What 3 would you play in a 3 list event

[tuttleboy]

I'm coming back to Ret after taking a break from them for about 9 months. I'm stoked to be back in the mix and will be bringing them to a pretty big event in August so I've decided to concentrate on the 3 casters that I want to use, Kaelyssa, Rahn, and either Garryth or Ravyn.

In the interest of better list building and hoping to get a leg up on the competition I'm asking for advice on whar 3 casters you'd bring and what youd consider "must have" for each in a 50 point steamroller gotta play each at least once event.

The only Teir lists I could play are Rahn and Kae's.

[joelker41]

My three right now:

Kaelyssa - Jack Heavy. Disco, Banshee, and Phoenix + 2 Arcanists. Most people don't.know how to fight all three and our hard hitting infantry together.

Rahn - Season to taste here. I prefer Nyss + Full Sentinels for a whole lot of board coverage.

Ossyan - Currently leaning non-tiered with Invictors or MHSF + an extra solo. I am actually having great fun running his tier 1 giving you additional arcanists and the ability to play 3-4 heavies and still be focus efficient. I know you said he isn't one of the tiers you can run but if you have vyre myrmidons laying around purchasing one or two more arcanists isn't a bad idea.

Like I said I am leaning non-tiered with him right now. Him + MHSF vs Colossals just feels unfair.

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Kaelyssa - Jack Heavy. Disco, Banshee, and Phoenix + 2 Arcanists. Most people don't.know how to fight all three and our hard hitting infantry together.

You do love the Triumvirate, man.

Anyway, I think the current field is a bit of a no brainer.

Ossyan to murder the Skorne/Khador style ARM spam.
Kaelyssa to remove the magic option (largely Cryx and Circle, but any other magic heavy fight too) and any matchup that you're just not quite sure about.
eVyros to run over the ranged game or any non-magic heavy list that only runs a couple heavies.

If eVyros isn't something you're willing to do, then The Ravyn List will pick up the slack in a similar fashion (but without the "screw-you-Legion" goodness that Vyros can do).

I'm not a Rahn fan. Too much can go wrong. He's a good caster, no doubt. But I don't see needing his strengths when the above casters can provide theirs.

[joelker41]

You do love the Triumvirate, man.

I'm not a Rahn fan. Too much can go wrong. He's a good caster, no doubt. But I don't see needing his strengths when the above casters can provide theirs.

I.pick Rahn and Kaelyssa because less can go wrong LOL. The triumvirate is my favorite combo in Ret with Kaelyssa so I am a bit biased. I run her not because I am trying to screw certain matchups, I run her because there are very few matchups she is screwed by.

I really don't understand the Rahn comment though. He wins at least 80% of the time for me, that includes tournaments. He is our scenario butt-kicker and runs pretty.much anything in the faction well.


I still feel like if you aren't bringing Rahn you're doing it wrong in 3 lists. I feel the same way about Ravyn that you do about Rahn. She can still win, but the road there is a very statistically dependent one.

[Panzeh]

Rahn is a great caster, probably the only A+ level caster in the faction, and he can go with any army you want to put out there, he has the tools to help, as long as you bring an arc node or two. I don't see how people can think "too much can go wrong" with him and then talk about Kaelyssa and Ravyn, who both have bad matchups galore, though Kae is still a pretty solid caster.

I think eVyros is a tough sell to anyone because he requires plenty of new models(well, not so much new as ones not used with other casters) to make work, and i'm not convinced about his ability to go up against gunlines(aside from eLylyth) any better than Kaelyssa can.

[tuttleboy]

Vyros2 would be fun, but I don't think he'll be out in time for me to use. I haven't run Ossy much and wasn't really planning on doing so until Hyperion dropped, that's the only time I could ever see wanting to cast his crappy boost after spell that Skarre2 has as a freakin' ability at all times. -le sigh-

@joelker41 Tier or not for Rahn? I think maybe non-tier to get at some of the other units/solos to help him a bit.

Also, which caster would you use Eiryss1 with and which gets Eiryss2?

[Panzeh]

Tier for Rahn is an all-in build that I wouldn't do unless you had everything else locked up in terms of matchups. It makes Rahn insanely good against some lists and is a lot of fun to play, but it also gives him a bunch of bad matchups that he never had before if you could take dawnguard and the mage hunters(solo or unit).

