So where do we stand?

[James_Rayner]

Greetings,

So now that the Stormwall has been released Cygnar are in a fairly comfortable place. The question is, where do we stand in your opinion? Have Cygnar been given the buff they really need to rocket them up to the top tables? Or have we been simply buffed up slightly so now we have a chance but might not be "op" as some people may say about the Stormwall.

I'd be very interested in your views. Payday is right around the corner and I've been looking for a reason to get back into my Cygnar for a while and this might just be the ticket.

[silks]

I think we're exactly where we were before - good players will do well with Cygnar, bad ones will suffer
Stormwall and N3mo give us some nice new options and revive some 'dead' casters though

[Sardonic Artery]

I think we're exactly where we were before - good players will do well with Cygnar, bad ones will suffer
Stormwall and N3mo give us some nice new options and revive some 'dead' casters though

Agreed. Although sadly we're in the era where stormwall shows up in every tournie list. SR 2013 might have to limit that.

[PG_Dino-Czar]

It will pass. Soon there will be a wave of anti-armor models that are expensive over-kill on a heavy, but just right for a colossal.

As to where "we" stand? I don't know about you, but I win some and lose some.

[Ghost Rider]

It will pass. Soon there will be a wave of anti-armor models that are expensive over-kill on a heavy, but just right for a colossal.

As to where "we" stand? I don't know about you, but I win some and lose some.

It is called the Behemoth .

Personally I feel that Cygnar received a slight improvement overall. Personally I feel that the Stormwall is slightly better with our options than the other Collossals, but definitely not broken, nor "borken".

[Lanz]

Cygnar's gone up a bit. Directly and by proxy. I think the shift in the meta that colossals will bring will ultimately be good for Cygnar on top of the Stormwall being an awesome colossal.

[dunce002917]

hmmm... having a Stormwall is far from being an auto-win, I think having a model that can take a hit does help Cygnar. I use Stormwall as my diversion for Ol' Rowdy and other Units to sneak in and go for the kill... I have yet to execute that plan.. but soon enough I will...

My other Stormwall tactic is a battering ram... charge in the middle of things, sweep aside puny infantry and smash huge beasts and warjacks.. whatever is left, my other units would take care off... then my caster can walk in and go for the kill...

[Defenstrator]

I think both the Stormwall and Stormstrider have been very solid additions that have given the faction more beef. Also there seems to be a trend to proving the faction can work by some competative players, so I think the faction is likely to do better in the future.

[Juggernautie]

I personal believe that what the Stormwall did, was help Cygnar to be competitive at tournaments with character restrictions. It is no longer who gets the B13, Reinholdt, Nyss and Boomhowlers. Are you going to run eHaley, eStryker, Siege or eHaley. It brought life back into an Electro army. Kraye, Darius, pHaley, Sloan, are like new casters with a Stormwall.
I think it added some punch to a new player and some options to an experienced player. There are also more fun options to play. 2 Stormwalls, 50 point Darius/Stormwall/2x Striders/2x Hammersmiths........
Before the Stormwall, I doubted you would see a Cygner player take a large tournament. Now I have faith Cygnar will at least give them a run for their money.

[GunMageinTraining]

My issue isn't that the Stormwall solved all our problems, so much as it's an attractive choice relative to the alternatives. It provides good point efficiency and helps deal with a few of Cygnar's 'weaker' issues, namely infantry-machine and higher armor.

The other Colossals aren't bad, and even now, Cygnar doesn't have very good answers for them, but their factions have other options that are still attractive, if not more so.

Why bother with a Conquest when Behemoth has as much a ranged game, and an even better melee game vs most targets? Why bother with Kracken when... Moar Banes...

Judicator and Galleon though, are very solid and I expect to see them.

Really, assuming the meta does shift away from infantry-machine... I'm still not sure Cygnar will be in a great place. We still have trouble dealing with Mass Armor that Stormwalls won't solve. We are currently experiencing a bit of an uptick, but I don't think it will be a net-gain in the long run.

[Rapier]

I don't agree - a shift away from infantry machine must be a positive shift for Cygnar - we are not acknowledged a strong infantry faction (for obvious reasons).

