They can put brutal shots into heavy targets, clear stealth, self snipe and light things on fire. Which is all good for supporting an army.

For Ravyn shooting specifically you are probably looking at MHSF+UA. I wouldn't go so far as to say they FLOP against Hordes... As they still have plenty of squishy targets that they want to hide and keep safe. Its very difficult to keep those models away from MHSF+UA.

If you don't have any solid infantry yet (Sentinels/Halbs) the Invictors are a good choice for being able to threaten things at range and holding their own in melee. They are a pretty robust, though expensive, unit.

I guess to address your main question, if those are the only units you are considering to base the bulk of your army around, Invictors might be your best bet. If you had anything else already, I would go with MHSF+UA hands down. Even tossing in a min unit of those guys can really put an opponent on edge.

Just my opinion...

[Lord Sessadore]

Yeah, the MHSF aren't bad against hordes. They just have different targets - instead of light jacks and support they go after support and infantry. Just because they can't kill beasts doesn't mean they're bad.

All three units are solid, though I find I don't run invictors as often as I thought I would. I usually end up running sentinels and the strike force, personally.

[Xeurian]

All three units are solid, though I find I don't run invictors as often as I thought I would. I usually end up running sentinels and the strike force, personally.

That's the only thing about the Invictors... if I were playing Kaelyssa, I would definitely prefer the Sentinels with the strike force. But if I were playing Ravyn, I might want more out of my feat and would be inclined to take Invictors... Not that Sentinels are a bad choice, but I have been running them in 99.5% of my lists and its time for some Invicts to hit the table : P

[Jestor]

I think that, if you are only going to run one unit that Stormfall fall off. I love them and field them in 75% of my lists but they have certain issues like being only 4 models. All three of those units are staples and will carry you through against Hordes or Warmachine.

[Lord Sessadore]

Jestor alludes to something that should be said - most people run two units of stormfalls together.

[Xeurian]

I think that, if you are only going to run one unit that Stormfall fall off. I love them and field them in 75% of my lists but they have certain issues like being only 4 models. All three of those units are staples and will carry you through against Hordes or Warmachine.

At 15 points he may only be able to run one unit of Stormfall, so honestly I think that's a poor first choice to start an army...

So, DigiDjinn I think you should consider dropping Stormfall archers from your first unit list... MHSF+UA or Invicts would probably do you better to fill out your forces.

[Nobu]

Just my two cents, but... If you are playing as Kaelyssa, her Phantom Hunter spell is similar to the MHSF UA's Phantom Seeker and allows her (or a warjack) to attack past the enemy's front lines, or through buildings, or whatever. That allows you two chances to do that trick on separate activations, which has its uses.

I do like using the Invictors, though, don't get me wrong. Teaming them up with a reach warjack is fun. You can stand there shooting, let melee troops approach... then charge a Scyir+Griffon through the Invictors (before you charge or after you shoot again, depending on how close and how many there are). That isn't a trick available to the MHSF, and the Invictors are harder to kill once you're down to swords.

[Jestor]

I didn't mean it that way actually but it works. More of what I meant is that 4 shots per turn can be underwhelming.

I also took the OP as he was expanding from 15pts. If you are playing at 15pts I would suggest staying away from units and get a couple of solos to fill out your gaps.

[Mrninjaman]

I recently started up Ret and picked up those three units along with a couple jack kits to start my army, so I'll share a few thoughts on them. Let me get it out and say if you have a 15 pt army and are looking for a core Unit to build off of I would definitely say Invictors.

So for Stormfall, like everyone said they shouldn't really be considered here because they are only 4 models and 5 points not going to do a lot to get you to the next point level. That being said, they are awesome and one of my favorite units in the faction, but shouldn't be the troop base you build off of, they are just too fragile.

MHSF +UA; I think this really depends on your caster and opponent, Their crossbows are amazing with jack hunter and phantom hunter, BUT they are only pow 10. So if you have Ossy or some way to buff them then they can do better but that pow 10 really hurts. I have played most of my ret games with a buddy who plays dwarves and other than on feat turn my MHSF can't do much other than hunt gun bunnies. POW 10 jack hunter doesn't do much against high arm troops and casters, which a lot of other factions have too.