[joelker41]

I do not run Rahn Tiered. It removes his multitasking ability when he gets handicapped by using all those mittens.

I usually run eEiryss with Rahn and pEiryss with Ravyn. Ossyan with MHSF and MHAs don't need her as much. pEiryss is a great security blanket for Ravyn because if you fail the snipe feat go you have the Disruptor or Death bolts to finish them off. I've won games where the MHSF left casters with 3 boxes and pEiryss under Feat doesn't miss much of anything.

[Ralphus]

Three list would be Kaelyssa, Ossy and Rahn. Having Kaelyssa dropping two True Sighted, Phantom Huntered Rifts on a unit of stealthed models is always a glorious thing.

[PG_evhall7]

You do love the Triumvirate, man.

Hey I don't want to derail the thread to much, but I've never paid to much attention so I have no idea what the Triumvirate is or what the tactics around it are. Can someone shed a little light on it for me?

[Fateweaver]

Hey I don't want to derail the thread to much, but I've never paid to much attention so I have no idea what the Triumvirate is or what the tactics around it are. Can someone shed a little light on it for me?

From what I understand it's the Warjack combo of Discordia, a Banshee, and a Phoenix, the three warjacks considered by many to be the best in our faction.

[Mastershake]

Rahn is a great caster, probably the only A+ level caster in the faction, and he can go with any army you want to put out there, he has the tools to help, as long as you bring an arc node or two. I don't see how people can think "too much can go wrong" with him and then talk about Kaelyssa and Ravyn, who both have bad matchups galore, though Kae is still a pretty solid caster.

I think eVyros is a tough sell to anyone because he requires plenty of new models(well, not so much new as ones not used with other casters) to make work, and i'm not convinced about his ability to go up against gunlines(aside from eLylyth) any better than Kaelyssa can.

pGoreshade, eKaya, eLylyth and Barnabas isn't "bad matchups galore" and Ravyn has some compelling answers to the top tier. Also Kaelyssa doesn't have "bad matchups" at all really (and if she does you're doing it wrong). She's got good spell defense, good spell offense, can take out stealthed solos, can cripple melee armies with her feat, can screw over transfers at range and is generally difficult to spell assassinate. I've had fewer matchups with Kaelyssa where I was screwed than with Rahn.

My current lineup would be Ravyn, pVyros (hyperion spam) and Kaelyssa. Partly because they cover different bases, but also because wildly different armies are needed to meet each. Ravyn also gives you a degree of matchup control just by being on the roster (Kaelyssa does as well, but she's less well known so people walk into it more) whereas Rahn only has a handful of those "do you really want to roll this out?" matchups.

Ossyan is not encouraging as a lineup caster because of a lack of consistancy. Ravyn and Kaelyssa will generally win the same games with a large degree of regularity simply because the variables in what they do is much smaller (Snipe and the Feat make for consistant accuracy short of catastrophic dice and Kaelyssa with Sylys is something you can set a watch to). Rahn has two factions where in three list format you'll likely have two if not all three of the lists with heavy spell defense (Menoth and Circle). Three lists opens it up a little more, but I don't like having a caster locked for two factions. Garryth is fun, but not amazing.

Between eVyros (likely tier) and pVyros Hyperion spam the Hyperion spam seems different enough from both other list to give an opponent pause since they simply may not be able to risk bringing better lists that can't answer double colossals. eVyros seems like he'd be a champ at scenario sniping, but it requires finding good scenarios and going first and I've ran into a few annoying parrys (some obscure like doomy tier and some not like eDenny).

Overall my thought is that Ravyn, Kaelyssa and pVyros gives you a lot of variability in what you can do with two of the lists being able to at least hold if not overrun scenario points and all three requiring some very different responses.

[PG_Chris Cuevas]

Three list would be Kaelyssa, Ossy and Rahn. Having Kaelyssa dropping two True Sighted, Phantom Huntered Rifts on a unit of stealthed models is always a glorious thing.

I'm with you.