If less infantry is on the board though threats to some of our infantry are reduced - CRA for instance is mainly useful against large targets - if Colossals shift the meta onto more jacks and multi-wound infantry because all colossals counter melée single wound infantry without problems. Now our CRA infantry + snipe are back to being a good choice both to help on colossals and because the counters to these units are less prevalent.

(Although Cavalry may become more popular because of multi-wound, high armour, and guaranteed alpha-strike - which would wreck longguners).

[GunMageinTraining]

We are not a strong infantry faction, but we have always had a fair # of good tools for dealing with infantry spam. We don't have great tools for dealing with armor spam. Disruption is a good choice of course, for those things ti works against, but it's ineffective vs opposing colossals.

As for mass LG CRAs, almost all of the Colossals have good AOE support. LGs are still very expensive for their shooting and loads less efficient than most jacks. I no more expect a resurgence in pStryker and pCaine than I do in Trenchers. Some people can and do use them effectively, and pStryker is still very well off in many matchups, but I don't think the meta-shift will improve LGs to any great extent.

[TsavongLah]

I don't agree - a shift away from infantry machine must be a positive shift for Cygnar - we are not acknowledged a strong infantry faction (for obvious reasons).

I don't think so. Most of the time I'm delighted to see infantrymachine across the table, since nearly all of my lists can mulch troopers like nobody's business. Seeing less infantry on the whole would be a bummer, since killing them is one of our in-faction specialities.

On the other hand, we got an awesome Colossal that does things we really needed in-faction, so I'm not complaining much. But I wouldn't say that moving away from infantrymachine is necessarily a positive thing for Cygnar in terms of competition.

[Lanz]

I don't think so. Most of the time I'm delighted to see infantrymachine across the table, since nearly all of my lists can mulch troopers like nobody's business. Seeing less infantry on the whole would be a bummer, since killing them is one of our in-faction specialities.

I wouldn't mind seeing this list. Cygnar is pretty narrow-minded when it comes to anti-infantry, I find, so I'm curious what you take that would be mulching bane thralls, WGI, Kayazay, MHSF, Warded Errants, etc.

[sleet01]

"Cygnar" is pretty narrow-minded? Do tell.

I generally don't have a problem with one or two units of regular infantry, even the WGDS. E-leaps, Triangulation, AOEs, ATGMs, Pulse, and more recently Storm Lances and a Storm Wall have been doing pretty well for me. I have a harder time with MHSF playing Mercs than I do in Cygnar. I'm not even that concerned about regular recycling units such as McThralls or Blackbane's Raiders. It's BS units that just won't die, like Banes, Trolls, and Gators that really chap my ***. Those are still the units we need a solid answer for.

[Lanz]

"Cygnar" is pretty narrow-minded? Do tell.

Because so much of it relies on attack rolls and direct hits. Which isn't to say that all of it does, but most cygnar anti-infantry has reasonable odds of missing. Even triangulation is a skill check that can fail.

Coming from Protectorate, I'd like to see a Cygnar list that 'mulches infantry' straight up. Because I know what infantry-mulching looks like. The kind of infantry-mulching that massacres any unit, and as far as I know, Cygnar's doesn't have much of it.

Except Ryan's Mage Storm. That's boss when it comes to anti-infantry, but she's the only model in the faction with anything like that, as far as I'm aware.

[sleet01]

Well, surprise surprise, Cygnar doesn't have PoM-level infantry-mulching. We don't have Khador-level movement shenanigans or ARM, we don't have Retribution-level shooting nonsense, we're missing Cryx-level ridiculous casters and recycling, and we're just about breaking even with Trollbloods for the amount of the color blue we can field. We have to make do with those things I mentioned, sorry.

[Juggernautie]

All the Banes I know are scarred to death of the Gunmages. Tarter Sauce is dead afraid of Siege and the B13. Well all are afraid of the B13. Then there are Nyss and Boomhowlers with Murdock. With a little help, Stormguard can really rock. In a way, I think the Stormwall has helped our infantry. People are more focused on it, and not the rest of the army.

But yes, the MHSF are just wrong.

[GunMageinTraining]

Yea, like I said, I think this bump is temporary.

