Is Deflection a bad joke?

[Benejeseret]

I've been playing with S&D for a bit now and have been constantly been underwhelmed and perplexed by Deflection (especially compared to similar spells). Specifically looking at S&D Deflection and Slaughterhousers.

When I break it down I see this:

- POW of their weapons are significantly higher than RAT for the average units/models. The shift between DEF and ARM is not anywhere near the same large span for average models (specifically, Slaughterhousers). This means that, especially given the bell curve effect, increasing DEF or lowing RAT is much more effective than increasing ARM or lowing POW (edit by vintersbastard for mathfans).

- There are more options for increasing RAT or chance to hit than increasing POW of ranged weapons (Dan from Chicago).

- For multi-damage and already high ARM infantry Deflection might eventually catch up or overtake DEF boosts....but the farrow do not currently have multi-damage heavy infantry, slaughterhousers ARM is not high, and S&D are specifically setup to work with slaughterhousers given Tier benefits.

Against a common POW ranged weapon of 10-12, they are damaging Slaughterhousers on 4-6 normally (92.62% to 72.18% odds) and with Deflection are damaging on 6-8 (41.64 to 72.18%) of the time assuming normal 2d6 and no other boosts/bonuses. So, Deflection increases survival a flat 20-30% against the small shots. More powerful shots are common, and Deflection is less effective (net survival chance) against higher POW.
Certainly better than nothing.

Common Blast damage is around 8, and so normally disabling on a 8+ (41.64%) and 10+ with Deflection (16.65%).


Lets compare this to two similar spells (Control Area Benefits increasing survival etc)

1. Fog of War. Concealment to everything will give a similar (or better given low RATs) survival chance....except it also benefits all non-warrior models. Also, it triggers special abilities such as Prowl/Camo etc. Farrow do not have prowl/camo, but Thornfall does and our beasts could still benefit from the increase.

2. Solid Ground. Immune to blast damage is FAR more effective than Deflection regarding Blasts. Although it does not help against small arms direct hits directly, Tough Slaughterhousers would love 33% chance to shrug off anything. As is, even making a Tough check against a ranged attack basically nullifies that SH for a turn, if not 2. Again, Solid Ground also benefits the non-warrior abilities and would help screen S&D...


If Deflection affected all models (beasts) I could see it being worth it, but compared to other options I just really don't see what this spell does for the farrow or why S&D have it compared to Solid Ground especially.

The one thing in Deflection's favour is that situationally concealment/cover can be added on for DEF boosts as well, where something like Fog of War cannot get add-ons for DEF/ARM based on terrain (cover yes, but replaces).

[PG_Devilsquid]

It's a two point spell that boosts most armor to 16/17, so helps mostly against blast. It also bring S&D up to 18 arm against Shooting Magic. and gives units that don't have dig in abit more protection.

Fog of war and Solid Ground are also upkeep spells, which would conflict with vision/watcher. And Fog with a 14" area of effect would quickly help your opponent as well. Solid Ground is a great spell, and giving your entire army immunity to knock down and blast damage (again, in a 14" control area) would be kinda ridiculous for one fury a turn.

I agree, Deflection is not a "holy cow" spell, but it's help keep more piggies alive over time. Especially our solos, where 2pts can equal death.

[Benejeseret]

Ah, I had forgotten about Upkeeps.

In someways that makes it better (does not conflict with Watcher) and in many ways it makes it seem that much worse as it costs 2/turn rather than just 2+1/turn for what still seems like less return.

help keep more piggies alive over time

Some part of me knows this is true, but having played a few dozen play-tests with it thus far it just....hasn't. Whether that was just numerous bad dice I cannot say for sure.

Now, if we get other ARM buffs from other sources and higher ARM and/or multi-box warrior models I'll probably feel differently. Styker/Nemo makes good use of Deflection because their infantry are naturally higher ARM and there are journeymen warcasters throwing around even more ARM buffs. Getting to ARM20 most definitely makes a difference.

If the opponent has any ranged capability - how do you get Slaughterhousers to the melee?

[Dan from Chicago]

There are a lot of pow 10s in the game and its easier to buff RAT than POW.

[Dan from Chicago]

There are a lot of pow 10s in the game and its easier to buff RAT than POW.

[vintersbastard]

- POW is in the range of double the RAT for average units/models. This means that, especially given the bell curve effect, increasing DEF or lowing RAT is much more effective than increasing ARM or lowing POW as ARM is not double DEF..

You should leave doubling out of it. Doubling implies a scaling effect, but you're actually dealing with a shift in the distribution.

