New player. 4th game

[Dennis]

Hi guys,

A newbie here, and so far I have been learning slowly with a fellow newbie, with some advice by some more experienced players as we iron out the rules. Still learning the mechanics, and not aiming for tournaments or anything just for some fun.

Anyway, just played my 4th game against an existing player for once (15 points). He saw my list on the table and created a cryx list on the fly...

My list (what I had on the day, in typing this I just realised I forgot to add 2 more points for a widowmaker marksman... doh!)... yeah 13 points on my side : P.

pButcher
2 x Berserker
Juggernaut

Opponent:
pDeneghra
Deathjack
Bane Thralls (6 i think)
Pistol Wraith

Goes something like this (n.b. not sure if it is exactly right, only pieced some of it later in the day after checking prime):
* He runs up all.
* I run up all and iron flesh butcher
* He feats, crippling grasp a berserker, parasite my juggernaut which gets shot up by wraith, and deathjack destroys my other berserker
* I am debuffed, so all I could do was make sure my jacks covered butcher from a charge by deathjack, maintain iron flesh and sat on 3 focus. I think I may have shot one thrall with butcher.
* Upkeep spells, Wraith destroys juggernaut. Deathjack destroys other berserker. Deneghra charges butcher, and casts her knockdown spell which misses and scatters but since we are within 1" knocks butcher down anyway (Deneghra also knocked down). Bane thralls charge and kill butcher.

3 turns less than a half hour. Haha my last game (25 points) took almost 4 hours...

Anyway, it all seems a bit harsh and I realise infantry and ranged attacks are probably my answer here (as well as using my 2 points...).

Just a couple of questions.

Is it customary for this sort of curb stomping the newbie?
Was there much I could do in game differently? (i.e. not involving changing my list) Smartest thing I felt I did all game was avoiding losing butcher turn 2...
I've not played battlebox vs battlebox against cryx, but Deneghra sounds impossibly strong... if she crippling grasps say the destroyer, I can't imagine the jack doing much for the rest of the game... Am I missing something?

Thanks,

Dennis

[The Buoyancy of Water]

For a start, don't play against folk who are going to roll out pDeneghra and Deathjack "on the fly" against you when you've only played three previous games!

Overall though, I think you could do with some infantry in there (as well as using all your point ). I'm not much of a Butcher expert at the moment though, so that's about the limit of my useful advice...

Cheers,
Dave

[HellVenom]

Curb stomping is normal for new players esp. if the more experienced player doesn't handicap themselves. I personally use Zerkova to teach people. My first game I got my pSorcha stomped without even being able to attack by a shooting Sloan force.

To solve your problem you need to learn to mitigate your damage, infantry help the most because they each will eat an attack. For your current build just set up a berserker in front to take the early hit and set up the charge for the other two. Also you don't always need to run towards your opponent make use of your time and space to pull his army apart or group them up for tramples.

Yes pDeny is good and her battlebox is pretty much the best of the bunch, but she is not signifantly better than any other caster out there. As you learn to play you will learn to deal with new casters and understanding their rules. It can take months to learn any single caster well.

[Dennis]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

The Buoyancy of Water : Yeah, I suspected infantry would be the key. Higher DEF and the fact you can only kill one with each hit would have mitigated it...

HellVenom: Unfortunately, the sacrificial berserker didn't work in the game (although it worked out well in my previous game) because:
I cannot charge due to Deneghra's feat. Could only walk 2 inches with my remaining models.
Also, pistol wraith forced me to either move/action with my juggernaut.

I am starting to suspect the biggest issue with Butcher is lack of manoeuvrability spells/abilities... at least compared to pSorscha and pVlad I tried previously...

[Leprousy]

Alright. Outside of everything else said you have one other problem. You've only played 4 games and have used three different casters. Pick one, and play them 15-20 times before trying the next. The three you have are all great to start with, so choose whichever you feel most comfortable with

[Dennis]

Leprousy: I had the models lying around and was trying to figure out which caster felt right/fun. No point sticking to one I didn't enjoy playing in my mind...