Even with Stormwall, we still are the faction of hoping for high dice to even dink, the pow 10s, the 'our heaviest infantry still dies to blasts on a regular basis', the lack of defensive tech, paired with our poor stats and overall fragility.

Really, Cygnar as a whole is only one step more 'resilient' than the majority of Cryx stuff, but just about EVERYTHING they field has defensive tech that we won't ever have. Recycling, stealth, force barriers, generating new models/units, cheap, and almost all of it is likewise more offensively bent.

Cryx hit hard, but die easily... except they don't.

Cygnar don't hit very hard, and die rather easily. Though we do it from range for the most part... though the game really isn't built to be range conducive. This isn't 40k, and I for one and glad for it, but it does mean something.

All the Banes I know are scarred to death of the Gunmages. Tarter Sauce is dead afraid of Siege and the B13. Well all are afraid of the B13. Then there are Nyss and Boomhowlers with Murdock. With a little help, Stormguard can really rock. In a way, I think the Stormwall has helped our infantry. People are more focused on it, and not the rest of the army.

But yes, the MHSF are just wrong.

Banes may die decently well to ATGMs, but they still have decent survivability and no-penalty tough on top. McThralls will die, but then be reborn anew, Satyxis will eat ATGMs alive.

[PG_Agamemnon]

I never have a problem winning with Cygnar. Play to your strengths, your enemy's weakness and pick your battles you should do fine.

Here is a suggestion. Ignore the crybaby whiners of general consensus and up your game play. Yes there may be a few over powered pieces out there. But I also believe there are answers to those pieces. Warmachine is like chess.. study, learn and become a better player rather than wallowing in self pity.

[King-of-Storms]

Wait a minute, Cygnar has no "infantry mulching" capabilities? Me thinks you need to take another gander at the ol' Cygnarian armory.

Hm...Sentinel, Gun Mages, Long Gunners, Stormguard, Stormlances, Cyclones, Trencher Chain Gun, Trencher Cannon, Minuteman....

Yeah you knock the POW 10s but you forget quantity of output is it's own quality of firepower. Against multi-wound heavy infantry I can understand your sentiments because the best you can do against such things is "pla-tink" them to death which has worked on a few occasions.

Cygnar lacks the awesome steamrolling infantry machine of Khador and Menoth but I think some of you are too near sighted to look at the broader aspect that Cygnar has everything you're looking for. The only catch is that you have to figure what it is because it won't jump out in front of you and shout "here I am!"

As for the lack of anti-armor assets....don't make me laugh. You tell that to my Centurions and Hammersmiths.... People who make these assertions may need to stop playing like they're Khador and play like Inspector Gadget. So many tools... so little opportunities.

[Lanz]

Hm...Sentinel, Gun Mages, Long Gunners, Stormguard, Stormlances, Cyclones, Trencher Chain Gun, Trencher Cannon, Minuteman....

Yeah, that's sorta my point. Of all those things you listed, only one is actually productive against all-ranges of infantry, and that's the Minuteman. Everything else gets hosed by stealth and high-def infantry.

Cygnar has a lot of stuff that fills an infantry-clearing role, but very little of it is outstanding in terms of anti-infantry. Most of it is very specific, good against far fewer things than they are bad against. Cygnar has little overarching anti-infantry, except electro-stuff, which covers the high-def low arm targets.

[Pydracor]

Everything else gets hosed by stealth and high-def infantry.

Oh, and you include the Gun Mages he mentioned in this statement?!
Of all the shooting infantry I know, I do think these are the most "all comers" guys. With RAT7 they hit DEF14 more or less reliably and with a possible range of 14", they often enough hit DEF16 more or less reliably. They ignore stealth (you DID take the UA, right? This could just as well be a 7 model unit that costs 8 pts). They have magic weapons, thus ignore incorporeal. They can even deal with heavy armor (which you didn't even mention) by just pushing the models back or knocking them down. By now, I have killed Tartarus three times with a CRA from the Gun Mages.
Unsupported, it doesn't get much better than that.