I'd stick with Ossy as my main hitter. Truly a tool-box of a caster. Kaelyssa would be in there in case I bump across a warmachine list thats got me outclassed (Kreoss,Sevy, Sorscha,Irusk,Deneghra) and Rahn if I happen to see Terminus or Venethrax staring at me.

[bouncymischa]

Between eVyros (likely tier) and pVyros Hyperion spam the Hyperion spam seems different enough from both other list to give an opponent pause since they simply may not be able to risk bringing better lists that can't answer double colossals.

I'm curious what you'd bring in a 50 point two Hyperion list with pVyros...

[Rogue Sun]

I'm curious what you'd bring in a 50 point two Hyperion list with pVyros...

This just gave me a thought. Would 2 Hyperions qualify for tier 2 in his NQ tier (meaning -1 cost)?

As for the topic at hand: Kaelyssa, Ossyan and Rhan are my go to right now. Rhan is a great generalist, and while he does have some bad matchups, his flexibility can be pretty useful. Kaelyssa is my go to caster always and surprisingly enough I run her tier list. It is very strong for a denial game and tends to win via scenario a lot since the threat of assassination is what most opponents focus on. Ossyan I was stoked about, then got down on him for a while because my feat would go really great but then 3 models would assassinate me like it was nothing, but now I'm back on him again. He is truly a solid caster, you just HAVE to invest in protecting him on feat turn. This usually means camping 5+ focus at min and putting plenty of cover/models/both between him and your opponent.

[bakaryu]

Currently my first choice lies with pVyros and his Forces book tier2, but this is purely for the second free sentinel UA and the fact that marshalled Daemons with pronto are bonkers.

Garryth is my other most consistent caster, generally his army will kill a full unit (or a slew of support solos in the case of jack/beast heavy lists) every turn, and has enough high threat range solos of MAT7 or higher to dissuade the enemy caster from coming too close to really help support his force. Also built in stealth really does help a caster so much (except vs legion of course).

My third caster right now really is up in the air, I have been using Ravyn and Ossyan a lot but I definitely prefer more of a combined arms approach, so I have been thinking of using Kaelyssa more who can both protect ranged and melee with her feat and has pretty compelling counters to Retribution's more problematic matchups.

[bouncymischa]

This just gave me a thought. Would 2 Hyperions qualify for tier 2 in his NQ tier (meaning -1 cost)?

Colossals aren't heavy warjacks, and thus don't apply for any tiers that require heavy warjacks, nor gain benefits applied to heavy warjacks.

On the other hand, you could just barely make a Tier 4 list with pVyros' No Quarter theme -- two Hyperions, two Manticores, two Houseguard Rifle Teams and 2 Arcanists would just fit within 50 points and be a Tier 4 list. :P

[5-Cents]

As far as Hyperion spam with pVyros, I came up with this

pVros-6
Hyperion-18
Hyperion-18

Dawnguard Sentinels(Full)-9
UA-2
Dawnguard Sentinels(Full)-9
UA-0

Qualifies for his forces book Tier 2 giving a free UA to Sents as long as there's at least 2 units, seems like a lot of heavy armor moving across the field, and with mobility Hyperion will be moving with spd 7.

[Gho5t]

Kaelyssa is currently my top choice.
For a two list SR, Ossyan is my current second choice.
Garryth would be my third.

I hardly ever play Rahn, Ravyn, or Vyros. When playing casually, Garryth is my most frequented 'caster. I don't normally play Ravyn in casual settings because Snipe-Feat-GO isn't much fun for my close friends, so then I don't get much practice with her and then I'm not confident enough with her to bring her to tournaments. :P

[Mastershake]

I'm curious what you'd bring in a 50 point two Hyperion list with pVyros...

pVyros
-Hyperion
-Hyperion
-Aspis
-Aspis
Arcanist
Arcanist
MHSF full + UA

MHSF seems wierd at first, but with Hyperions around all they need to do is clear infantry and get in the way for enemy heavies. Aspis was an option before, but with the errata that sealed it. Shield guarding eEiryss, Ghorman and Pistol Wraiths is important (and you know actual bullets) and pVyros' feat can make the little guys monsters.

[joelker41]

Really sucks that pVyros on triggers off friendly faction kills (if I remember correctly), Nyss screening two colossals would be pretty brutal.