Fluffy hats won me over... But she's still on the painting table.



I understand the learning curve and all that, but I was hoping someone could share some experience with me in regards to whether this game I had was common, whether I had missed some tactical option or just played foolishly, and questioning the seemingly tough matchup Denegrha represents for our low SPD, MAT, RAT jacks (i.e. battle box games).

[rivenwyrm]

I am starting to suspect the biggest issue with Butcher is lack of manoeuvrability spells/abilities... at least compared to pSorscha and pVlad I tried previously...

You're right on the money. That is in fact his biggest weakness. Sadly, speed and maneuverability are often just as or more important than anything else you brought to the table. In Khador our infantry are inherently more maneuverable than our warjacks in almost all situations, so pick yourself up some. If you examine our casters, a lot of them have speed buffs of some sort. The ones who do not often have a suit of abilities designed to help mitigate getting hit first. pButcher has one spell to help mitigate it, and his feat/Fury kinda sorta helps, but it's never really been enough for me personally.

Deneghra is considered a top tier caster, even outside the battleboxes (where she is commonly considered the hardest to fight). Not only that but your opponent played one of the most powerful warjacks in the game against you, combined with a model (the Pistol Wraith) whose best matchup is Khador. Next time you play this guy, ask him not to be a total *******.

[nerdkingdan]

Honestly the guy does sound like a jerk. He knew your list and put something together to stomp all over it. I had a tournament win(very small event), but in planning I knew not to get bucher in a match vrs Denny with out tools to deal with her specifically. In a tournament you look at their lists they see yours and choose. I had a list with cryx in mind and a bucher list.

I think the butcher could do an anti cryx list, or one that could handle it. But not with what you had.

[Col_Festus]

Leprousy: I had the models lying around and was trying to figure out which caster felt right/fun. No point sticking to one I didn't enjoy playing in my mind...

Fluffy hats won me over... But she's still on the painting table.



I understand the learning curve and all that, but I was hoping someone could share some experience with me in regards to whether this game I had was common, whether I had missed some tactical option or just played foolishly, and questioning the seemingly tough matchup Denegrha represents for our low SPD, MAT, RAT jacks (i.e. battle box games).

You fought arguably the best caster in the game, who was using arguably the best warjack in the game, with arguably the best infantry in the game. Yes that is pretty common when you are running arguably the worst heavy warjack in the game with a caster who more than anything hates board control debuffs. Unfortunately you got baby seal clubbed. I would avoid playing that person again until you figure out the intricacies of the faction. A lot of people think Khador are easy to play. I think they actually take the most skill to play due to their inability to ignore swaths of core rules.

For the record and a more direct answer to your question I had similar experiences when I was learning. I also started with pButcher. It took me a good long while before I realized his strengths and weaknesses. Getting a tarpit to put Iron Flesh on will help a lot. Butcher doesn't have any speed buffs so your force will almost always take it on the chin. Tough + Iron flesh helps with this a lot. Hence why I like to run iron fleshed winter guard with him. He also likes shooting ironically. His feat + bombards can turn Denegra into a smear pretty easily. If you have any other questions feel free to PM me and I can help you with list construction or whatever. Good luck!

[scout's honor]

Next time, ask for a rematch where you both use the other's list. That tends to cut down a bit on the roflstomp-a-newbie dickery. At the very least you'll likely get some suggestions about your list, instead of getting slammed with the hardest counter your opponent can dig up.

[W0lf]

Thats a bad bad match up.

Between banes, deathjack and denny your looking at some of the best stuff in the game.

Anyway a game is a good game if you learn something from it.

First lesson. Butcher dosnt like jacks.
Second lesson. Cryx are nasty.
Third lesson. Dont let your opponent jump a warkack without reprocusions.

[ShockwaveIIC]

Deneghra is considered a top tier caster, even outside the battleboxes (where she is commonly considered the hardest to fight). Not only that but your opponent played one of the most powerful warjacks in the game against you, combined with a model (the Pistol Wraith) whose best matchup is Khador. Next time you play this guy, ask him not to be a total *******.

