What's the Benefit to Living Models?

[Sardonic Artery]

Got into this discussion the other night: Save avoiding 'dominate undead,' what's the perk of being a living model in this game? You crap your pants and flee for many reasons, you get snacked on, plenty of models see you and get better at killing you...

Seems like the undead get all the perks.

[niceas]

I don't know - not being controlled by a megalomanical psychopath working for a God-Dragon would seem like a perk to me.

[whitesox]

They grant souls to a skorne warlock when they die

[PG_Deist]

They are few and far between. For Skorne and Menoth, we can only collect souls from friendly living models. So that is something!

[jandrese]

Generally slightly better statlines than an equivalent undead trooper. That's mostly it.

[watchgeorgerock]

you get to cost more points!

[PG_RevGeoff]

1)you don't alert the enemy that you are coming with sounds of moaning and that lovely smell
2)you can't be taken over by any gators or crazy young women with large swords
3)yes your stats are generally better for the cost
4)you can look forward to being processed into necrite, meat fuel for our Kraken, or souls for our casters

[rpavers]

Can't cast primal on wolds... Poor fellas.

[rwould]

Skorne slingers don't get an extra dice against you.

[GreenJello]

Seems like the undead get all the perks.

You know what, take your elitist, life-ist bigotry and post it some place else!

All joking aside, being undead is a perk, just like all the other abilities. (I mean what's the downside to being a Weaponmaster, pathfinder, or fearless?)

This might change if they ever decide to start adding liabilities to the game, like weakness to certain damage types or the like. I'm surprised that Menoth doesn't have some sort of Cleric solo with the ability to turn undead. Maybe it's a huge balance issue, too good against somethings, really bad against others.

[PG_Draxos]

Generally slightly better statlines than an equivalent undead trooper. That's mostly it.

I'm sorry what? I couldn't hear you over the stupid stat line of banes

[razcalking]

There is none, just like there's no advantage to being Non-Fearless. Undead is an advantage some models get.

[Sheer_Falacy]

I'm sorry what? I couldn't hear you over the stupid stat line of banes

Speed 5, mat 6, 12/15? Banes are amazing but it doesn't come from their stat line.

Undead tend to have low defense.

And, as people said, undead is an advantage. Construct is pretty nice too on units, but it's very rare.

The only change undead needs is for PP to stop making Anti-living only abilities, or at least fewer.

[juckto]

What do living models get that undead don't? Well let's see...
Shield wall
Assault and battery
Berserk
Defensive line
Ambush
Camouflage
Reform
Gang
Backstab
Parry
Sniper
Combined attacks
Ranked attacks
Suppressing fire
Counter charge
Swift hunter
Spell ward

... Shall i go on?

[PG_The Captain]

Undead models don't know how to load a Mariner's cannon. Worth remembering when playing Skarre's NQ theme force.

[pavel0]

What do living models get that undead don't? Well let's see...
Shield wall
Assault and battery
Berserk
Defensive line
Ambush
Camouflage
Reform
Gang
Backstab
Parry
Sniper
Combined attacks
Ranked attacks
Suppressing fire
Counter charge
Swift hunter
Spell ward

... Shall i go on?

No thanks, that was obnoxious enough.

Bring living models to fuel your soul fueled casters/locks. Most things are living so at least the company can share the misery.

[Scottl1]

Our living don't fuel stuff. Read cull soul posting. We need living ENEMY models thanx.

[Drzombieface]

Undead don't complain about worker's comp when I throw them at the enemy.

[Auracco]

If you're alive EVlad doesn't get an extra damage dice against you...

[ricefrisbeetreats]

This might change if they ever decide to start adding liabilities to the game, like weakness to certain damage types or the like. I'm surprised that Menoth doesn't have some sort of Cleric solo with the ability to turn undead. Maybe it's a huge balance issue, too good against somethings, really bad against others.

Precursors used to have Banefire (I think that's what it's called). I think they dumped a lot of those abilities because they were only good in certain instances.

Undead generally have lower CMD, so they have less ability to spread out. Besides the Banes, being an Undead is really just like having Fearless and avoids the disadvantage of being a living model.

[DesertSpiral]

+1 MAt seems to be the general perk to being living.

[kolonelk]

Being living is hella sweet like having elemental attacks without continuous effects. Or having Shield Guard in its current form.

[Hai-pe-neki]

Being alive in the Iron Kingdoms simply sucks. Let's face it!
And Deneghra got "Seduction" in her epic for, so death also makes you more sexy!

What do living models get that undead don't? Well let's see...

Gang
Combined attacks


... Shall i go on?

Just cast a look at the Revenant Crew riflemen!

[Septimus]

I'm sure we'll find out the benefits of being alive when the IKRPG hits the shelves.

Until then, it's all speculative.

[Demeritus]

Being living is hella sweet like having elemental attacks without continuous effects. Or having Shield Guard in its current form.

That one made me laugh.

[Mustakrakish]

Got into this discussion the other night: Save avoiding 'dominate undead,' what's the perk of being a living model in this game? You crap your pants and flee for many reasons, you get snacked on, plenty of models see you and get better at killing you...

Seems like the undead get all the perks.

Welcome to any game with an Undead Faction?

This is a more "why do undead faction cheat so much" than "Sell me on living models."

If that is your criteria, play Cryx.

[MathPasta]

The problem is that undead becomes MORE and MORE powerful with every release (Moe and more things its immune to).

No, undeads do not have bad statlines. Slightly lower then avarage CMD...Maybe. Sometimes.

