Dealing with Gun Mages and snipe?

[Mr-Furious]

I'm supposed to be playing against a 25 point Cygnar list in our LGS league. Battlebox contents are required for both of us but I know that my opponent will be bringing gun mages and black 13 as well. I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to bring when I saw that his gun mages ignore Stealth.

So far I have played 2 different lists against other opponents with less ranged attacks.

Standard Battlebox
+ max Bane Thrall unit
+ UA

and

Standard Battlebox
+ min Bane Thrall unit
+ WSC
+ Machine Wraith

I believe putting a wraith on the board against this cygnar player will be a wash since so many magic ranged attacks, and true sight. Are there any thoughts on how to make the best of my battlebox + 11 more points to deal with this? I was thinking about adding a max BThrall unit without the UA, plus a Bloat Thrall and a Necrotech.

Any ideas?

[ZombieWar]

try satyxis raiders. they will be def 16 (18 in cover) with pathfinder and should make it to the line relatively unhurt.

[Decade]

Raiders + Witch are one option. Another is the nyss hunters (though if you're new at this they're a notorious bear to assemble). With Denny's debuffs, you can perforate a gunmage line easily. And if he leaves Stryker out in the open, a volley of CGAs can take him down if he's been parasite/feated.

I'd actually recommend against banes in this case, because Lynch's fire beacon can strip their main defensive effect, and gunmages that can see banes can tear banes apart.

[Mr-Furious]

He also mentioned something about jack marshaling his Charger (I think it was the charger.. the one with the big gun) to the Gun mages so it gets all the fancy shots as well. I didn't know marshaling did that, but that's beside the point. Just more shooting to deal with. I do have a unit of Raiders however, the gun mages have true sight so doesn't that ruin the Witch's mini-feat?

[ZombieWar]

the witch's minifeat is WM for a turn. force barrier does not get nullified by true sight or whatever it is they have.

[Scottl1]

No the sea witch does power swell which is like a turn as a weapon master.

Jack marshalling doesnt do the fancy ammo. It's that character when he's jack marshalling he can do the normal jack marshal plus ammo type. Satyxi raiders are very good vs cygnar since even gun mages aiming need 7s to hit raiders with the sea with ranged attacks due to force barrier. lol Plus they lose the ability to see stealth if the officer dies. Then all he has to "see" Denny would be the black 13th.

[vintersbastard]

Plus they lose the ability to see stealth if the officer dies.

No, they don't. Tactics stay around, unlike the Runeshot ability.

[Scottl1]

Ah right forgot it was a tactics ability.

[Obeisance]

My solution to Gun Mages was the same as WGI spam.

eDenny feats.
Arcs Marked for Death if WGI.
McNaile minifeats for Nyss.
Nyss shred everything at huge range and crazy RAT.

[Scottl1]

Can't use edenny in the battlebox games though otherwise Terminus can also lol at gun mages.

[Obeisance]

If you can't change casters, the only real solution is Raiders.

[Mr-Furious]

Looks like Raiders are in. Thanks for all the pointers guys, I'll let ya know how it goes

Also, if someone can clarify who knows.. What exactly does the Charger get if he's marshaled to the Gun Mage character. Apologies for not knowing the proper names of the units, this is one of my first experiences against Cygar.

[ZombieWar]

crit brutal is pretty common

[Mr-Furious]

Ok so I just read up on the jack marshaling the Charger to the Gun Mage Officer. Have a couple questions: If I kill the Officer, does the marshaled Jack go atonomous or do I have to kill the whole unit of gun mages? Secondly, does the Charger gain tactics: true sight? It's not technically part of the unit is it?

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

You've got crippling grasp and the withering. You don't really have to fear those gun mages no matter what infantry you choose.

[Mr-Furious]

It's the mages plus everything else. No arc node is going to last more than a turn if they want it dead, and snipe + truesight can lay a beat down on Denny if he gets good positioning on an arced earthquake.

[Crate123]

You have to kill the entire unit before the jack goes autonomous. It does not get any of the tactics, it is not part of the unit so no true sight.
If the officer dies, the unit can still jack marshal but it loses the rune bullets. Remember, if a charger wants to use its Powerful Attack ability, it has to spend focus doing it, the pseudo focus a jack marshal gives is not enough which is the main reason most people dont marshal the charger.

[Happy Scrappy Hero Pup]

It's the mages plus everything else. No arc node is going to last more than a turn if they want it dead, and snipe + truesight can lay a beat down on Denny if he gets good positioning on an arced earthquake.

No arcnode has to last more than a turn to get CP off. And DEF 15 ain't shabby. He can blow a whole turn shooting at that, which only works in your favor.

[Rumor]

Could also be a time to use pDennys feat defensively, if you catch the Gun mages in her feat bubble and run Raiders into melee with them you are probably not losing a single Raider that turn. Could also Camp your focus that turn to try and lure him into taking some pot shots at Denny with the B13 etc.. then next turn wreck his army.

AD + Run + Reach = crazy jam range for the Raiders, let him take 1st turn if you can, he will move up, nothing will be in range to shoot and you just run those Raiders at him, once he is in melee all his shooting is boned.

If he is going to play non Page 5 like and back up + shoot, back up + shoot etc... then insist you play a scenario as this evens the playing field up vs those kind of lame gunline tactics.

[Thamarite Merc]

You have to kill the entire unit before the jack goes autonomous. It does not get any of the tactics, it is not part of the unit so no true sight.
If the officer dies, the unit can still jack marshal but it loses the rune bullets. Remember, if a charger wants to use its Powerful Attack ability, it has to spend focus doing it, the pseudo focus a jack marshal gives is not enough which is the main reason most people dont marshal the charger.

