arc node

[Bormaigo]

do mercs need an arc node or would it make some casters too effective?

[PG_LEJKaya]

Ashlynn and probably all the dwarfs would be awesome!

[moddball]

do mercs need an arc node or would it make some casters too effective?

Magnus and EMagnus have the arcnode. Fiona makes her own arcnode. Let's face it we have we more than Khador.

[PG_Ironmonger]

^beat me to it. Arcnodes are rare and precious few across most of the IK. The fact that mags has one is really dependent on his mechanical genius derived from decades of training with the Cygnarian elite. Rhul are always portrayed as being amazing at the mechanical side of things, but not so much the arcantrik. MacBain, Dami, the pirates... I just can't see it happening, and think it'd cut across the fluffs' grain to too far an extent.

[absent]

I don't think arcnodes would set any of the casters too far over the top, you pay a huge premium for that ability most of the time and mercs are pretty well designed to function without.

[PG_Salix060907]

I would probably cast more spells in a game than I do right now if I had an arc node.

[Ricky Racoon]

I don't think arcnodes would set any of the casters too far over the top, you pay a huge premium for that ability most of the time and mercs are pretty well designed to function without.

Really, it's just Ashlynn who would be over-the-top. AND HOW!

[absent]

why? Distraction is nice, but it only works on warriors. It's not as good as crippling grasp. It's on a caster worse at casting than crippling grasp. I don't see it.

[John of Arc]

Mercs are designed to function without arc nodes, same as Khador. We don't have a lot offensive spells that we need to throw around; we depend more on upkeeps and other friendly stuff like that. Sylys gave us all the spell support we need. For everyone except Ashlyn, any time I'd want to cast an offensive spell, it's usually late game when I'm close enough anyway. Fluff reasons aside, even if we did get an arc node, I wouldn't pay the points for it in most lists.

[Ricky Racoon]

why? Distraction is nice, but it only works on warriors. It's not as good as crippling grasp. It's on a caster worse at casting than crippling grasp. I don't see it.

Then perhaps you arn't looking hard enough. First, yes, it's not crippling grasp. It's not a 3 cost upkeep, which means that Ashlynn could, theoretically, throw out 3 distracts a turn. Crippling grasp represents half of pDenny's focus, and she doesn't have a whole lot of great shooting to take advantage of the debuffs, unlike Ashlynn, who by default has a better selection of shooting units. Which means that a DEF debuff vs warriors can often be the difference between hitting on a single shot, or hitting on a CRA, and so long as the armor isn't too high, Ashlynn has the volume of fire available to take advantage of the debuff.

Gallows is also a rather good spell, and an Arc node would make Gallows a bit easier to pull off and use aggressively with Ashlynn.

Oh and, "only warrior models" isn't exactly a narrow category. You're likely to find warriors all over the place, and likely to find ranged warriors or melee warriors who are key to enemy assassination vectors.

But yeah, you're right, it's not Crippling grasp.

[absent]

Then perhaps you arn't looking hard enough. First, yes, it's not crippling grasp. It's not a 3 cost upkeep, which means that Ashlynn could, theoretically, throw out 3 distracts a turn. Crippling grasp represents half of pDenny's focus, and she doesn't have a whole lot of great shooting to take advantage of the debuffs, unlike Ashlynn, who by default has a better selection of shooting units. Which means that a DEF debuff vs warriors can often be the difference between hitting on a single shot, or hitting on a CRA, and so long as the armor isn't too high, Ashlynn has the volume of fire available to take advantage of the debuff.

Gallows is also a rather good spell, and an Arc node would make Gallows a bit easier to pull off and use aggressively with Ashlynn.

Oh and, "only warrior models" isn't exactly a narrow category. You're likely to find warriors all over the place, and likely to find ranged warriors or melee warriors who are key to enemy assassination vectors.