Invictors +UA; honestly the big selling point on them is their flexibility, the have CRA to crack hard targets, and reroll misses so they can deal with high arm and high def. Also they can mix it up in melee if set up right. Also most of the stuff that will help MHSF xbows will help these guys too, another plus if you buy them you don't have to assemble the MHSF yet ^^.

However if you can afford it I would agree with the others that I think Sentinels & MHSF is the best starting point troop wise unless you want to play Ossy or Rayvn. But if you are just playing 25 or 35 pt I would pick up either Invictors or MHSF and get some of our sweet solos

[Murkhadh]

MHSF, then stormfalls, then invictors. Also when you get stormfalls get 2 units, and always bring two units of them or none at all when you field them. Think of them as an 8 man unit that you activate 4 at a time.

[nuvas]

Get the MHSF +UA first. Then make a decision on other units after you've played more.

Also when you get stormfalls get 2 units, and always bring two units of them or none at all when you field them.

Could you elaborate on why you think 2 units of stormfalls are worthwhile when 1 is not?

[Murkhadh]

Get the MHSF +UA first. Then make a decision on other units after you've played more.



Could you elaborate on why you think 2 units of stormfalls are worthwhile when 1 is not?

Because they are so awesome that 4 shots from them is never enough.

and for the points you get 8 bodies which is close to how many useful models are in a standard unit for 10 points which is close to what you pay for a standard unit.

If your using them to kill heavies, 4 brutals "may" get it done, 8 will for sure.

If your carpet bombing an area to kill stealthed things, 4 shots will rarely kill most of them, 8 usually will kill most.

[nuvas]

Because they are so awesome that 4 shots from them is never enough.

and for the points you get 8 bodies which is close to how many useful models are in a standard unit for 10 points which is close to what you pay for a standard unit.

If your using them to kill heavies, 4 brutals "may" get it done, 8 will for sure.

If your carpet bombing an area to kill stealthed things, 4 shots will rarely kill most of them, 8 usually will kill most.

Sounds good, but your post implies that having only 1 unit of stormfalls is bad. Which doesn't seem like the case after your praise for them. Having more is pretty good and I agree with it. But I find success with them on a regular basis with just 1 unit as well.

[Murkhadh]

Sounds good, but your post implies that having only 1 unit of stormfalls is bad. Which doesn't seem like the case after your praise for them. Having more is pretty good and I agree with it. But I find success with them on a regular basis with just 1 unit as well.

If I'm not bringing two units, I would rather spend the 5 points on something else. I don't get enough out of just one unit.

[DigiDjinn]

Right now I own "the box" plus rayven, eEiryss n arcanist. I've seen kaelyssa, rayven & ody played. So for now I'm just looking at units to start expanding & doing my favorite faction justice

[Jestor]

Then I would absolutely choose a ten man unit to bring you to the 25 pt level and possibly a heavy jack kit.

[Xeurian]

If I'm not bringing two units, I would rather spend the 5 points on something else. I don't get enough out of just one unit.

Lets try to clarify this a bit! Hooray obscure explanations!

Let me try to show how people probably see their effectiveness.

Lets say each unit of stormfall archers is worth 1.5 "effectiveness" score. That decimal value's worth of "effectiveness" gets rounded down and is lost potential. So with TWO units of stormfall archers we get a whopping 3 whole "effectiveness" score! Basically people view their effectiveness as increasing exponentially rather than laterally. So two units is not just twice as good... Its WAY better! I guess people see it as an actual loss by taking one point due to just how good they are in a pair!

Anyways... that's how I feel people's opinions on stormfall archers work in my mind...

[Murkhadh]

Sounds good, but your post implies that having only 1 unit of stormfalls is bad. Which doesn't seem like the case after your praise for them. Having more is pretty good and I agree with it. But I find success with them on a regular basis with just 1 unit as well.

If I'm not bringing two units, I would rather spend the 5 points on something else. I don't get enough out of just one unit.

[Gho5t]

I would vote MHSF first and Archers last for a first unit. Archers are pretty helpless in melee, but MHSF and 'Vics can hold their own.