[Mastershake]

Really sucks that pVyros on triggers off friendly faction kills (if I remember correctly), Nyss screening two colossals would be pretty brutal.

I'd rather have the MHSF anyways, AD is a big deal when the models you need to screen are generally going ot be SPD 7 turn 1 and for the purposes of this list you really don't need CRA or WM, but Phantom Seeker is invaluable.

[DesertSpiral]

I'd think you'd want to take Ossyan or Ravyn as i feel both really want Aiyana and Holt more than anything to help secure the Menoth match up.
It's a difficult choice depending on whether you feel the accuracy and snipe wins out over the damage and more toolboxy approach of Ossyan (also shatterstorm is good for EAsphyxious and Morvana)
I'm not sure which i prefer because they both behave differently but do shooting really well. Ravyn is probably better for the simple fact that snipe is incredible on MHSF, that being said though with the possiblity of skewed double colossal lists Ossyans feat becomes a lot more attractive in addition to its ability to flatten stealth medium infantry (via sfa).

I think its a difficult choice at least anyway.

I love Rahn for a three caster tournament just because he is so good at a lot of scenario's (particularly the flag ones) and his list doesn't have to be that magic dependant to still funciton effectively. A single unit of mages does pretty well and two is also really good but it doesn't really need any more than that and if the rest of the list combined arms then the mages can flex where needed because they aren't a bad melee option when it comes to it. Not stellar but passable.
By all accounts if Bethayne can run well without hex hunters then Rahn should be able to run k with out over balancing the lsit with mages.

I really like Kaelyssa for three casters too - as has been stated above she has a lot of answers and the double sylas rift node isn't always apparent to all - not to mention a great way to clear out stealth and if you couple it with an AFG you can really make the ground tricky to get through. I like her with a pretty balanced list since she's a relatively balanced caster - i haven't played her in a while though so maybe that would change now.

I also like Pvyros too - mostly because i like him, i feel though that he has strong answers for Legion (particularly ELylith) and the simple thing is that your heavies running 16 are engaging feated ravagores and ravagores under Lyl aren't the best combat monsters. I had a list a while ago designed for this match up since she was really popular in my area and it did really well (until i scenario'd myself - stupid grind! ). Anyway I like Vyros and depending on whoelse i took he'd be a consideration - it also helps that he isn't popular and a lot of people have relatively little idea what he is capable of.

If i had to pick today i'd take Rahn, Kaelyssa, and Ossyan. Not sure for Gencon though - but with possibly four of the colossals present i'd probably rather have Ossyan than Ravyn - although caster kill is still a pretty big trump of hers. Maybe Ravyn!

[Mastershake]

I'd think you'd want to take Ossyan or Ravyn as i feel both really want Aiyana and Holt more than anything to help secure the Menoth match up.
It's a difficult choice depending on whether you feel the accuracy and snipe wins out over the damage and more toolboxy approach of Ossyan (also shatterstorm is good for EAsphyxious and Morvana)
I'm not sure which i prefer because they both behave differently but do shooting really well. Ravyn is probably better for the simple fact that snipe is incredible on MHSF, that being said though with the possiblity of skewed double colossal lists Ossyans feat becomes a lot more attractive in addition to its ability to flatten stealth medium infantry (via sfa).

I think its a difficult choice at least anyway.

I love Rahn for a three caster tournament just because he is so good at a lot of scenario's (particularly the flag ones) and his list doesn't have to be that magic dependant to still funciton effectively. A single unit of mages does pretty well and two is also really good but it doesn't really need any more than that and if the rest of the list combined arms then the mages can flex where needed because they aren't a bad melee option when it comes to it. Not stellar but passable.
By all accounts if Bethayne can run well without hex hunters then Rahn should be able to run k with out over balancing the lsit with mages.

I really like Kaelyssa for three casters too - as has been stated above she has a lot of answers and the double sylas rift node isn't always apparent to all - not to mention a great way to clear out stealth and if you couple it with an AFG you can really make the ground tricky to get through. I like her with a pretty balanced list since she's a relatively balanced caster - i haven't played her in a while though so maybe that would change now.