As Rivenwyrm has put.

That "on the fly" list is built pretty much to kill Khador, and while you will frequently see those things in the same list, it's a pretty crappy thing todo to a new player. Your high armour is totally countered by the Parasite, Bane Thrall's, Feat combo. Pistol Wraiths love low DEF models.

Basically, your opponent was "James May's favourite word"

[John of Arc]

Seriously, that guy was a ****. His army is a direct counter to yours, and its a very powerful army designed to take advantage of what the warcaster offers. For you to have an equivalent list, you would have had to been running either Winterguard or Kayazy Assassins with Beast 09. For the record, most 'official' 15 point games are Mangled Metal games which are exclusively your warcaster and warjacks- no Bane Thralls, no Pistol Wraith. Against your list especially, the Wraith is a three point solo that gets to shut down a third of your list for the whole game.

Seriously. That guy was a ****.

[tjhairball]

Next time, ask for a rematch where you both use the other's list. That tends to cut down a bit on the roflstomp-a-newbie dickery. At the very least you'll likely get some suggestions about your list, instead of getting slammed with the hardest counter your opponent can dig up.

This. If it's a fair match-up, and you're a new player, they should be willing to play both sides of it.

[Shwan]

The best lesson I've learned against Cryx is to NEVER overextend yourself if you can't protect your advance. If you guys are playing straight assassination with both sides getting equal 10"/16" deployments and he spends his first turn running, take your sweet time and just take that 4" advance those jacks have. It may not see like much but that extra 4" you didn't take from running means he'll either have to completely slow down to adjust tempo, or to keep initiative keep running at you, which usually equates to an alpha strike for you. Especially if it's a 15 point game it'll only take 5-10 minutes for your turn if you're running 5 models.

that and Kill arc nodes as quick as possible.

[Dennis]

Wow, thanks for the support and the feedback guys.

It seems I have walked into the paper to my rock... And a potentially tournament competitive paper as well...
Mental note:

*Not much I could have done with the tools I had on the board. Perhaps more careful thought about positioning to receive the initial charge.

*Definitely need infantry and guns (or blast) for a more balanced list. I've got some pikemen, I'll work on including them, even in small games.

*Full throttle is good, but not that good because it only helps with our jacks low MAT (and focus efficiency). Still have MOV and DEF weaknesses to deal with... they need support.

*Having my marksmen to harass the pistol wraith would have helped a little. Since the wraith seems to be built to mess with our low DEF jacks.

In some hindsight, without the knockdown AoE deviation trick on butcher, apart from maybe the deathjack I think he would have struggled to hit an iron fleshed Butcher with the rest of his guys... That said, I learnt a useful trick with that AOE deviation, it should work with pSorscha's Tempest as well .

Yes, it was definitely the not a fun game... and I think I had some suspicion when some of the other experienced players which were usually more jovial and supportive were very silent during that game. Must have anticipated the massacre the second the models hit the table. I think at this stage of my learning I'll avoid future games with this particular person at least for now...

Funnily enough, right after the game, I mentioned, I thought the best way I could fix my list going forward was to have a large unit of cheap well spread screening infantry (preferably with guns) instead of a jack, which would entangle his infantry and hold up his jack... He said it wouldn't have mattered because crippling grasp affects units and Deneghra has a spray attack. Thanks to all the feedback, I daresay I was closer to the mark than he implied.

Ah wells, on a bright note earlier in the day (playing fellow newbie), I learnt the beauty of 'full throttle' trample with my juggernaut on infantry. Could not believe the impact on tightly packed infantry . . Shortly thereafter I learnt... do not give a free strike to a berserk enemy, they can get alot more than the one strike... win some, lose some, but fun to see unfold.

Thanks again.

[John of Arc]

That just makes him sound like more of a jerk. He sounds like one of those people where, if you won, they'd come up with a ton of excuses as to why they lost. Go with winterguard and Kovnik Joe. They're a faction staple, and Crippling Grasp does very little to stop ranged attacks. Not only that, but their sprays ignore stealth. If you ever get the chance to shoot/spray her, pop your feat instead of saving it. A warjack or the Butcher wouldn't need his feat anyway.