[PG_Devilsquid]

Deflection is not a "anti-shooting" spell, but it's a "try and keep more alive as they move up the board" spell. It's biggest benefit is that you don't have to slow down your army to Dig In with your brigands because Deflection keeps you moving forward.

Normally when I get up close, I don't bother casting it anymore as there's usually less shooting. But it still adds benefits against magic, which is a big help against a lot of armies.

[Rotfell]

I see deflection as a spell, that holds potencial in a future farrow army. For now it's underwhelming, but one day even farrow might get high-ARM infantry. Or cavalry, which tend to have some ARM and life points.

[Dan from Chicago]

It's also a defacto arm buff for the lock ... Never bad

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

I used to run a AoE heavy list with eIrusk that would eat enemy infantry alive via FireForEffect. The armies that would throw up deflection against my list suddenly had a lot more of their models remaining.

[Benejeseret]

I used to run a AoE heavy list with eIrusk that would eat enemy infantry alive via FireForEffect. The armies that would throw up deflection against my list suddenly had a lot more of their models remaining.

Absolutely, if someone took away my Deflection (in return for nothing) I would surely throw a tantrum. My point is more that although Deflection definitively helps against an eIrusk FoE AoE barrage or any such shooting....Solid Ground is astronomically better for a similar resource investment. Everything Deflection offers in terms of actual on table effects there is another spell that does so much more, for more models (not just warriors), with additional effects. Immunity to blasts is a whole lot more than small increase in resistance, and the spell offers so much more for our Tough models and works on Battlegroup etc. Or Storm Wall. Storm wall effectively cancels direct shots (or force them to advance more than they would like to against a short-ranged farrow force) and can really impede AoE.

If Deflection was all FF models (battlegroup) or if it had a small additional effect (Dodge - range/magic only?) I would not be posting.

I guess I just needed to gripe that I need to cast a spell just to give my relatively expensive light infantry the chance to die on average rolls when shot rather than below average, when so many other casters have ways to effectively deliver such units (Occultation/Stealth, Extra Movement, LOS blocking templates, walls, AoE immunity, range reductions, Immunity to x/y/z).

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

My point is more that although Deflection definitively helps against an eIrusk FoE AoE barrage or any such shooting....Solid Ground is astronomically better for a similar resource investment

Sure. Although I don't think anyone would argue that Deflection is better than Solid Ground. The only minor quibble I have with Solid Ground is that its an upkeep. Thus 'popable' by a certain elfish rogue.

If the opponent has any ranged capability - how do you get Slaughterhousers to the melee?

Great question!!

Benejeseret, something I think you should consider is that Sturm&Drang already come with a bunch of Primo spells. Telekinesis/Watcher/KillingGround/Goad is already a lot of awesome packed into a porky package. I'd consider deflection just icing on the cake.

I also think that warcasters/locks in the future will fit more into one of two shoes. Either one sweet signature spell/feat or a grab bag of very handy abilities (although I think Ossrum won the proverbial lottery with his amazing spell list).

[Dan from Chicago]

My point is more that although Deflection definitively helps against an eIrusk FoE AoE barrage or any such shooting....Solid Ground is astronomically better for a similar resource investment.

...

If Deflection was all FF models (battlegroup) or if it had a small additional effect (Dodge - range/magic only?) I would not be posting.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Game Balance

Yes some spells are unequivocally better than other spells. Locomotion costs the same as Energizer ... Locomotion is one Jack, Energizer is entire battlegroup ... but if pNemo had Energizer my God would he be busted! Some abilities are unequivocally better than other abilities ... Acrobatics is better than parry.

I don't think the Farrow will ever get a lock with Solid Ground. Why? All our combat units* have access to tough. Tough + No Knockdown is an incredible combo. 1/3 of the time your attack will just do nothing ... yep ... busted

Yes, Pirates have access to that combo: 1. It depends on support solos, 2. Those support solos have to be close to the action, 3. One of those support solos is a medium base, which is difficult to protect

Very different from a control area spell on a warlock.

*Bone Grinders are a support piece IMO

[dboeren]

I just don't get what you're complaining about at all. Deflection is a useful spell. It's not the best spell in the whole universe, and isn't meant to be. Nor does it make any sense to single out just one spell or ability on a caster, especially when it's not even one of their main ones - you've got to look at the whole package.

Personally I like the extra protection Deflection gives. It's a useful thing to have on turn 1-2 when we're being shot. Later, it's more likely to no longer be used. Not being upkeep, it's harder to remove and doesn't conflict with other upkeeps I want running. So basically it does the job it's supposed to do - help keep a few more troopers & solos alive and provide your caster a little protection. That's all. I'd rather use that tool in the situations where it benefits me than get stuck on wishing it also mowed my lawn or watered my plants.