But yeah, you're right, it's not Crippling grasp.

gallows isn't very good, i play a faction with gallows and an arcnode, and i won't even play the arcnodes with the gallows caster fairly often, and the arcnode is a combusting nomad with more health and a gun, that regenerates every turn. Distraction is really nice, but what is she hitting with her foc 6, without boosting, that you want a defense debuff on? So you are talking about two distractions, then a naked arm 15 caster with 14 health, so she needs to be really far back. That means no hand cannon, no sword, and a very limited feat. Also I mention only warrior models because colossals exist and if you take a shooting army to take advantage of distraction, and your jack is an arcnode, how would you deal with one? you would basicly be getting a talon with an arcnode probably, and i don't think all of a sudden ashlynn would become dominant. But you are probably right, i didn't look deeply enough into how insane it would be, my 9 years experience with the game is all but worthless =P It might be worthwhile to have with ashlynn but it wouldn't be broken or over the top or however you want to describe it. It would be possibly an option, which is much different than those other phrases.

Imo anyway, who knows.

[absent]

I actually think shae would be pretty cool with an arcnode, pow 15 auto knock down spells are pretty good =)

[PG_vytzka]

We can't get arc nodes because of Ashlynn. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.


(I'd rather have Ashlynn than arc nodes actually...)

[whats82]

Actually Bart and Shae both have very solid offensive spells with great utility. Arcnodes aren't necessary but the availability of one would open more options.

[Ricky Racoon]

Absent: The triple distract is an extremely powerful tool against any warriors. The debuffs are coupled with an army that has the capability to dish out considerable ranged firepower. Even a single distract requires Ashlynn to be quite close to harms way, which works out well with her superior survivability(Say what you will, but Denny, in any form, isn't as survivable as Ashlynn), but does force a more aggressive, dangerous stance. With an Arcnode, she would be able to safely distract.

This also goes for Shae(Blow the man down is an awesome spell, but risky for shae), and Bart would go through the roof. One thing about Mercenary casters is that as a general rule, they are quite survivable characters. Gorten Grundback, Shae, and Ashlynn are extremely difficult to kill, with the balance of MErcs being fairly tough themselves. You'll notice the Mercs with the worst defenses or defensive options are also the three who get arcnodes: Magnii and Fiona. They end up being fairly survivable due to a combination of feats and their ability to use their magic offensively from a safe distance. Most Merc casters are fairly potent in melee as well. This seems to be an obvious design policy: factions without access to arcnodes typically have pretty capable and survivable casters(Khador, as another example, many hordes warlocks) to offset their need to be closer to the action while using their magic.

Would it make Mercs terribly, horribly, uber nasty broken levels of good? Nah. Would it dramatically increase the power of the faction as a whole? Yes.

[Ger]

It's not just distraction on Ashlynn that would be nasty with an arc node. Twister would be pretty mean too. Use it to conk out a few models and put a bunch of cloud templates up blocking LOS. Potentially stopping charges.

The thing about arc nodes is they increase magic threat ranges by control area + base size. So for Ashlynn that 14" Distraction goes to 26"+base size. For Gorten his 14" Molten Metal goes to 24". Bart's Deadweight has the same numbers as Ashlynn's distraction and is pretty sweet from long range.

Mind it really wouldn't break mercs to get an arc node alone. It'd be a substantial boost in power but we only have one Foc 7 warcaster. Everything else is 6 with the exception of Gorten whom is 5. Magic to hit 6 without a bunch of ways to buff it isn't outlandish and will often need +1 focus to boost to hit.

Remember Wyshnyaller would only be useful for the free upkeep and arcane secrets for arc node purposes. Which is pretty solid but Spiritual Conduit goes to waste. The Squire's pretty much superior for arc nodes given the +2 ctrl and actual free focus. It'd be better to drop upkeeps and cast as much as you can if you are going for a magic assassination. For not-cygnar The Skarlock provides much more focus efficiency. While Cryx and Cygnar both have a number of Warcasters at focus 7 and up.