I also like Pvyros too - mostly because i like him, i feel though that he has strong answers for Legion (particularly ELylith) and the simple thing is that your heavies running 16 are engaging feated ravagores and ravagores under Lyl aren't the best combat monsters. I had a list a while ago designed for this match up since she was really popular in my area and it did really well (until i scenario'd myself - stupid grind! ). Anyway I like Vyros and depending on whoelse i took he'd be a consideration - it also helps that he isn't popular and a lot of people have relatively little idea what he is capable of.

If i had to pick today i'd take Rahn, Kaelyssa, and Ossyan. Not sure for Gencon though - but with possibly four of the colossals present i'd probably rather have Ossyan than Ravyn - although caster kill is still a pretty big trump of hers. Maybe Ravyn!

Ravyn handles single colossals pretty well and doubles are actually in the minority right now at 35pts (not suprising considering the investment). Also at 50pts she can take a Hyperion without losing firepower (in fact she gains some), so you can fight fire with disintigration beams. As much as I like Ossyan's anti-colossal tech, he's to incositant in other matches, so I'd have to be struggling to kill them every game before I'd consider him neccessary.

[rwould]

Rahn, Ravyn for first two. When Vyros2 is out I think he will be number 3 but am just in the process of replacing Kaelyssa as I suck with her. If I was to enter an event tomorrow it would be Vyros1.

Rahn for me if you have multiple casters is our strongest caster. I go non tier and he gets Sylys.

[Axelle]

Right now my current 3 tourney casters would be Rahn, Ossyan and pVyros. I've just got Kaelyssa a few weeks back and is planning to play her to get the hang of her playstyle. If ever, I'd replace anyone one of those w/ her when I get comfy with her.

Rahn - Nyss + Sentinels + SFA + HSBM - pretty solid for me as Sents and SFA helps me eliminate targets from objectives. Nyss for jamming stuff around, and HSBM for feat and board control. I kinda want to field the Banshee if possible, but I might have to drop one of the units for it.

Ossyan - MHSF + Nyss + SFA + HSBM + Invictors (have an alternate list that drops the vics for a heavy) - Gives me shooting options as well as melee flexibility.

pVyros - Sentinels + MHSF + SFA - just an average list for me, mainly playing on Attrition and Assassination.

Kaelyssa (? still for play testing)

[PG_Dawnlord Ed]

Hey I don't want to derail the thread to much, but I've never paid to much attention so I have no idea what the Triumvirate is or what the tactics around it are. Can someone shed a little light on it for me?

The Triumvirate (as generally understood by the forum community) is a 50 point Kaelyssa list that runs a Phoenix, a Banshee, and Discordia. I believe the term was coined by joelker, but I may be mistaken.

Generally, Kaelyssa lists often become a debate over which of those three jacks to include and in what numbers. They are widely considered to be the best jacks in faction and they all play very nicely with Kaelyssa. Since no one could ever agree on the "right" answer (because there isn't one), some of us started to say: "Why not ALL of them!?" And, thus, the Triumvirate was born!

My experience with it has left me with a mixed opinion. On the one hand, all three are so good that it's hard to cut one (which is why the list was designed in the first place) and each jack is plenty capable of anchoring a point in the battleline and greatly impacting the play in it's assigned area. On the other hand, even with 7 FOC and arcanists, three heavies can be a bit of a strain both on focus and just on points spent. And, as cool as they all are, sometimes I prefer 2x Stormfalls or the Pain Knight, etc.

Your mileage may vary. It's a fairly solid concept that is worth considering. However, I can't say that I'd strongly recommend it for Kaelyssa lists. Of course, I wouldn't try to talk you out of it either.

[tuttleboy]

Thanks for the help gang, now to get into list testing.

As a side note I just picked up an AFG from BTown. Anyone had any luck with one in an ultra competitive list?

[joelker41]

The Triumvirate (as generally understood by the forum community) is a 50 point Kaelyssa list that runs a Phoenix, a Banshee, and Discordia. I believe the term was coined by joelker, but I may be mistaken.

Generally, Kaelyssa lists often become a debate over which of those three jacks to include and in what numbers. They are widely considered to be the best jacks in faction and they all play very nicely with Kaelyssa. Since no one every could agree on the "right" answer (because there isn't one), some of us started to say: "Why not ALL of them!?" And, thus, the Triumvirate was born!