[gunslingerpro]

Um, you don't have to die to become useful?

Yes, that seems a fair benefit.

[Sardonic Artery]

+1 MAt seems to be the general perk to being living.

Agreed. It's common, but not absolute.

Also, the dudes I started this discussion with talked about adding an obscure rule to where rolling snake eyes on a rallying roll would allow you to immediately take your activation as if you hadn't fled. Sure, it'd be rare, and likely not all that useful, but then there'd be a small perk to rolling snake eyes in the right situation, too.

[Decade]

Y'know, I don't think there really is a defined "advantage" to being alive. But, then again, living is the default, basic condition for the models in the game, so assuming that there's some inherent advantage is flawed thinking. Being undead is, as some of the other people in the thread have pointed out, is an advantage, just like fearless, tough, immune x, eyeless sight, stealth, or the like. By the logic being proposed here, not having stealth or tough should have some sort of advantage to balance out other models having it. And there are indeed models that have anti-stealth and anti-tough tech. Undead models still get destroyed if you deal lethal damage to them. Unless they're stealthy, you can still shoot them or hit them with spells. AOEs still deal blast damage to em. Axe to face still takes out a bane knight just as easily as it takes out an exemplar.

So, lets look at what the undead advantage grants:
native fearlessness - fearless isn't an unusual quality. there are plenty of units that have it, or have high command/standards to make morale practically a non-issue.
not living - the only factions that this has a major impact on are Cryx, because lots of our abilities are tied to living enemies, and Minions: Blindwater, who have many of their abilities tied to affecting living enemies. There are some other factions that have minor effects tied to living enemies, such as circle and trollbloods, but those factions that have the biggest impact from facing non-living armies are Cryx & Blindwater.
no souls - an enemy model cannot gain soul tokens from undead models. As with the non-living "issue" above, the faction that has the biggest problem with not getting souls from enemy models is, lo and behold, Cryx. Other factions may have minor soul collecting mechanics, but for the most part, use of souls is pretty much a Cryx thing.

So, in summary, the faction that is hurt the most by models being undead is Cryx. And they're the undead faction. Blindwater, with its abundance of anti-living based abilities comes in second. And hey, they've got a strong undead theme too. Interesting.

[pavel0]

Old man Mohsar has erosion, so I suppose that is a perk for living models if he ever decides to kill something in melee...

And Wurmwood doesn't care where its souls come from. They're all equally nutritious.

It seems generally that one of the few perks of living models is they're useful for fueling your own diabolical plans, e.g. you can bring along some hapless bone grinders for souls or heart tokens.

Who doesn't love BLTs or soul food?

[SpiderBite]

. . . what's the perk of being a living model in this game? . . .

-actual battle engines
-actual Colossals
-overall better stat-lines
-you get to be converted into mechanithralls

[Rochr]

They are few and far between. For Skorne and Menoth, we can only collect souls from friendly living models. So that is something!

Since Wrath, Cygnar can too

[Azuresun]

Being undead is, as some of the other people in the thread have pointed out, is an advantage, just like fearless, tough, immune x, eyeless sight, stealth, or the like. By the logic being proposed here, not having stealth or tough should have some sort of advantage to balance out other models having it.

The thing is, almost no other ability becomes more powerful with each new set of releases as Undead does. For example, with Domination, undead models perform better for no extra charge against: Proteus (Snacking, Heightened Metabolism), Ghetorix (Terror, Snacking), Rok (Snacking), eHexeris (Hellfire, Ashen Veil), Naaresh (Bleed, Life Drinker), the Boneswarm (Bonepicker), Maelok (Cull Soul, Terror), and the Throne of Everblight (Feeding).

I can't think of any other ability you listed that's proof against so much stuff per book. I suppose you could compare Tough, but that's more an ability intentionally designed to perform equally well against nearly everything that doesn't specifically ignore it. Undead seem to often hijack abilities where well, it obviously wouldn't work on warjacks, but the reason it wouldn't work on undead is less clear cut.

[Defenstrator]

Seems like the undead get all the perks.

It has been generally ackowledged that Undead is one of the best abilities in the game. Not only do you get all the benefits of Fearless but a bunch of different spells and abilites no longer work on you, especially against Hordes.

My personal suspicion is that Undead an unforseen design flaw of trying to help warjacks. Those are big metal machines and so it's understanable that Snacking, Ashen Veil, etc, don't work on them. And Undead aren't alive so they should get the same thing, right? Except big units of Banes get more of an advantage out of the immunities than the two or three jacks that typically show up. It's just a bit of a "Whoops, didn't see that coming". IMOHO of course.

[Sardonic Artery]

I seem to recall some concern from the Cryx forums over the potency of the Witch Doctor for Hordes as a whole. Now all of Hordes has access to undead warrior models.

[PG_Crump]

I couldn't play Cassius if my models weren't alive. No souls means I'm operating at 50% hellmouth capacity. Undead can suck it.

[George Spiggott]

What's the benefit to living models? They generate souls and focus for Cryx. Does there need to be another benefit?

[W0lf]

Not getting abused for playing cryx?

[Vex]

You might as well ask what the benefit is of not having stealth, or not having tough, etc.

Undead is an advantage, same as any other in the game. Unlike most other advantages, it has some downsides, such as Dominate Undead, as the OP mentioned.

And undead does not "get better every expansion". Does stealth get better every time a new ranged unit is added to the game? Does disruption get better every time a new 'jack is added to the game?

There are a lot of people in this thread that need to stop being bad.