[Gazzor1]

Winterguard with Joe is a beautiful thing. Had a game with Butcher and full 15 WG + Joe vs. PGoreshade and they blasted 20 Bane Thralls off the table for the loss of 3 WG. Butcher killed his 2 Reaper Jacks over two turns and opponent conceded when he was down to Goreshade, BLT (1 box left) and 2 Bane Thralls.

To be fair though, Denny is harder than Goreshade.

Also, always consider Epic Eiryss. If WG get nasty debuff on them, she can shoot the officer for 1 damage to remove the debuff, or even just kill a grunt to do the same thing.

The Khador basic jacks do seem to suck IMO. In my 35 points list I run a Berserker (Uses all 6 of the Butcher's jack points). Rest of the list is WG, Eliminators, A&H, Gorman and Demo Corps. i.e. good stuff.

This might be a good 15 points list?

Butcher
Berserker
10 Nyss Hunters
Valachev (Keep him very safe or Nyss don't get Butcher feat benefit)
EEiryss (Remember to keep her away from your own jacks)

(I don't run Nyss in my 35 points list as Butcher is a terrible commander and I much prefer LD9 with reroll+ option to auto rally/ be fearless to LD9 without, plus no risk of losing feat benefit from a quite squishy unit attachment. But at such low points, Nyss are the most versatile unit in the game).

Game doesn't work too well at low points levels. At least you weren't playing against ECaine. He starts within 19" of Butcher and Butcher's dead, end of story...

Gaz

[rivenwyrm]

Shortly thereafter I learnt... do not give a free strike to a berserk enemy

You've definitely drawn the right lessons from your match. Soon enough you'll be delivering axe to face with the best of us. One note though. A model with the Berserk ability doesn't get to make berserk attacks because of a free strike unless the free strike is occurring during the model with Berserk's activation. This is because Berserk only generates new attacks during the model's combat action.

[scout's honor]

He said it wouldn't have mattered because crippling grasp affects units and Deneghra has a spray attack.

A solid ranged game is *the* answer to Denny1. If you can remove the arc node from the equation, she becomes much more manageable. And there's a big difference in trying to hit a DEF 10 jack with Crippling Grasp or doing the same with DEF 17 infantry. At the very least she'll want to boost the roll, so another focus point spent right there, and even then rolling 10 on 3d6 is not a guaranteed hit. And then, as John of Arc said, the effect of Crippling Grasp on a ranged model is a lot less crippling (har har) than on a melee model.

[tjhairball]

I've got some pikemen, I'll work on including them, even in small games.

...

Funnily enough, right after the game, I mentioned, I thought the best way I could fix my list going forward was to have a large unit of cheap well spread screening infantry (preferably with guns) instead of a jack, which would entangle his infantry and hold up his jack... He said it wouldn't have mattered because crippling grasp affects units and Deneghra has a spray attack. Thanks to all the feedback, I daresay I was closer to the mark than he implied.

Yeah, sounds like you shouldn't listen to the dude.

Spray attacks are nice for clearing out infantry, but he has to get up in their face to do it, and if the infantry are dispersed, then it's hard to get all of them in one spray. If he's getting up in the face of the infantry, spending his debuff on them, and clearing them out with sprays, you have a clear shot at charging in the next turn. That's the exact point of a tarpit unit - he needs to stop and deal with them, and while his warcaster and expensive super-jack are concentrating on wiping out the infantry, you've gotten into position to smash his face in.

[ShockwaveIIC]

I did have a post, but my phone ate it. So here goes again.

Having my marksmen to harass the pistol wraith would have helped a little.

Due to Incorporeal, until the Wraith targets something, the Marksmen can't touch them.

Shortly thereafter I learnt... do not give a free strike to a berserk enemy

Berserk only gives extra attacks during the models combat action, during which a free strike is somewhat unlikely to happen.