I have played against huge Cryx swarms and I rarely have a problem with infantry masses when I play Cygnar. I would definately count our faction as "infantry mulching"

Apart from that: I do think, that Cygnar will get back a few of its problems, once all the other Colossals have hit the table. We certainly did have a problem with high ARM lists before stuff like the Stormwall and the Minuteman with its high POW cannons came out and with a meta shift towards Colossals, everyone else will put their heavy hitters on the table, which also pack a high ARM stat in most cases.
Apart from that, I'm pretty impressed with the stuff we got in Colossals and Wrath and I really think, Cygnar got a little power boost overall.

[Lanz]

Oh, and you include the Gun Mages he mentioned in this statement?!
Of all the shooting infantry I know, I do think these are the most "all comers" guys. With RAT7 they hit DEF14 more or less reliably and with a possible range of 14", they often enough hit DEF16 more or less reliably. They ignore stealth (you DID take the UA, right? This could just as well be a 7 model unit that costs 8 pts). They have magic weapons, thus ignore incorporeal. They can even deal with heavy armor (which you didn't even mention) by just pushing the models back or knocking them down. By now, I have killed Tartarus three times with a CRA from the Gun Mages.
Unsupported, it doesn't get much better than that.

I have played against huge Cryx swarms and I rarely have a problem with infantry masses when I play Cygnar. I would definately count our faction as "infantry mulching"

Apart from that: I do think, that Cygnar will get back a few of its problems, once all the other Colossals have hit the table. We certainly did have a problem with high ARM lists before stuff like the Stormwall and the Minuteman with its high POW cannons came out and with a meta shift towards Colossals, everyone else will put their heavy hitters on the table, which also pack a high ARM stat in most cases.
Apart from that, I'm pretty impressed with the stuff we got in Colossals and Wrath and I really think, Cygnar got a little power boost overall.

Yes, gun mages are good. B13 right alongside them. With their integrated snipe, they can even frequently get aiming bonuses for even better RAT. They still have to hit, though, and are only 7 models after the UA. They won't wipe out an entire list of infantry by themselves, and they won't do much to really any khador infantry except doomreavers. As mentioned, they'll get shredded by Satyxis too.

I'm more inclined towards a Storm Strider, personally. I'm surprised no one has mentioned that on the topic of anti-infantry. It's probably one of the best options around.

[TerTer]

Infantry mulching? Don't see a problem with Cygnar here. Take THead can clear 1-2 units in one blow, B13 mage storm, ATGM kill high def, low arm models with little support, hard thing is to kill low def, but high arm models, like 18+arm, so out pow10's do nothing to them. Answer is take Bigger guns for it, Storm striders, SW even Storm tower, that can shot there high pow guns and lot of shots. With right support we kill infantry just fine, 1 on 1, unit for unit without support we don't have good answers to high arm. As out heavy hitting meele troops most of the time do not get the alpha strike on enemy, for example Stormblades. I never had problem with infantry in cygnar, more of a problem is beats heavy lists, when you need lot's of punch.

[TsavongLah]

I wouldn't mind seeing this list. Cygnar is pretty narrow-minded when it comes to anti-infantry, I find, so I'm curious what you take that would be mulching bane thralls, WGI, Kayazay, MHSF, Warded Errants, etc.

Here are two lists that have seen significant amounts of play time over the past two months or so, during my LGS' league:

pCaine [Tier 4, 34 points]
-Hunter
ATGM+UA
-Defender
ATGM+UA
-Defender
Black 13th

Occasionally I'll drop one of the Defenders for a second Hunter and add a Charger to Caine's battlegroup. Anyway, I don't think I need to explain how this list can reliably kill fifteen to twenty warrior models a turn, be they Stealth, high DEF, Tough, whatever. Add pCaine's feat and it can kill even more, or kill about the same and allow some of the Gun Mages to focus on other tasks.

Nemo3 [50 points]
-Finch
-Lancer
-Thunderhead
-Stormwall
Stormblades+UA
Arlan
Junior
Stormsmiths x3

I've also played a few games at 35 with Nemo3, and I generally drop the Stormwall and fiddle with the solos a little. I've found that this list can also reliably deal with fifteen or more warrior models each turn (Chain Lightning, Stormsmiths Triangulating off the Storm Pods, the Stormwall itself, the Thunderhead, occasionally Nemo's gun, &c). Half the anti-infantry tech ignores high DEF and stealth completely, and the list can even put a pile of high ARM infantry models in the dirt on feat turn if it needs to, just with the various POW10-12s normally used for lighter infantry.