Invictors though... I just never use them anymore, sadly. Every point is so precious, and Sentinels and MHSF are so good... Even Halberdiers!
Invictors are excellent for versatility and to start, but I just never use them anymore. I've been more apt to use Nyss Hunters before them, which may be a phase...

[TurdFerguson]

I use stormfalls in every army. They're so versitile and are good throughout the entire game. I play them second/third wave depending.

[Murkhadh]

I would vote MHSF first and Archers last for a first unit. Archers are pretty helpless in melee, but MHSF and 'Vics can hold their own.

Invictors though... I just never use them anymore, sadly. Every point is so precious, and Sentinels and MHSF are so good... Even Halberdiers!
Invictors are excellent for versatility and to start, but I just never use them anymore. I've been more apt to use Nyss Hunters before them, which may be a phase...

Vics have been making less and less of my lists, in light of that I'm advising the mhsf and stormfalls which are good in most lists.

[darkenn]

MHSF, then stormfalls, then invictors. Also when you get stormfalls get 2 units, and always bring two units of them or none at all when you field them. Think of them as an 8 man unit that you activate 4 at a time.

This!!! Without doubt

[DesertsPower]

Invictors can be fun, but a little underwhelming considering the points. If you're doing scenario play then Invictors are the unit that sits on the enemy's objective the whole game as they are quite difficult to remove. Their offensive capabilities aren't brilliant but I think that may have something to do with me consistently mistiming their mini-feat rather than them actually being bad.

I've never used two units of Stormfalls before, but the one unit I do own has won me games. Don't be put off fielding just one of them! Brutal damage can be game-winning if the opponent misplaces his caster.

The MHSF is so good that my regular opponents refer to them as "those rapey archers". Several of our casters (Ossy & Ravyn especially) synchronise so well with the MHSF that even the slightest mistake can spell doom for your opponent. They're also quite handy as a last-ditch tarpit unit and can be expected to take down high-DEF infantry models in melee by using CMA. Also, Kaelyssa + 2x MHSF + enemy Colossal = dead enemy warcaster, which is hilarious.

[Murkhadh]

Invictors can be fun, but a little underwhelming considering the points. If you're doing scenario play then Invictors are the unit that sits on the enemy's objective the whole game as they are quite difficult to remove. Their offensive capabilities aren't brilliant but I think that may have something to do with me consistently mistiming their mini-feat rather than them actually being bad.

I've never used two units of Stormfalls before, but the one unit I do own has won me games. Don't be put off fielding just one of them! Brutal damage can be game-winning if the opponent misplaces his caster.

The MHSF is so good that my regular opponents refer to them as "those rapey archers". Several of our casters (Ossy & Ravyn especially) synchronise so well with the MHSF that even the slightest mistake can spell doom for your opponent. They're also quite handy as a last-ditch tarpit unit and can be expected to take down high-DEF infantry models in melee by using CMA. Also, Kaelyssa + 2x MHSF + enemy Colossal = dead enemy warcaster, which is hilarious.

Field two units of them before telling others not to be put off fielding one of them.

[Bloodshovel]

Stormfall are a steal at 5 points. they're probably the swiss army knife of our ranged units.

MHSF are more of the scalpel. 10 pts for 11 models isn't bad. they have the ability to get where needed easily, and hit fairly well. under Rhan, I say they're a bit better, because no charges keeps them a little safer.

Invictors are our butter knife. Big clunky butter knife. as negative as that seems, have you ever had toast without butter? try having it with out the knife.

it's pretty much a tossup for me between the stormfall and MHSF, however at 15 points in an open environment without other units to cover the problems I may be lacking answers to by taking MHSF, I say go Stormfall, and spend that other 10 points on a more hard hitting melee unit.

[PG_Emberwild]

Stormfalls are like artillery pieces but can move and shoot in the same activation.

[pritch64]

Invictors are our best overall unit! They have a 19" threat with a combined ranged attack that you can re-roll those pesky snake eye. Then its at least a pow 14 and they don't just die to a stray blast. I love them so much because they make the dice rolls less of a factor!

Now don't get me wrong I love most of our units but Invictors can fit well in every list but Rahn's. Where MHSF go with only Ravyn and ossy. Stormfall's are really good but don't survive anything... So you can ask us all what to buy but in the long run you should get all 3 of them they are all really good! After all our units are the only real reason to get into Ret!