As a side note. pButcher can deal with pDeneghra, IF you go with a ranged list (Which granted at first glance may seem a bit off)

[Septimus]

I'd also point out that, at least where I'm from, it's somewhat unkosher to see what your opponent is fielding and then make a list to fight them, fully knowing what they're bringing to the fight. The double-blind standard is usually best.

[Dennis]

Thanks guys. Particularly about the berserk clarification... it seems we stuffed up that rule. Incorporeal is also something I have to think of, but sounds hard since magic weapons seem to be few and far between.

One of the flavours of winter guard was always on my to do list, so I'll definitely look in that direction. With few jacks packing more than 1 shot a turn, infantry looks like the best way to add ranged attacks to the balance. My WIP widowmakers probably don't count since they are just a mini specialist infantry unit.

Seems there is still plenty to learn, there are so many different units and casters/warlocks in this game... Go to nail down the rules and mechanics it seems.

Thanks again.

[Mustakrakish]

I wont rehash what everyone else said; Just hit some of the fine points.

Denegrah1 is a top tier caster, butcher is not. That already started poorly. Full Throttle is a trap, it isnt as good as you want it to be. He has Iron Flesh, so he LOVES our badass infantry. Ifp / Wither guard with UA giving bob and weave / Kayazy assassins. All of these benefit from his feat as well (people have also had a lot of fun with the winterguard rifle corps + joe and butcher feat turn. boosted to hit and 3d6 damage can put some hurt on things.)

I really like the Spriggan jack. It has targeting flares that dont have to hit to take away stealth (you just place them), which will open up anything that has stealth to a lot of shooting (like the aforementioned Rifle Corps feat turn. 10x(3d6-4) would kill Denegrah most of the time)

His feat is great with lots of things that can use it, so you'll be best served getting some infantry and starting to use it.

You should try to find multiple players to practice against, but try to limit your bouncing between casters. Each caster is very different and take more than a few games to unlock their particular flavor. Also, while butcher may get his face punched by Cryx, he loves eating up Cygnar. So what your opponent plays also has an effect on how your caster plays. That said, if you want a similar style: Play the Old Witch. Especially against that guy.

Finally, that experienced player was a jerk. He brought a GOOD tournament list to play a casual learning game. Eff that guy.

[scout's honor]

Full Throttle is a trap, it isnt as good as you want it to be.

More accurately put: you can't build a list around Full Throttle and expect that to work all or even most of the time. It's a great spell if an opportunity presents itself, but you can't plan for that to happen and you usually can't deliberately create an opportunity either. I'd say it comes up in 1 game in 5 or so with Butcher1 for me.

[Gazzor1]

Also, while butcher may get his face punched by Cryx, he loves eating up Cygnar.

Sorry to hijack thread, but I always find that my Butcher list eats Cryx for breakfast, but I have a very hard time vs. Cygnar. What do you take in your list?

Anyway, WG are great, but I'd consider Nyss for small games. Nyss can hit hard every turn thanks to POW9 weaponmaster. Advantage of Valachev is that he can get rid of Crippling Grasp on the unit with a special action by himself. And the beauty is that they work for about 6 other factions, so can form the start of other armies in the years to come.

Gaz

[Dennis]

Thanks again guys. I guess it was pretty obvious, that my simple butcher plan was to cast full throttle continuously until a jack or 2 died. If this is the case, it makes Berserkers pretty hard to use effectively, outside of Vlad and signs and portents.

I presume this implies iron flesh is Butcher's main spell? Everything else typically goes to making him a monster?

Actually, a couple of simple questions. Can winterguard bob and weave and shoot in the same turn? I know they can't do it and run, but ranged attack doesn't seem as clear in my head. Similarly can some troops spray while others combine ranged attack?

They seem like a good option, cheap troops with ranged attacks and some flexibility (spray and combined melee).