[Benejeseret]

My complaint is specifically aimed at Split Decision.

Nothing from my immature whines should ever be considered toward Nemo or Stryker with Deflection. Giving them anything more to Deflection would be over-the-top.

Also, I love S&D, from concept to abilities. What I am having issues with is using Split Decision against any ranged force (after well onto two dozen games with Split Decision 25-35pts). They are a fantastic beast support caster who can be a bit of a beast themselves...but then have a non-beast, warrior only ability tossed in.

When the designed Split Decision, S&D, and the Slaughterhousers together (same book, same Tier, thus...together) I see the thought process as going something like this (obviously simplified; the work PP puts into their products is beyond praise-worthy):

"OK, S&D and SHs are coming out together so we need to make it seems like they work together more."
"Hmmm, lets put them together in a Tier. Done!"
"We need a bonus that highlights SHs and helps them get to melee.....advance deploy...huzzah"
Wait, now they are out alone and unprotected.....need something without upkeeps.....ah, Deflection!

I can see the logic as it all goes together. Deflection probably is the best option given how things came together....but somehow it just doesn't come together all that well.

At the end of the day, the 'point' of Deflection is to get SHs to the melee. My gripe is...does it? Does it really make a noticeable difference in delivering SHs and can it do what it is supposed to do in the Tier when it all comes together.

My personal anecdotal evidence says no.

And here is my math as a further example. Lets take a examples of a cheap Range warrior with RAT5 and a POW10 weapon...lets say then can even CRA and consider a 2-man shot for RAT7 and POW12. Then lets also consider a solo with RAT8 and POW14

With no buffs and straight up, they are killing a Slaughterhouser (considering Tough) 28.1% of the shots alone, and 50.9% of the time in pairs. The ranged solo is killing 61.1% of the shots.
Deflection changes these numbers to 16.2% and 40.8% in pairs, and the solo kills 56.1% of shots.

Random Blasts onto a SH at 1/2 POW 7 kills 18.5% without and 5.5% with Deflection.

So, casting Deflection is saving 1 in 20 to 1 in 10 of those Slaughterhousers who would normally have been killed without.

That's something. It really is. If all 12 are shot only once, it will save one or two. As mentioned, you are not likely casing it past the first few turns.
So, the 'point' of Slaughterhousers in Tier appears to be to save between 2-4 SHs in a game, assuming each is only shot once per turn. That should be great.

But, in game you usually don't keep them in a straight line advancing, and the enemy can focus just on the first few in range, leaving those behind for the next turn that are too far away....

So, in Tier this just means that some other element should be used to counter ranged units - that's how tactics work. Throw you're papers at their rocks and keep your scissors away from their rocks.

But, what does Tier offer to counter. At 25pts you have Road Hogs and at 35+ you can get in other options.
-Brigands come to mind...except with the advance move of SHs it means abandoning the Tier benefit to get the Brigands out in front. More-over, although Dig-In helps the Brigands...it actually leaves the SHs behind just as open.
-Road Hogs can certainly eat range...but Turn 1-2 the range is still often getting to devour the SHs before even the Road Hog gets there. 12" Charge with a 10" spray is great...but range units can spread out.

On the board it means you are relying on Deflection on Tier when using Tier 4.

Lets say instead of advance move they said: army gets stealth first turn, or incorporeal. Those are common Tier benefits. Bam, the enemy has to rely on AoE/magic and then Deflection cuts down even that.

But instead, the Tier tosses them right out front, gives them a stiff salute, and a tin foil hat to shield them.

[Azahul]

So I had a game where my opponent's Gun Mages were firing away at my Slaughterhousers and rolled five 7s in a row. I was quite happy to have Deflection on then

But in general I find its best use is just to make Sturm and Drang a little bit harder to kill with small arms fire. Goodness knows they need the help. The day we get a unit actually capable of screening those guys will be a very happy day indeed for me (and since such a unit would need a medium/heavy base, and by warrior models, and presumably have health, it would also give us a unit that actually really benefits from Deflection I'm hoping for cavalry, personally).

[Lighten]

My complaint is specifically aimed at Split Decision.

<snip>

But instead, the Tier tosses them right out front, gives them a stiff salute, and a tin foil hat to shield them.

That's normal for a lot of tiers, actually. Some of the really popular ones give you a more competitive army that works really well with your caster. A lot of tiers make a substantially less competitive force. Even some of the competitive tiers generate an army that don't properly use the caster/lock's spells. PP has always said the tiers were more for variety/interest than competition.