[Murkhadh]

Invictors are our best overall unit!

I can see why your saying that, I used to think so myself when I first started this faction, but after a while I realized this isn't true, best overall would probably be the halbs or the mhsf, halbs have a million abilities making them versatile, and the mhsf shoot well and melee well and just do things no other unit in the game can.

Where MHSF go with only Ravyn and ossy.

This is simply not true.
The MHSF are good with every one of our casters except maybe eVyros.

With rahn you can knock things down or turn them around then shoot them, pow 10's that ignore camped focus and buffs and need 3's to hit will kill a lot of casters

garryth helps their accuracy with death sentence

Kae makes them unchargable for a turn so you can get an extra turn of shooting.

They can help power pVyros's feat, he generally wants a ranged unit (or hyperion)

[Gho5t]

I can see why your saying that, I used to think so myself when I first started this faction, but after a while I realized this isn't true, best overall would probably be the halbs or the mhsf, halbs have a million abilities making them versatile, and the mhsf shoot well and melee well and just do things no other unit in the game can.



This is simply not true.
The MHSF are good with every one of our casters except maybe eVyros.

With rahn you can knock things down or turn them around then shoot them, pow 10's that ignore camped focus and buffs and need 3's to hit will kill a lot of casters

garryth helps their accuracy with death sentence

Kae makes them unchargable for a turn so you can get an extra turn of shooting.

They can help power pVyros's feat, he generally wants a ranged unit (or hyperion)

To build off of Murk's post, the MHSF are also a strong independent unit. It goes with their fluff, too!
Ignoring any spells adding to DEF or ARM as well as Focus overboosting is great, plus with the UA they ignore LOS. They're amazing. With these two incredible abilities, asking for much more would break them. Adding Snipe and Ravyn's feat is already close to broken, but without that they're still amazing.

[Hjiryon]

It really depends on what you're doing with those 15 points.
My own take on it would probably be something like:

Ravyn
Discorida
Min halbs + UA
Stormfalls.

That's a pretty versatile starting force.
To get to 25, add MHSF + UA

To 35:
2nd stormfall unit,
Arcanist,
eEiryss
(1 point left over)

And to 50:
Lots of options - I'm not going to try and cover them all here.

[The Key of E]

I'm going to echo several others here and say MHSF > Stormfalls > Invictors.

Now, having said that I want to clarify that I LOVE my Invictors. Their looks and rules are what first got me interested in Retribution of Scyrah, and ultimately them plus the looks and rules of the Myrmidons cemented my faction choice.

However, I've been having less than stellar results with them on the table. I love their versatility, they're possibly the most flexible unit in a faction full of flexible, adaptable models. But I find they require too much support. They need a Griffon around to Flank with (I've tried other myrmidons for Flank and found them wanting) and they need Aiyanna and Holt for extra punch. That turns your already expensive 12 point unit into a 20 point investment, regardless of what else you take. The MHSF and Stormfalls do well with some support (mostly Magisters or other models that can knock down opponents, or A&H for magic weapons vs. Menoth), but are far less reliant on it.

Invictors are also less "tricksy" than the MHSF or Stormfalls. By that, I mean that even though Invictors are very flexible being effective both in melee and at range, they're very straightforward in both melee and ranged. The MHSF's ability to shoot through things and the Stormfalls' multiple shot types give you more options on the table. So to reiterate, MHSF > Stormfalls > Invictors, overall.

BUT, the OP is looking for how to build up from 15 points. In this case, I would say Stormfalls are out, period. You need a melee screen for them (the best choice being Halberdiers) and you wouldn't be able to do that until 35 points or more. Sentinels are a decent choice because they're powerful and straight forward, but of the two warcasters the OP mentioned, only Kaelyssa would benefit them, Ravyn far less so.

So it comes down to MHSF vs. Invictors. This question has been debated a few times in the past, but in this specific case it really comes down to the concerns the OP mentioned about the MHSF being worse against Hordes. Now, let me clarify that a bit: at 35 points and higher the MHSF do fine against Hordes because they can take out support solos and infantry, making their Beasts more vulnerable to your other models. But at 15-25 points, if you spend your points on MHSF you won't have enough points left for Beast stomping models. In other words, MHSF are fine against hordes are higher point games, but do struggle some at lower points.