Thanks,

Dennis

[CHaoTiCTeX]

1st, that guy was a ****, flat out. What he did was bad, and he should feel bad. edit: just talked to my cryx buddy, even he's appalled

2nd, I would not personally use berserkers, except, with pVlad mangled metal (you can 4 at 15 points in tier) I would recommend taking a single jack with butcher, something like Beast09 or Black Ivan, or a Spriggan

3rd, our infantry is top notch. Kayazy assassins can poke most anything to death, WGI will destroy anything in their way and shrug off losing a guy or 3 (i mean, you have 15 of them) The pikemen hit like trucks and are hard to kill to boot. and the Nyss (especially with valachev) are very mobile and can mix it up in melee or stay back and shoot.

4th, magical weapons, since it hasnt come up yet, Lady Aiyana and Mast Holt can grant magical weapons to a unit, or you can use doomreavers, who have magical swords. you can also use greylord ternion who have a 8" magical spray attack.

also, personal hobbies of mine, Having butcher solo kill heavies, usually gets him killed, but its good fun. My personal favorite so far was 2 shotting an avatar from full.


as far as tactics go,

banes cant usually hit above def 14 reliably (this is where our infantry comes in) either the WGI under the effects of Bob and Weave, or the kayazy with their UA (duelist) are def 14 (iirc, ive been playing Retribution for a few months ;p) so if you iron flesh them, IF and crippling grasp basically cancel each other out.

as soon as the Pistol Wraith attacks, you need to try and retailiate against it, since once it attacks, it loses incorporeal for a round, so you can hit it with normal attacks

assuming everything else was handled, butcher can and will kill deathjack if he can get there. just make sure you kill it dead. Warjack can help with that

Denny cannot deal with butcher on her own, period, so if you are able to take apart her army, she falls flat. I usually find though, that with butcher, that if I dont get the alpha off against her, I struggle because of her feat. I usually try and take a fast threat, such as kayazy eliminators, or assassins, or the Man-o-War Drakhun and get early threat on her to force a defensive feat, ideally you want to make her feat on your terms, not hers.

hope this helps ya mate

[CHaoTiCTeX]

Thanks again guys. I guess it was pretty obvious, that my simple butcher plan was to cast full throttle continuously until a jack or 2 died. If this is the case, it makes Berserkers pretty hard to use effectively, outside of Vlad and signs and portents.

I presume this implies iron flesh is Butcher's main spell? Everything else typically goes to making him a monster?

Actually, a couple of simple questions. Can winterguard bob and weave and shoot in the same turn? I know they can't do it and run, but ranged attack doesn't seem as clear in my head. Similarly can some troops spray while others combine ranged attack?

They seem like a good option, cheap troops with ranged attacks and some flexibility (spray and combined melee).

Thanks,

Dennis

They can Bob and Weave and shoot, seemed sketchy to me at first, but my local EO verified it for me.

some can spray while others CRA, CMA, etc

make sure you get Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich as well, he can give them 1 of 3 speeches: fear and tough for a round, boosted hit rolls, +3 str

[scout's honor]

I presume this implies iron flesh is Butcher's main spell? Everything else typically goes to making him a monster?

On a unit or model that doesn't paricularly care about DEF, Fury's pretty darn good as well - and you can hotswap it. Obliteration is too expensive to cast often, but it's worth the cost for sure if you see a good opportunity: on the feat turn, on average rolls and boosting damage that's 29-ARM from 15" away (18 if you can get a well placed charge in - just run an expendable grunt into position so you can charge it in the back, and you can even use push shenanigans for a bit more distance, although that'll be difficult to do effectively) - chip off a few more points with Widowmakers or so and that's game against a lot of casters. IF and Fury are Butcher1's bread and butter - on his army at first, on himself late-game - but I do use the other two every now and then. I would have liked to see a Razor Wind or something similar in there (a RAT 5 RNG 8 non-magical blunderbuss is extremely situational), but apparently that wasn't to be.

Actually, a couple of simple questions. Can winterguard bob and weave and shoot in the same turn? I know they can't do it and run, but ranged attack doesn't seem as clear in my head. Similarly can some troops spray while others combine ranged attack?

Yes and yes: only Bob & Weave requires an order, so everything can be used and combined at will. The reason you can't B&W and run at the same time is that those require a different order each.