Some Remarkably Newbie Questions about Rules and Purchases

[Marx]

Phew, long title! Okay, so a buddy and I just decided to take the plunge and try out Warmachine... He's a long time WH-Fantasy player (Chaos and Dark Elves, if anyone is curious), and I'm an old WH40K (Dark Angels) player, so some of the framework for WM was already there. I picked up the Khador-Menoth starter and the Cygnar battle box (Stryker, Lancer, Ironclad, and Charger), and he's happily addicted to the Retribution, although he's only purchased a few models (a heavy Myrmidon and a unit of... Dawn guard, I think?). We played a learner game between Menoth and Khador (in which my Menoth forces lost by assassination), and rapidly accumulated a horde of questions... So here I am!

My apologies in advance for the noob-ness of the questions!

1. Is there ever any point to "over Focusing" to a 'jack? A couple times I assigned one of my heavies (the one with the cannon) 3 focus, not realizing it was impossible to use all three (ROF 1, so even if I boosted RAT and damage, I was still left with one!). A newbie mistake, obviously, but was there something else I could have done with that extra Focus point now that the 'jack had it?

2. Power attacks like Trample REPLACE the normal attack, right? So I can't attack the 'jack in front of me, knock it down, and then trample over the infantry behind it? But I could, in theory, throw a model, then spend Focus for extra attacks (but not move...?). What about the Manticore's double attack? Can Nick use that instead of a normal attack for his charge attack (say no... I shudder to think of a P+S 23 boosted attack...)

3. Can I charge with a 'jack at any target within LOS? And then if I can't reach it, spend a Focus for a ranged attack?

4. Spray attacks say they don't suffer the -4 for shooting into melee... but AOE attacks still do (and scatter if they miss), right?

5. Okay, last question, and it's not really rules related. When you folks are adding troops to your armies, is there certain point thresholds you aim for? Like, I'm thinking it would be nice to get 25 points for my Cygnar and Khador armies and for Nick's Retribution, because then we could play with 10 or 15 point skirmishes and swap models out for variation, but he said that 25 points might not "break down" into balanced 10 or 15 point teams.

I know there are rules I'm forgetting that I forgot, but I'll just start another novel-length post when I remember what they are! Thanks again!

[r3tr3ad]

1) Nope. Resource management is the tricky part. You need to plan out moves before allocating.

2) Power attacks replace initial attacks as do special attacks. Once the initial attacks are out of the way, if you have anything still in melee range you can spend focus to buy additional attacks with the weapons listed on the card, but not special or power attacks. Charges CAN use special attacks listed on the card, but not power attacks. So yes, the Manticore can (and it's just as nasty as you think!)

3) Yes and no. You can charge anything you have LOS to, but if you don't get into melee range, the charge fails and its activation ends immediately.

4) You have this one correct.

5) 25 points is where the game really begins to become balanced. 15 is workable, anything less may not be.

These are the rules as I understand them, but I've only been playing since May, so if I'm wrong on any points, please feel free to correct me.

[hausdorff space]

r3tr3ad is pretty spot on with his answers, but to join in.

1. Is there ever any point to "over Focusing" to a 'jack? A couple times I assigned one of my heavies (the one with the cannon) 3 focus, not realizing it was impossible to use all three (ROF 1, so even if I boosted RAT and damage, I was still left with one!). A newbie mistake, obviously, but was there something else I could have done with that extra Focus point now that the 'jack had it?

In this situation the 3rd focus is lost, though if you're making an AoE attack then you can also boost the damage against those caught in the blast.

Otherwise, generally, additional focus is left on the jack and effectively lost (for no additional value). However there are a small number of jacks that gain buffs for focus left on them (Chimera Ret light jack gains +1 DEF per focus), or that can do additional things with their focus (like Sourge of Heresy PoM Character Heavy can negate an enemy spell).

2. Power attacks like Trample REPLACE the normal attack, right? So I can't attack the 'jack in front of me, knock it down, and then trample over the infantry behind it? But I could, in theory, throw a model, then spend Focus for extra attacks (but not move...?). What about the Manticore's double attack? Can Nick use that instead of a normal attack for his charge attack (say no... I shudder to think of a P+S 23 boosted attack...)

Special Attacks (*attacks), which include power attacks, are used in place of your initial attacks; but they don't replace your combat action, so you can buy additional attacks afterwards (though they must still be of the same type: melee/ranged). This is unlike special actions (*actions), which replace the combat action, so cannot be followed by additional attacks unless their individual rules specify so.