So to the OP, if there are a lot of Hordes opponents in your local area, you may want to hold off and purchase the MHSF later, going with Invictors instead. If there are good mix of factions with not too many Hordes, you'll probably be okay with the MHSF. Though you should keep in mind the oft repeated advice, "Just play the models you like best."

EDIT: On further thought, since Invictors need more support than MHSF, they might not be the best choice at lower point games. Like the Stormfalls need a melee screen, the Invictors need support pieces that you may not have room for in 15-25 point games. Maybe MHSF really is the best choice here.

[TurdFerguson]

I can see why your saying that, I used to think so myself when I first started this faction, but after a while I realized this isn't true, best overall would probably be the halbs or the mhsf, halbs have a million abilities making them versatile, and the mhsf shoot well and melee well and just do things no other unit in the game can.



This is simply not true.
The MHSF are good with every one of our casters except maybe eVyros.

With rahn you can knock things down or turn them around then shoot them, pow 10's that ignore camped focus and buffs and need 3's to hit will kill a lot of casters

garryth helps their accuracy with death sentence

Kae makes them unchargable for a turn so you can get an extra turn of shooting.

They can help power pVyros's feat, he generally wants a ranged unit (or hyperion)

+1

Kae's feat is hilarious with them. Walk them up second turn just out of charge range, pop feat, and pop their support pieces. It's almost rageworthy. Kae's feat looks so bad on paper but in practice, I like it more than Ozzy's at times.

[DigiDjinn]

sounds like the mhsf is the best choice to get a ranged unit in a lower point army.. in the 35point n up im looking at a 2x of stormfall.
the invictors sounds like everyone loves them but have a hard time running them. i vaguely get an image of a heavy headbutting another heavy down & the invictors charging in, hacking it to pieces (shedder swarm anyone?).

[DigiDjinn]

double post

[Gho5t]

sounds like the mhsf is the best choice to get a ranged unit in a lower point army.. in the 35point n up im looking at a 2x of stormfall.
the invictors sounds like everyone loves them but have a hard time running them. i vaguely get an image of a heavy headbutting another heavy down & the invictors charging in, hacking it to pieces (shedder swarm anyone?).

I don't believe it's difficult to run the Invictors. The versatility of them makes them easy to use, aside from maybe maneuvering the Flank bonus. What's tricky is justifying their points over other excellent units in the Faction.

In the scenario you described, Sentinels are perfect and will shred almost anything. Invictors are decent in melee, but to approach Sentinel-level destruction, they need a Myrmidon to Flank for them. Still, without Reach, it's tougher to get as many in on a single target, and the Myrmidon itself is likely taking up space, possibly preventing charge lanes on a few 'Vic models.

[Ralphus]

I would have to go with MHSF + UA. You always buy the UA in Retribution. No matter what. They can pull double duty in killing warjacks and support vs Warmachine armies. And killing support and infantry and jamming warbeasts vs Hordes. I like the unit and the really show exactly what Retribution is all about.

We are fast, and we play by our own rules.

[Panzeh]

I have all of the units, and I like them all, but in my 7 minute turns i've been getting more use out of invictors than the other choices. Vics also have virtual immunity to AOEs, which is a vulnerability both MHSF and stormfall has. I think there are definitely matchups where you'll prefer vics, though you definitely pay a lot for really good accuracy in CRAs. I like invictors in Ravyn lists as the tarpit/objective component as they synergize with her while still providing a different look.

[Murkhadh]

I have all of the units, and I like them all, but in my 7 minute turns i've been getting more use out of invictors than the other choices. Vics also have virtual immunity to AOEs, which is a vulnerability both MHSF and stormfall has. I think there are definitely matchups where you'll prefer vics, though you definitely pay a lot for really good accuracy in CRAs. I like invictors in Ravyn lists as the tarpit/objective component as they synergize with her while still providing a different look.

Ever heard of the discordia ?

[Panzeh]

Ever heard of the discordia ?

Since I usually only run one jack, i prefer the Phoenix because it gives me a tool against things like kayazy as well as an arc node, though, understandably stormfalls could handle them too.