My experience with it has left me with a mixed opinion. On the one hand, all three are so good that it's hard to cut one (which is why the list was designed in the first place) and each jack is plenty capable of anchoring a point in the battleline and greatly impacting the play in it's assigned area. On the other hand, even with 7 FOC and arcanists, three heavies can be a bit of a strain both on focus and just on points spent. And, as cool as they all are, sometimes I prefer 2x Stormfalls or the Pain Knight, etc.

Your mileage may vary. It's a fairly solid concept that is worth considering. However, I can't say that I'd strongly recommend it for Kaelyssa lists. Of course, I wouldn't try to talk you out of it either.

Well like everything it's up to personal playstyle. I went 3-3 at Lock and Load with her in masters/hardcore/team tournament. Beat eHexy, Gorten, and eDenny but lost to eLylyth, pVlad, and weirdly enough pVyros. The latter 2 I can 100% blame the less than 3 hours of sleep I got 3 nights in a row doing emergency painting/basing.

I didn't do as well as Rahn (2-1) but I really love the list still. It is actually very focus efficient with giving 2 focus to the Banshee to knock down an opposing heavy and then power booster the other two to almost auto hit with boosted damage. Before eVyros I wholeheartedly believe that list was our best shot vs the standard eLylyth lists. Local tournaments it went 2-0 in L&L prep winning a tournament beating eVayl and Mohsar (Ossyan took down my other two opponents).

Is it the best list in Ret? Definitely not. But the list you are best with as an individual player with. I still can't figure out how bakaryu qualified with pVyros and Garryth. Hats off to him.

[rwould]

I still can't figure out how bakaryu qualified with pVyros and Garryth. Hats off to him.

I think it's a fine line between all our casters so it is finding the ones that suits how you play with the faction. Rahn stands a little bit over the others for me because he is quite polarising matchup and feat wise but the others I think it all comes down to the player.

[Panzeh]

I think it's a fine line between all our casters so it is finding the ones that suits how you play with the faction. Rahn stands a little bit over the others for me because he is quite polarising matchup and feat wise but the others I think it all comes down to the player.

I think we must be playing different Rahns, though my Rahn lists tend not to include other spellcasting units. Yes, Rahn can't do as much against a magic denial faction like Menoth or Circle, but it's only a terrible matchup if you run a lot of mittens with him. I think double phoenix at 50 gives you plenty of ways to make use of his focus that don't involve casting spells directly at certain models while leaving you plenty of points with which to do other stuff.

[Mastershake]

I think we must be playing different Rahns, though my Rahn lists tend not to include other spellcasting units. Yes, Rahn can't do as much against a magic denial faction like Menoth or Circle, but it's only a terrible matchup if you run a lot of mittens with him. I think double phoenix at 50 gives you plenty of ways to make use of his focus that don't involve casting spells directly at certain models while leaving you plenty of points with which to do other stuff.

Yeah, but if all Rahn is doing is upkeeping polarity shield, TKing the occaisional friendly model and giving jacks focus, then why isn't your caster Kaelyssa?

The point is less that he does nothing and more that he does nothing distinct. It's nice that he's got good offensive spells, but when you're feat does nothing but buff offensive spells it leaves the caster leaning on them to a degree that's makes them more vulnerable regardless of what your list is composed of. I'd rather have Kae do a consistant job in every match than have Rahn only half particapate because the opponent brought spell defense.

[joelker41]

Yeah, but if all Rahn is doing is upkeeping polarity shield, TKing the occaisional friendly model and giving jacks focus, then why isn't your caster Kaelyssa?

The point is less that he does nothing and more that he does nothing distinct. It's nice that he's got good offensive spells, but when you're feat does nothing but buff offensive spells it leaves the caster leaning on them to a degree that's makes them more vulnerable regardless of what your list is composed of. I'd rather have Kae do a consistant job in every match than have Rahn only half particapate because the opponent brought spell defense.

In casual play sure, but Force Field, Polarity Shield, TK alone can win you games. You bring Rahn AND Kaelyssa. She handles Cryx and zone scenarios, he handles Flags and high def casters for me.