Also, those lists are more on the fun 'n' flavorful side of list-building, and I'm not an exceptionally talented player. But they have reliably dealt with Banes, Satyxis, MHSF, Trolls, Winter Guard, and several stacks of less scary infantry from various factions. So, yes, at least in my experience, Cygnar can easily wipe out multiple units of infantry in a turn or two.

[Lanz]

Okay, yeah, that's sort of what I was expecting. I mean, when you dedicate most of the models to anti-infantry, you should be able to pull off decent anti-infantry.

[Pydracor]

They still have to hit, though, and are only 7 models after the UA. They won't wipe out an entire list of infantry by themselves, and they won't do much to really any khador infantry except doomreavers. As mentioned, they'll get shredded by Satyxis too.

Ah come on, what kind of argument is this?! Who would expect a SINGLE UNIT that costs 8 pts to "wipe out an entire list of infantry by themselves"?!
Which unit would do you propose, then, that can slaughter high DEF, high ARM, multi wound, stealth, incorporeal, superfast melee and ranged all equally? Because from what you say above, it seems like the only "infantry mulching" unit that you would accept to carry that name has to be able to do all of that.

Interestingly enough, the ATGM + UA only have issues with high ARM and multi wound in that list and for those, they even have a decent workaround with knocking them back and / or down. Even the highly feared MHSF have a worthy opponent in the ATGM.

Oh, and regarding Khador? I have shot more than enough Kayazy with my ATGM, and those SPD4 ManOWars really hate a 3" push. Also, Satyxis have a realistic 14" threat range, which is outshot by moving Gun Mages easily. Do they need support to hit them? In most cases yes, but which shooting unit doesn't?!

[TsavongLah]

Okay, yeah, that's sort of what I was expecting. I mean, when you dedicate most of the models to anti-infantry, you should be able to pull off decent anti-infantry.

Actually, I don't often need "most" of the models in either list to deal with major infantry threats. The first list can do it with one unit of Mages and the B13 most of the time, and often the second list only needs a Chain Lightning or two and the Stormsmiths to completely neuter an opponent's infantry threat. Yes, there are times when more resources are required, but how many lists in how many factions can wipe out a full unit of Satyxis+UA, a full unit of Banes+UA, and Tartarus, at range and all in one turn, should it need to? If that isn't efficient infantry mulching, then I don't know what is. Anyway, you sound like you're punting; can I take this as an admission that Cygnar is, in fact, awesome at anti-infantry?

[Juggernautie]

anti-infantry?
-Gun Mages
-B13
-Stormwall's small guns.
-Nyss
-Reach units on feat turn with eStyrker / EHaley.
-uuu, we have some flat out nasty shooting casters that can wipe units.
-We can hold them up with cheep units like Risen and Stealhead, then charge back with Storm...... units.
-We can bounce lighning all over the place.
-A lot of the above are Def 14/15, and really hard to get hit back.
-Risen, Stealhead Halberders and Stormgard can gang up to hit higher armor. Stormblades can deal some damage.
-We have ways to boost damage.
-We can also shot around units to get caster Kills.
-Siege/eStryker/pStrker/Sloan would all laugh.
-Stryders anyone?


So I feel pretty good against playing most lists that do not include MHSF.

[Defenstrator]

I wouldn't mind seeing this list. Cygnar is pretty narrow-minded when it comes to anti-infantry, I find, so I'm curious what you take that would be mulching bane thralls, WGI, Kayazay, MHSF, Warded Errants, etc.

Storm Striders and Chain Lightning do it for me, and there's always the ATGM of course.

I'm also in the camp of thinking we can deal with infantry better than beef. My most feared list with Cygnar isn't infantry spam but looking across the table at three Skorne heavies that have the Krea behind them spamming its aura. It's pretty easy to run out of things to kill that with.