The real question would be what else does the arc node come with. Is it a good jack in and of itself? Is it just an arc node? There's a big difference in a Lancer vs a Deathripper vs a Revenger.

I think the real danger of giving us mercs an arc node is most of us are used to not having one. So if we got one we'd likely adapt to using it in a very combined arms manner. Where other factions go "oh arc node" and typically under value the rest of the jack I don't think we'd have that issue. I mean look at how we treat our Renegades. Of course Magni don't do a ton with arced spells.

[MagnustheJust]

I just made a funny in my head...

Telgesh Mark reads -[paraphrased] "target friendly model counts as arc node".


Make Galleon the arc node!!

[Methoderik]

gallows isn't very good,

What!? Man, one of the most effective tools in my Ashlynn tool box. Oh you want to hover outside my threat range... GET OVER HERE! And take this Nomad, Forge Guard or Rocinante to the face like a man!

And yeah an arc node could get a little nutty, but I would use it.

[absent]

Borrow a lancer for a couple games and honestly tell me it was a better inclusion than a nomad in your force, and i'll stop and listen, until then i'm going to keep my assessment.

[lastspartacus]

I can't honestly say I would spend the points on a node. The meta has shifted way far away from the node heavy mk1, offensive casting isn't what it used to be. Its a big points investment just to extend your ranges a bit, but for a few special casters. I wouldn't use one, except possibly with ashlyn. A character vanguard with an arcnode would be amazing. 8 points and give it some stat buffs.

[MrGloverGlover]

I can't honestly say I would spend the points on a node. The meta has shifted way far away from the node heavy mk1, offensive casting isn't what it used to be. Its a big points investment just to extend your ranges a bit, but for a few special casters. I wouldn't use one, except possibly with ashlyn. A character vanguard with an arcnode would be amazing. 8 points and give it some stat buffs.

Not sure that would be the best 'jack upon which to mount an arc node. I mean typically it's going to be within 2" of the caster to shield guard anyway, right?

[Defenstrator]

why? Distraction is nice, but it only works on warriors. It's not as good as crippling grasp. It's on a caster worse at casting than crippling grasp. I don't see it.

Crippling Grasp is definately awesome. On the other hand you are still allowed to shoot. If I had an Arc Node I would be casting Dirstraction a lot more. As it is Wishnailer is really upped my use of it and it is a brutal spell. No shooting you're easier to hit, and elite troops are MAT 5? It is a freaking brutal spell. On a focus 7 caster with an arc node it would probably be broken.

Of course that 6 focus does limit things a lot . EStryker has Rebuke but doesn't get out of control with it due to that 6 focus stat. So it might be possible.

[lastspartacus]

Vanguard is about so much more than shield guard, which has been nerfed pretty stupidly. Its got the speed, defense, and profile of a light jack, with the durability nearly of a solid heavy. Plus really nice weapons for a light as well. I just love the thing. With the gun it can even be offensive without engaging, something few nodes can do.

[Ger]

You've...you've seen the Errata? Right Last Sparty? Right?

I'd take a Talon with an Arc Node for 6 points. Yes I said it.

[Choco]

MacBain!!! with an arc node? Um... Jack Hammer and he doesn't have to be on the front lines to use it? Energizer to get that node in just the right spot? Damiano would love it to be able to bounce his spells around to multiple units in a round. Gorten would actually cast Molten Metal to help soften or finish off a jack. Ashlynn and her Distractions. Constance would have a node in Mercs for the second half of her feat turn when she has a ton of focus to assassinate the opposing caster. Not to sound like a broken record, we are built like Khador. Our spells have longer range to compensate for the lack of Nodes, so then adding 10-14 inches onto an already 10 in. range is very strong for us.

[lastspartacus]

You've...you've seen the Errata? Right Last Sparty? Right?