Also, only melee attacks can be made after a charge. So a special attack can only be used on a charge if it's rules specify that it can, or if it is part of a melee weapons special rules. (This is why power attacks cannot be made as a charge attack).

3. Can I charge with a 'jack at any target within LOS? And then if I can't reach it, spend a Focus for a ranged attack?

Generally no.
Certain models have the Assault special rule (Reckoner PoM heavy warjack) which is a charge move followed by a ranged attack against the target, followed by the charge attack.

4. Spray attacks say they don't suffer the -4 for shooting into melee... but AOE attacks still do (and scatter if they miss), right?

Yup

5. Okay, last question, and it's not really rules related. When you folks are adding troops to your armies, is there certain point thresholds you aim for? Like, I'm thinking it would be nice to get 25 points for my Cygnar and Khador armies and for Nick's Retribution, because then we could play with 10 or 15 point skirmishes and swap models out for variation, but he said that 25 points might not "break down" into balanced 10 or 15 point teams.

When starting I'd stick with Battle boxes or jack/beast only 15pt games for a while ... 25pts if you guys are keen. Then start adding things in as you like. You might not always full up the points, but as long as it's reasonably close it shouldn't matter too much.

People often talk about balance of the point levels, but I don't think it really maters, each just offers another level of fun - 15pts is a quick fun and brutal game, 25pts adds the option to deepen a 'theme' within a list, 35pts expands on this allowing you room for secondary options, and 50pts allows you to round out the army with a refocus on a balanced list or increase of the 'theme'-skew.

There's a level of subtle synergy that goes on with list building, and generally (except when starting) you won't often find here's a 15/25/35pt army with another 10pts chucked on; you'll find several core unit/jack choices with support filling in the gaps to give it that lovely back-breaking power. Personally I look for one key piece (heavy warjack, full unit) per full 10pts, the rest being available for "support" options.

[Marx]

Thanks for the quick replies, folks! Nick is going to be overjoyed about his Manticore being exactly as deadly as he wanted (while I am going to invest in some bullet-soaks to keep him from charging my expensive 'jacks, thankyouverymuch!).

We're planning another Khador-Menoth match for Monday, when hopefully I can get a little revenge for him lopping off my caster's head last time (both his Juggernaut and Destroyer had spell-boosted charges at my caster... Oops...).

[Decade]

Thanks for the quick replies, folks! Nick is going to be overjoyed about his Manticore being exactly as deadly as he wanted (while I am going to invest in some bullet-soaks to keep him from charging my expensive 'jacks, thankyouverymuch!).

Exemplar bastions are a pretty good choice when it comes to soaking up damage, as are exemplar errants.

[Marx]

Despite having 21 points of Menoth, they're not a faction I intend to collect. I normally pick factions based on fluff and aesthetics, and neither of those for Menoth appeal to me. Cygnar and Khador, on the other hand, I like... Khador looks more badass but they're more selfish (I won't say "bad", just misguided), and Cygnar have a great story but aren't quite as visually appealing for me. Still beautiful, though.

I just picked up a squad of Widowmakers, another of Trenchers, and a squad of Arcane gun mages... Can't wait to paint them and field them against the Retribution!

[JiMEE]

Cool topic and discussion.

[Marx]

Oh, hey, another stupid question... If my models are posed in such a way that makes base-to-base contact impossible (eg: my Man 'o Wars pikes are extending past their base), do I have to rotate them such that they CAN make base contact (have every second guy facing sideways), or can we just claim "close enough!" and leave it at that?

Sportsmanship says to let 'em not be in base-to-base, but there may be an official ruling...?

[Lanz]

there's no ruling on how to handle models that can't quite be placed base to base. Generally the position of the models is more important than their facing so long as you remember what their facing is, so yes, I find it's most common to rotate models around and just say that its base arc is flipped or something. Many heavy warbeasts in particular run into this problem a lot.

[RMH420]

So wait, how can you charge and then two handed throw? Do you charge, make your charge attack, then forgo the rest of your initial attacks for the Throw?

[Lanz]

So wait, how can you charge and then two handed throw? Do you charge, make your charge attack, then forgo the rest of your initial attacks for the Throw?

You can't charge and throw. Throw's a power attack, you do one or the other, not both. Unless you have a rule like grab & smash.

[RMH420]

Well then I know a certain Gatorman Wrastler I need to have a talk with at my LGS.