[Mastershake]

In casual play sure, but Force Field, Polarity Shield, TK alone can win you games. You bring Rahn AND Kaelyssa. She handles Cryx and zone scenarios, he handles Flags and high def casters for me.

Games you can win with those three spells alone probably aren't games you needed a specific caster for.

[joelker41]

Games you can win with those three spells alone probably aren't games you needed a specific caster for.

At this point it feels like you you're just arguing to argue. Kaelyssa and Rahn support their armies differently. Rahn is a great caster for us for a variety of reasons. I love Kaelyssa and she is my favorite caster. Just saying 'play Kaelyssa' when people want to play Rahn isn't especially insightful or tournament-placement wise an accurate statement.

She's good. He's good. One will not simply replace the other.

[Mastershake]

At this point it feels like you you're just arguing to argue. Kaelyssa and Rahn support their armies differently. Rahn is a great caster for us for a variety of reasons. I love Kaelyssa and she is my favorite caster. Just saying 'play Kaelyssa' when people want to play Rahn isn't especially insightful or tournament-placement wise an accurate statement.

She's good. He's good. One will not simply replace the other.

Sorry if I can't fundamentally agree that Rahn losing half his spell list and his feat doesn't handicap the caster to an unacceptable degree for tournament play. I usually like to assume I'm on equal skill level to my opponents going into SR, so playing with a handicap isn't something I generally shoot for.

You could certainly just not play Rahn in those matchups and likely wont, but an opponent familiar with the matchup knows it, so he has more matchup contol than you do in that scenario. When it's a handful of casters ala Ravyn it's not as bad, when its two factions it can get pretty severe.

EDIT: TO clarify meaning a bit more, Rahn isn't bad by any means, but saying Rahn still works against magic defense is like saying Ravyn still works against all Stealth. While technically true in that she can still accomplish other things, if the playing field is even skill wise you're playing at a massive disparity. Everyone loves to harp on Ravyn's weaknesses, but Rahn often gets a pass and its always perplexing to wonder why.

[joelker41]

Sorry if I can't fundamentally agree that Rahn losing half his spell list and his feat doesn't handicap the caster to an unacceptable degree for tournament play. I usually like to assume I'm on equal skill level to my opponents going into SR, so playing with a handicap isn't something I generally shoot for.

You could certainly just not play Rahn in those matchups and likely wont, but an opponent familiar with the matchup knows it, so he has more matchup contol than you do in that scenario. When it's a handful of casters ala Ravyn it's not as bad, when its two factions it can get pretty severe.

Your reasoning is a little off. Two factions out of 9 is a reason not to play one caster? By that extension you shouldn't play Ravyn because of Legion, Cryx, and Gators. Ravyn has worse matchups than Rahn overall in my opinion. Not all of Circle or Menoth hates on magic either.

Rahn is weaker vs Magic Hating matchups, so bring a caster that balances that out. All of our casters have things they have issues with. Pointing to our historically best caster's somewhat obscure weaknesses is really short sighted and is a drastic oversimplification.

Competitive balance of a faction or a caster isn't measured by how one caster does, that why the multi-list format exists. If I am facing a Circle or Menoth opponent I will reach for a different caster. If you get locked into having to lay Rahn in the last round.d of a masters it isn't any different then Raven being stuck fighting eGorshade tiered where literally everything is stealth and has high enough ARM to laugh at Stormfalls and to great a numbers for Disco to take down.

This kind of hate on Rahn I would expect on Garryth or pVyros. Rahn is as we stand right now a top 3 caster in our faction. We can debate it, but the guy wins far more consistently than the majority of our casters.

[Mastershake]

This kind of hate on Rahn I would expect on Garryth or pVyros. Rahn is as we stand right now a top 3 caster in our faction. We can debate it, but the guy wins far more consistently than the majority of our casters.

It's not hate to acknowledge what someone doesn't do well and I never said he shouldn't be taken, merely responding to the previous statements of Rahn being WM jesus and able to win with half his spell list missing and no feat.

[KamenRider555]

Just getting back into the faction i know my top 2 are Ravyn and Ossyan. I am thinking of taking evyros...or garryth for hordes.

[DesertSpiral]

Why does the community feel Ossyan is inconsistent - is it that he has to present himself to feed his feat ?