I'd take a Talon with an Arc Node for 6 points. Yes I said it.

I haven't if it was included in one. Last I was told, an Infernal had ruled Shield Guard worked as the SG model has to be in los. I think I just trusted it, come to think of it... am I happily wrong?

[MagnustheJust]

I haven't if it was included in one. Last I was told, an Infernal had ruled Shield Guard worked as the SG model has to be in los. I think I just trusted it, come to think of it... am I happily wrong?

Well then brother-man... Let me enlighten you!!

From page 7 of the Errata...

Mercenaries
VANGUARD. SHIElD GUARD.
Remove the tactical tip and replace the text of Shield Guard
with the following:
Once per round, when a friendly model is directly hit by a ranged
attack during your opponent’s turn while within 2˝ of this model,
you can choose to have this model directly hit instead. This model
is automatically hit and suffers all damage and effects. This model
cannot use Shield Guard if it is incorporeal, knocked down, or
stationary.

[MagnustheJust]

Oh... and FYI - This is for ALL shield guard models!!

So the Ogrun Bokur is up there in the running for the best light warjack in the game!!

[Ger]

There's some silly stuff going on with the new Shield Guard and AoE templates. I'm not actually sure how it's working.

[MagnustheJust]

There's some silly stuff going on with the new Shield Guard and AoE templates. I'm not actually sure how it's working.

The rules are fine... it's the players who are confused.

[MrGloverGlover]

The rules are fine... it's the players who are confused.

Can either of you elaborate?

[MagnustheJust]

Far too many converts from $40k, who are used to having to decipher the way a rule works, and are confused by something that works the way it should the first time around...

[lastspartacus]

Well then brother-man... Let me enlighten you!!

From page 7 of the Errata...

Mercenaries
VANGUARD. SHIElD GUARD.
Remove the tactical tip and replace the text of Shield Guard
with the following:
Once per round, when a friendly model is directly hit by a ranged
attack during your opponent’s turn while within 2˝ of this model,
you can choose to have this model directly hit instead. This model
is automatically hit and suffers all damage and effects. This model
cannot use Shield Guard if it is incorporeal, knocked down, or
stationary.

So...a perfect win for logic. Excellent. My joy in the Bokur and Vangaurd is now complete.

[Ger]

Far too many converts from $40k, who are used to having to decipher the way a rule works, and are confused by something that works the way it should the first time around...

Errr and how does it work then Magnus? Your just grouchly complaining....

Specifically. You crit devastate a model. A Shield guard model takes the direct hit. Where does the AoE template go?

[MrGloverGlover]

Ooh ooh!

*raises hand*

On the Vanguard?

[PG_Salix060907]

It goes on the shield guard model. At least that is what I think happens. A vanguard takes the hit, and an AOE only resolves on a direct hit right? .....Am I missing something here?

[Thamarite Merc]

Ooh ooh!

*raises hand*

On the Vanguard?

+1

(except the Shield Guard model is a Bokur off course)

Would someone kindly elaborate the problem, as I don't see it?

[Thamarite Merc]

and I repeat..... Err, maybe not

[sleet01]

Errr and how does it work then Magnus? Your just grouchly complaining....

Specifically. You crit devastate a model. A Shield guard model takes the direct hit. Where does the AoE template go?

Read the rule. The *targeted* model is the location of the AOE, whether Shield Guard is used or not. So the AOE remains centered on the initial target, but the SG model can take all effects and damage instead of the initial target. So it's possible to have the SG model thrown backward into the initial target, but this is nothing new; the same thing could happen with Sucker or Sacrificial Pawn already.

FYI, this makes Shield Guard awesome for protecting Colossals from Gorman's Black Oil. He'll likely directly hit the Colossal if he's in range, but the SG model takes the effects... and the AOE is too small to affect any other models if it stays centered on the Colossal, so only the SG model will see *any* effect.

[lastspartacus]

...PP has to be weeping at this point.