[Pydracor]

Same here, though I would add the Cetrati brick to that nemesis for me. With Defender's Ward, Gobber Smoke and the Krea aura, these get REALLY ridiculous

[Dan from Chicago]

Yeah, that's sorta my point. Of all those things you listed, only one is actually productive against all-ranges of infantry, and that's the Minuteman. Everything else gets hosed by stealth and high-def infantry.

Cygnar has a lot of stuff that fills an infantry-clearing role, but very little of it is outstanding in terms of anti-infantry. Most of it is very specific, good against far fewer things than they are bad against. Cygnar has little overarching anti-infantry, except electro-stuff, which covers the high-def low arm targets.

I use Storm Lances. Between Path to Victory and Deadeye, High Def low arm infantry is toast. some get fried than their friends get fried, some get speared and their friends get fried. Not many live

And they can kill stuff like Gatormen and MOWs as well.

[sleet01]

I think Lanz is sad because he's started Cygnar but just discovered there's no un-target-able, un-kill-able, self-buffing, AOE-spamming unit like Zealots in the faction. So, so sad. Good... use your depressive feelings, boy. Let the sadness flow through you. Take your assassination caster. Strike an enemy 'caster down with your Sniped Defender, and your journey towards the Mweh side will be complete!

[ThunderClad]

I have actually been having the same problem of dealing with infantry swarm, but thats because of egoreshades tier list, and me building my lists to deal more with hordes. And that gunmage army is an easy solution to infantry swarm.

Also on Cygnar, we got a buff from legendary nemo (tier 2 epic) and the stormwall, but cygnar is one army where you need to use some thought process behind them.

[Lanz]

Ah come on, what kind of argument is this?! Who would expect a SINGLE UNIT that costs 8 pts to "wipe out an entire list of infantry by themselves"?!

No, but a vanquisher + vassal does it for 10 points (except it's also a heavy warjack and a melee beatstick).

Which unit would do you propose, then, that can slaughter high DEF, high ARM, multi wound, stealth, incorporeal, superfast melee and ranged all equally? Because from what you say above, it seems like the only "infantry mulching" unit that you would accept to carry that name has to be able to do all of that.

I wouldn't propose a unit. I'd probably propose a Storm Strider, which I keep forgetting to mention, and am surprised no one else has.

Interestingly enough, the ATGM + UA only have issues with high ARM and multi wound in that list and for those, they even have a decent workaround with knocking them back and / or down. Even the highly feared MHSF have a worthy opponent in the ATGM.

I have gun mages too. RAT 7 is indeed awesome on a ranged unit, but it's not an auto-hit. Against most infantry, they're likely to miss at least a few shots, and with the squad so small to begin with, a 'few shots' suddenly translates to only making 3-4 actual kills that turn.

Oh, and regarding Khador? I have shot more than enough Kayazy with my ATGM, and those SPD4 ManOWars really hate a 3" push. Also, Satyxis have a realistic 14" threat range, which is outshot by moving Gun Mages easily. Do they need support to hit them? In most cases yes, but which shooting unit doesn't?!

So you land every single hit on the IF'd kayazays, always roll 3" for distance against MoWs (who your opponent never bothers to stagger in order to prevent pushes, which is odd given that they have shield wall), and you auto-hit the DEF 16 (14+force barrier) satyxis in every game?

Your math doesn't add up. Your dice must be magic. Or you're taking rangers, in which case, again, you're adding +5 to the cost of that anti-infantry unit. Not that rangers can't kill anything themselves, but I find you usually have to run a ranger to get the bonus, and if you're issuing a run order, none of them will be able to shoot.

I think Lanz is sad because he's started Cygnar but just discovered there's no un-target-able, un-kill-able, self-buffing, AOE-spamming unit like Zealots in the faction. So, so sad. Good... use your depressive feelings, boy. Let the sadness flow through you. Take your assassination caster. Strike an enemy 'caster down with your Sniped Defender, and your journey towards the Mweh side will be complete!

I'll let that slide. That was fairly amusing.

