So, why did they get rid of SPD +5 charges?

[Lex Icon]

I'm looking at my new MK 2 Circle rules, and I notice that there appears to be no more SPD+5. It's all +2" of move now.

It's not just circle. The Axer's animus, for example, now grants +2".

I always thought that SPD+5 was intelligent game design, since it put a cap on stacking abilities. You can now stack Dog Pile, Bounding and Hunter's Mark with Warped Spd for a Feral Warp Wolf that charges 14". Admittedly, with eKrueger in MK 1 you could get him up to 12", but still.

I thought they nerfed Advance Deploy to blunt the alpha strike, but by changing SPD+5 charges they enabled some alpha strikes that weren't there before.

I don't actually think it will unbalance the game or anything, but it does seem like the opposite of what I think their design goals might have been for MK 2.

Thoughts?

[Demeritus]

It's because it is basically the same thing. When you charged you charged your speed +3 normally and then certain spells and abilities gave you a speed +5 charge which changes to be +2 movement.

In cases of charges, +2 movement and a spd +5 charge end up being a wash.

[CT GAMER]

I'm looking at my new MK 2 Circle rules, and I notice that there appears to be no more SPD+5. It's all +2" of move now.

It's not just circle. The Axer's animus, for example, now grants +2".

I always thought that SPD+5 was intelligent game design, since it put a cap on stacking abilities. You can now stack Dog Pile, Bounding and Hunter's Mark with Warped Spd for a Feral Warp Wolf that charges 14". Admittedly, with eKrueger in MK 1 you could get him up to 12", but still.

I thought they nerfed Advance Deploy to blunt the alpha strike, but by changing SPD+5 charges they enabled some alpha strikes that weren't there before.

I don't actually think it will unbalance the game or anything, but it does seem like the opposite of what I think their design goals might have been for MK 2.

Thoughts?

allowing things to get into melee quickly has always been a fundamental element of WM which is a highly melee-centric game. I saw no indication that MKII was going to be a move away from this core principle...

[althai]

It's because it is basically the same thing. When you charged you charged your speed +3 normally and then certain spells and abilities gave you a speed +5 charge which changes to be +2 movement.

In cases of charges, +2 movement and a spd +5 charge end up being a wash.

You're missing the point. If I cast three spells on a target that all say it may/must make a charge at speed +5, it makes a charge at speed +5. If I cast three spells on a target that all say it may/must make a charge and if it does it gets +2" movement, then it makes a charge with +6" movement, so effectively at speed +9.

[Lex Icon]

You're missing the point. If I cast three spells on a target that all say it may/must make a charge at speed +5, it makes a charge at speed +5. If I cast three spells on a target that all say it may/must make a charge and if it does it gets +2" movement, then it makes a charge with +6" movement, so effectively at speed +9.

Exactly. Those of us who have played many different game systems know that stacking abilities freely is one of the most common ways to break a game.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not saying it's game breaking. I am saying that I find it odd that Privateer is changing something to specifically allow more stacking, which is usually a bad idea. Spd+5 was brilliant because it gave a non-stackable bonus.

[althai]

Well, I think it's pretty clear they changed it on purpose and not by accident. So I guess the next thing to do is put together a circle list that stacks these abilities, and see if you can break it.

[Mutton]

Well, I think it's pretty clear they changed it on purpose and not by accident. So I guess the next thing to do is put together a circle list that stacks these abilities, and see if you can break it.

Done, done, and done. The eKaya Warpwolf bullet is go! 17.5" threat on a Feral if needed, that can be yo-yoed back.

[Creaux]

I was thinking about this last night, and I think that this might be in exchange for the Fury downgrades, reduced effect of terrain and tougher/deadlier 'jacks.

[Ravnak]

The obvious reason why they changed it is thus:


New player: "I use my charge at spd+5 ability and charge you."
Other new player: "So how far is it going to move?"
New player: "Well, its speed is 6. So 6 + 5, and another 3 because you get +3 for charging. So I'm going to charge 14"
Other new player: "Thats what it says, so yeah, god thats good..."





You have been watching, Ravnak puppet theatre. Today was brought to you by the letters A and G, and by the number 6.

[Lex Icon]

The obvious reason why they changed it is thus:


New player: "I use my charge at spd+5 ability and charge you."
Other new player: "So how far is it going to move?"
New player: "Well, its speed is 6. So 6 + 5, and another 3 because you get +3 for charging. So I'm going to charge 14"
Other new player: "Thats what it says, so yeah, god thats good..."

That could very well be the reason, but surely they could have cleaned up the wording instead of changing the mechanic.

"Target model charges at SPD+5 instead of SPD+3" should have done it. I hope you're wrong, because that's not a good reason for the change.

[iknowinternet]

I'd be more than willing to bet that this whole wording snafu is one of the things to change most from the Field Test feedback.

Then again, I could be wrong. It's not like Darius got much better after the field test.

[Duckboy]

The obvious reason why they changed it is thus:


New player: "I use my charge at spd+5 ability and charge you."
Other new player: "So how far is it going to move?"
New player: "Well, its speed is 6. So 6 + 5, and another 3 because you get +3 for charging. So I'm going to charge 14"
Other new player: "Thats what it says, so yeah, god thats good..."





You have been watching, Ravnak puppet theatre. Today was brought to you by the letters A and G, and by the number 6.