Check out the eCaine 2 lancers tier, or the Cassius tier with no souls less than 1 point apiece and no hunter/treewalker, or even the very popular pBaldur tier that removes the units that most benefit from the combination of solid ground + stone skin. They're interesting lists, to be sure, but your average tier is less competitive than your non-tier list, and definitely tuned to the caster's "theme" rather than their abilities.

[Benejeseret]

Goodness knows they need the help. The day we get a unit actually capable of screening those guys will be a very happy day indeed for me (and since such a unit would need a medium/heavy base, and by warrior models, and presumably have health, it would also give us a unit that actually really benefits from Deflection I'm hoping for cavalry, personally).

True enough. I'm hoping for Heavy Calvary Slaughterhousers. Brigand-like light calv, but Slaughterhouser Heavy so that Split Decision can make use of in Tier bonuses.

S&D do like the boost. My gaming group has not quite realized how easy they are to shoot, yet. Deflection is useful (I really cannot say that enough). But if the main 'point' of Deflection is to help screen S&D...but then the cynic in my realizes a LOS blocking template would have performed much better, and helped fill a current gap in the S&D arms race, and I just feel bad about not loving the quirks of my favourite caster.

**I guess with all of this, I hope someone chimes in with a, "Oh, but you missed this synergy that makes it all better. Here is how Deflection, S&D, and Split Decision can fit together and be competative (or have even a chance) against Ranged/Mixed opponents."

Instead I keep finding threads reflecting the same difficulties I have been facing:
http://privateerpressforums.com/show...5-going-on-50)

The thing about not liking eCaine's list is the ability to take eCaines other list, or the other Caine, or the other 15+ Cygnar themes, or just play eCaine without a Tier or limits at all.
Yes, eventually we will get there (less, but better than current) but for right now issues are more evident and less able to work around.

[PG_Devilsquid]

How do I get my Slaughterhousers into combat? Brigands.

[Benejeseret]

How do I get my Slaughterhousers into combat? Brigands.

In Split Decision?
I take it you are then purposefully ignoring the Tier advance move on SHs to that Brigands can actually get in front?
- if it works, I'll try it, but it does not exactly make my view of the Split Decision Tiers any better...

At what point do you then abandon Split Decision and opt for S&D in Thornfall so that those Brigands get up where they need to be?

[Beckman]

Lets compare this to two similar spells (Control Area Benefits increasing survival etc)

1. Fog of War. Concealment to everything will give a similar (or better given low RATs) survival chance....except it also benefits all non-warrior models. Also, it triggers special abilities such as Prowl/Camo etc. Farrow do not have prowl/camo, but Thornfall does and our beasts could still benefit from the increase.

2. Solid Ground. Immune to blast damage is FAR more effective than Deflection regarding Blasts. Although it does not help against small arms direct hits directly, Tough Slaughterhousers would love 33% chance to shrug off anything. As is, even making a Tough check against a ranged attack basically nullifies that SH for a turn, if not 2. Again, Solid Ground also benefits the non-warrior abilities and would help screen S&D....

Well, I think your problem here is comparing Deflection against Solid Ground... One of the best CTRL protection spells in the game. Solid Ground is a caster defining spell with every caster that has it.. You build your whole list around spamming infantry that are immune to Blast and Knockdown. Deflection is clearly in the same vein as Solid Ground rather than Fog of War.

Deflection is a great spell. It lets your Slaughterhousers suffer less casualties against blast damage rolls. It's not a spell that stops most shooting. However, against Gun Mages' POW10 shooting, you get do a significant survival boost. It does really not help against a heavy volume of POW12 shooting.

[PG_Devilsquid]

In Split Decision?
I take it you are then purposefully ignoring the Tier advance move on SHs to that Brigands can actually get in front?
- if it works, I'll try it, but it does not exactly make my view of the Split Decision Tiers any better...

At what point do you then abandon Split Decision and opt for S&D in Thornfall so that those Brigands get up where they need to be?

Yep, in Split Decision. Taking a 50pt Split Decision theme list to a tournament this weekend. I use my AD move to get my slaughterhousers into position to support my Brigands and my Beasts, because any time they lead from the front, they die . I run my Brigands pretty much every turn with Heroic Call, and swing the housers close enough to support. Even if one brigand shoot something and puts one point of damage on it, that's enough for the Housers.

it all depends on what your opponent is running and how, but my two units are on the outside, with the brigands on the inside acting as roadblocks/harassment unit/tarpit.