The gun mages don't have jack marshall on the unit, other than for example the Devil Dogs, Highshields or Dawnguard Sentinels, so killing the Dude should make the jack autonomous.

And while the jack doesn't get True Sight, he will most likely benefit from Fire Beacon, until you get Lynch killed.

[Sheer_Falacy]

Jack Marshall is only ever on th unit commander, but it does get passed down if the unit commander dies, even if the other models in the unit didn't have it listed.

[Mr-Furious]

Could also be a time to use pDennys feat defensively, if you catch the Gun mages in her feat bubble and run Raiders into melee with them you are probably not losing a single Raider that turn. Could also Camp your focus that turn to try and lure him into taking some pot shots at Denny with the B13 etc.. then next turn wreck his army.

AD + Run + Reach = crazy jam range for the Raiders, let him take 1st turn if you can, he will move up, nothing will be in range to shoot and you just run those Raiders at him, once he is in melee all his shooting is boned.

If he is going to play non Page 5 like and back up + shoot, back up + shoot etc... then insist you play a scenario as this evens the playing field up vs those kind of lame gunline tactics.

Luckily we are playing Kill Box, because I've seen plenty of Cygnar at my LGS pull that backup, shoot, backup, shoot game.

[Bronze]

Luckily we are playing Kill Box, because I've seen plenty of Cygnar at my LGS pull that backup, shoot, backup, shoot game.

Killbox is not a scenario. And if you are only playing with that as a stand-alone condition, then you will still see the same sort of behavior. No one will need to defend a zone or commit to an objective and the same problem will occur. I would stongly suggest using full 2012 scenarios for each and every game...but vary it up. Don't use just a single instance of one as well. All scenarios favor different types of lists.

[Drzombieface]

One of the few things I bring out my Raiders for is dealing with Shootypewpew Cygnar lists. They're always a good bet with dealing with them.

[Patryn]

If he is going to play non Page 5 like and back up + shoot, back up + shoot etc... then insist you play a scenario as this evens the playing field up vs those kind of lame gunline tactics.

I always found this argument a bit funny. One of Cygnar's strengths is said to be shooting, and yet people consider it fair to force them to hold an objective that heavily favors factions with strong infantry that they don't have.

[Mordekiem]

I always found this argument a bit funny. One of Cygnar's strengths is said to be shooting, and yet people consider it fair to force them to hold an objective that heavily favors factions with strong infantry that they don't have.

Agreed. If you are playing Cryx and using all those tricks then shooting is Cygnar's "trick". Complaining about someonoe using tactics and movement to counter you is non-page 5. Play like YOU got a pair and suck it up.

I play both factions and cryx is one of the best match ups oftentimes for Cygnar. They got alot of tools to deal with Cryx tricks. But Cryx has a bunch of their own, too. But normal solutions or moar banes doesn't always apply to them very well.

Enjoy your game! Sounds like you will learn alot.

[PG_Xardian]

Raiders are excellent with UA.

Bloat Thralls can be fun against gun mages. AOEs are murder to gun mages.

Rev cannons can be fun with rengrave to get them shooting straight.

Either AOE option can work with Raiders since the UA makes them immune to blast damage. Run to engage mages, pelt the melee with blasts that can only hurt the enemy.

[Aggy]

In my opinion, at low point games, Cygnar is pretty weak. So long as you don't play to their strong side. If you try to outshoot them you will lose, if you force them into melee though you will win more times than not. I have beat a striker list that fielded the B13th by running with 30 points of infantry. There just wasn't enough shooting to kill all of them, and the eventual collision saw the B13th dead just before striker got feated bane knights to the face. You have to overwhelm them. You have to do threat saturation by giving too many targets to effectively deal with. At low points this is going to be hard. I suggest running Satyxis Raiders because they are fast and hard to hit Vs range. It will be a hard fought win if you succeed, and a horrible defeat if all goes wrong. Personally I hate Cygnar gun lines, but against a scenario it isn't as bad.

[various]

Another vote for the Satyxis Raiders+UA as the cure to your Cygnar related woes. As an added bonus they can get Backlash damage against the enemy Caster if you go after their Jacks, but given their low P+S you probably only want to go after light Jacks to do this.

[Rumor]

I always found this argument a bit funny. One of Cygnar's strengths is said to be shooting, and yet people consider it fair to force them to hold an objective that heavily favors factions with strong infantry that they don't have.

Nahh playing page 5 like would be blowing you away enough that he can then match/beat you in melee and heading into the zones, or using his heavies to contest zones and blowing you away while you try and clear the zone of said heavies. Backup and shoot is not playing like you have a pair, if it was we wouldnt have scenarios and killbox etc..

[Sanctjud]

Debuffs + Power Swell = Colossal slapped.. unless pHaley is around... :-/

[CeltKhan]

All you really need is Deneghra and an arcnode. Withering and Crippling Grasp will drop them to Def 10. Hit them with a Venom and all you need is not-snakes to hit and they're dead before you roll damage.

Your Defiler will need 6s to hit.

[Bronze]

I always found this argument a bit funny. One of Cygnar's strengths is said to be shooting, and yet people consider it fair to force them to hold an objective that heavily favors factions with strong infantry that they don't have.

No. The ONLY way that the game has significant balance is because of the scenarios. And that is the reason that they were introduced on the first place. Cygnar'does' have to hold scenarios just like every other faction. That's a good thing. Yes, they are strong on range, and that DOES help them in scenarios. By eliminating the majority of the threats as they approach before they can add significant threats. They have just as much if not a better opportunity at scenario victories as other factions. All it is doing is preventing cheap tactics and boring matchups for players. War,machine is not War machine without scenarios. Even though we all play some without them every now and then. Regardless of faction, if you can't handle scenarios, then you need to step your game up and put more effort and tactics into list construction