That might be the case for a very small amount of people, I don't think it merits change though.

[sharpe]

[QUOTE=Ravnak;14502]The obvious reason why they changed it is thus:


New player: "I use my charge at spd+5 ability and charge you."
Other new player: "So how far is it going to move?"
New player: "Well, its speed is 6. So 6 + 5, and another 3 because you get +3 for charging. So I'm going to charge 14"
Other new player: "Thats what it says, so yeah, god thats good..."


Thats hillarious. This could be a whole comedy routine.

[fildrigar]

I was thinking about this last night, and I think that this might be in exchange for the Fury downgrades, reduced effect of terrain and tougher/deadlier 'jacks.

Except that the change took place in WM, too.

[The Happy Anarchist]

I think a big balancing factor for that change is the nature of control areas limiting how useful that is for Hordes.

[Cloud-Gatherer]

There are still "charge at SPD+5" abilities, including the original, Boundless Charge.

[Duckboy]

There are still "charge at SPD+5" abilities, including the original, Boundless Charge.

ummm.........ok, then what is this thread about?

[tonyzahn]

I'm pretty sure that even with the old version reading SPD+5", you could still stack with other things. The wording in the new version doesn't really change anything.

[Fynox]

SPD+5 did end up being SPD+8 in one person's I played opinion. And trust me, I was called many a foul thing upon correcting this.

[MagnustheJust]

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I thought multiple bonuses of the same type did not stack... I swear I remember reading that somewhere!

[Lex Icon]

I'm pretty sure that even with the old version reading SPD+5", you could still stack with other things. The wording in the new version doesn't really change anything.

You could stack SPD+5 with +2" of movement, but not SPD+5 with another SPD +5

[Lex Icon]

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I thought multiple bonuses of the same type did not stack... I swear I remember reading that somewhere!

Bonuses of the same name don't stack. So you can't use two Hunter's Marks from two Wayfarers for SPD +4. But two different abilities that both give SPD +2 can stack.

[Lex Icon]

ummm.........ok, then what is this thread about?

Because SPD+5 appears to have been removed from Hordes entirely

[Faultie]

Because SPD+5 appears to have been removed from Hordes entirely

As well as from Warmachine. It has been removed from the game entirely, as far as I can tell.

[Duckboy]

Boundless Charge is Speed +2 with pathfinder or you can charge with Speed +3.

Just didn't understand how he gets speed +5 with boundless charge still.

[Cloud-Gatherer]

Holy crap, you know what? Boundless Charge is +2" of movement and Pathfinder now. It's functionally the same, so I didn't even notice the shift in wording.

[Duckboy]

Holy crap, you know what? Boundless Charge is +2" of movement and Pathfinder now. It's functionally the same, so I didn't even notice the shift in wording.

np, Glad i could clear things up.

[Brandubh]

We'll see how it plays out. I'm certainly not complaining. But the fact that I can take a Shadowhorn and put Windblown, Bounding, and Hunters Mark out on the table then charge 20" is pretty insane and unnerving. Don't get me wrong. I plan on doing it. But it could be abused.

[darisus]

Isn't there something about only one animus and spell on a target at one time? so you could stack a max of 2 things one being a spell and one being an animus. speed +2 and spd +2, and then your +3 for charging to a max of +7.

[Duckboy]

Isn't there something about only one animus and spell on a target at one time? so you could stack a max of 2 things one being a spell and one being an animus. speed +2 and spd +2, and then your +3 for charging to a max of +7.

Most likely is false, if it isn't, that is OP.

[Cloud-Gatherer]

We'll see how it plays out. I'm certainly not complaining. But the fact that I can take a Shadowhorn and put Windblown, Bounding, and Hunters Mark out on the table then charge 20" is pretty insane and unnerving. Don't get me wrong. I plan on doing it. But it could be abused.

That looks more like 15" to me. Bounding Leap is only useable after a Full Advance (I assume that's where you're getting the extra 5"). If you did use the Full Advance instead of charging, that gets you up to 17". Either way, by that time you're very likely to have left your warlock's Control area, so you'll make three initial attacks at decent MAT and lowish POW (for a heavy beast), then probably get killed next turn because the Shadowhorn isn't that tough.

Isn't there something about only one animus and spell on a target at one time? so you could stack a max of 2 things one being a spell and one being an animus. speed +2 and spd +2, and then your +3 for charging to a max of +7.

One friendly animus, one friendly UPKEEP spell. Non-upkeeps are not restricted that way.

[PPS_DC]

I'm looking at my new MK 2 Circle rules, and I notice that there appears to be no more SPD+5. It's all +2" of move now.

It's not just circle. The Axer's animus, for example, now grants +2".

I always thought that SPD+5 was intelligent game design, since it put a cap on stacking abilities. You can now stack Dog Pile, Bounding and Hunter's Mark with Warped Spd for a Feral Warp Wolf that charges 14". Admittedly, with eKrueger in MK 1 you could get him up to 12", but still.

In MkI, it's true there were a number of "charge at SPD+5" abilities, but there were also abilities that provided +X SPD or +X movement.

Say you have +2 SPD, +3 movement, and you charge at SPD+5, how far exactly do you move when you charge?

The stacking is a development concern to be sure, and it's the reason that certain abilities have been consolidated (Hunter's Mark and Storm Beacon, to name one example), but it also keeps things clear, which is one of the goals of MkII.