[sleet01]

I think when people are talking about supporting their ATGMs, they're referring to our several and various RAT-boosting spells. We haven't got anything as good as the Choir, but Deadeye, Temporal Barrier, CRAs, Kara's feat, etc. do make our shooters much more accurate. True Sight on magical weapons ignores a ton of environmental defensive buffs as well, so many times they're only dealing with base DEF (or, with IF or Force Barrier, base DEF +2 or +3). Finally, we may not be capable of doing a ton of damage but we almost never have a problem excising the one model that grants those bonuses, so we aren't always forced to actually deal with those bonuses on every attack.

Which is not to say that IFWG Deathstars and Force Barrier Satyxis aren't *obnoxious as hell*, just that our ranged support options are a little broader than just Rangers.

I'm curious what you see as Cygnar's biggest strength and weakness, Lanz. Most of us seem to see infantry-killing *generally* as a Cygnaran strong point, while taking out massed heavy armor is a weakness. You seem to have a different view. Care to speak on that?

[whitesox]

No, but a vanquisher + vassal does it for 10 points (except it's also a heavy warjack and a melee beatstick).

A stormclad with electro leap can take a very good chunk out of a unit in one activation as well

I wouldn't propose a unit. I'd probably propose a Storm Strider, which I keep forgetting to mention, and am surprised no one else has.

agree

I have gun mages too. RAT 7 is indeed awesome on a ranged unit, but it's not an auto-hit. Against most infantry, they're likely to miss at least a few shots, and with the squad so small to begin with, a 'few shots' suddenly translates to only making 3-4 actual kills that turn.

Cygnar are not an attrition faction, we cant compare to the damage out put of menoth or khador, cygnar wins by scenario, assassination and controlled aggression

So you land every single hit on the IF'd kayazays, always roll 3" for distance against MoWs (who your opponent never bothers to stagger in order to prevent pushes, which is odd given that they have shield wall), and you auto-hit the DEF 16 (14+force barrier) satyxis in every game?

I personally only use ATGM with a dead eye caster and they get 5+ kills a turn with snipe, aim etc. ATGM are not worth it without access to deadeye and/or rangers. The extra dice for the critical makes the unit shine

Your math doesn't add up. Your dice must be magic. Or you're taking rangers, in which case, again, you're adding +5 to the cost of that anti-infantry unit. Not that rangers can't kill anything themselves, but I find you usually have to run a ranger to get the bonus, and if you're issuing a run order, none of them will be able to shoot.

I'll let that slide. That was fairly amusing.

Good play should leave a few rangers in a position where they are within 12" of a location likely to be taken by choice enemy units in their next activation. So they should be able to walk, give shooting bonus and shoot during there following activation.


Anyhoo, we shouldnt compare Cygnar with any other faction, Cygnar play a different game and cant rely on defenders warded errants or iron fleshed winterguard to force the win they have to use the tools at their disposal to win the cygnar way.

Manoeuvrability, ranged accurate direct fire, unusual assassination vectors are cygnars strengths. Play to your casters strength and you'll be fine.


In regards to Cygnar at current tournies, yes pre SR2012 they did struggle to get on the higher tables, only the best players got Cygnar on the top boards but they were generally a lower table faction. With there current releases they have gained some momento however we will have to wait and see if it will last

[Juggernautie]

You must mean no one cool, mentioned the Stryder. I did though.

[King-of-Storms]

Yeah, that's sorta my point. Of all those things you listed, only one is actually productive against all-ranges of infantry, and that's the Minuteman. Everything else gets hosed by stealth and high-def infantry.

Cygnar has a lot of stuff that fills an infantry-clearing role, but very little of it is outstanding in terms of anti-infantry. Most of it is very specific, good against far fewer things than they are bad against. Cygnar has little overarching anti-infantry, except electro-stuff, which covers the high-def low arm targets.

The B13 and Electro leaps were nobrainers because what else would they be used for?

I'll admit that the one thing that is hurting us Swans is the lack of Weapon Master. You'll hear more groans about pathfinder, but terrain has never been a problem for me. Actually the more rugged the terrain the better it is for me believe it or not. (Maybe it has something to do with being a mountain man, I digress)

Minuteman in my opinion is either the goto anti-heavy infantry light jack (other than the grenadier) or your flea jumping double hand throwing freakazoid of a warjack. I'll play it bothways just to be cheeky.