So are we actually that OP?

[West996]

You know what is better than whining about ANY faction or ANY model/unit being OP? Using these forums for what they were meant for. Why can't we all just discuss tactics for beating cryx in general or specific cryx lists? I'm sure each of us (even veteran players) has lists they struggle against (I know I do!). It seems to me that it far more constructive to break everything down and help each other enjoy the game we all love to play rather than sit here and argue about whose dollies are better than whose. I love Warmachine/Hordes, and while I've certainly had my fair share of friends complain that Cryx is "OP", I have never once had it happen a second time after a great post game breakdown of how my list works, what to watch out for, lynch pin models ect ect.

In the end, we are picked this game to have fun, and these discussions are anathema to that goal.

While that is a noble suggestion, that isn't what the people crying OP are looking for. It has already been admitted that Cryx are beatable as long as you factor them into your list building process. So discussing lists and ways to beat them is valid and constructive, but apparently the very fact that we have to do that only proves Cryx as a faction is OP.

[The Horror]

While that is a noble suggestion, that isn't what the people crying OP are looking for. It has already been admitted that Cryx are beatable as long as you factor them into your list building process. So discussing lists and ways to beat them is valid and constructive, but apparently the very fact that we have to do that only proves Cryx as a faction is OP.

This is why I've come to just accept that people are going to whine about it and embraced the hate.

[QTN]

As a Khador player that does not play Kayazy Assassins or WGDS, I feel like pGaspy and pDenny have devastating feats! Also, BLT cursing seems OPed to me. I feel like you have to plan for that tech (also for pKreoss pop and drop).

I wish I didn't need to use Khador's best to counter it.

That being said, I believe in the saying...

To WIN without CHALLENGE is to TRIUMPH without GLORY.

Overall, I would argue that Cryx has some of the top feats in the game?

[W0lf]

Cryx, like legion are easy to play.

Thats pretty much it.

Also people in general prefer enemy troops getting buffed rather then theirs being debuffed. Oh and as legion/cryx pull that assasination stuff that can be annoying well. To the vast majority a game where both sides lose a load of models and fight attrition style seems more 'fair', for evidence see warhammer 8th and the 'lol role lotsa dice remove lotsa models' direction.

I love cryx and as a legion player they werr my first choice wm faction, however i went with khador in the end because its more challanging and rewarding.

[Scottl1]

Imo Cryx has very powerful Casters, Solos and UAs. I do not feel compared to khador and Menoth that they are by and large that much better in the infantry. I think Menoth has the best jacks of the wm crowd plus the no spells thing makes my black little heart tear up. lol I think there has been some good points made for both sides of the power grid but I ask to the member who said he felt cursing kayazy was op "How is that anymore "op" then you being able to toss IF on them making them def 19 in melee?" lol Aside from biles I in Cryx have almost no answer for that. lol

I also am of the opinion most players who cry OP are those who 1. Have limited exp vs Cryx. 2. Do not play Menoth or Legion 3. Don't like their models being tampered with since Cryx as a majority use debuffs not buffs.

I also have to laugh that folks always mention cryx best stuff but seem to have alsheimers about their own very good stuff.

[rocksalt]

Cryx, like legion are easy to play.

Thats pretty much it.

Also people in general prefer enemy troops getting buffed rather then theirs being debuffed. Oh and as legion/cryx pull that assasination stuff that can be annoying well. To the vast majority a game where both sides lose a load of models and fight attrition style seems more 'fair', for evidence see warhammer 8th and the 'lol role lotsa dice remove lotsa models' direction.

I love cryx and as a legion player they werr my first choice wm faction, however i went with khador in the end because its more challanging and rewarding.

The funny thing is I sold my Khador because I got bored with them. It didn't feel very challenging. High defense troop spam is really tough to play against with certain factions like Skorne especially in scenario play. Plus army list creation with Khador seems to me to be cookie cutter. Death star + assassins + warcaster + one heavy.

That being said, that is only my perspective. I don't have a big enough ego to think that my opinion actually represents the reality of the warmahordes meta. I wish others would realize that as well and put their egos in check and stop trying to ruin the game for others.

[Warlordtheft]

Doesn't really need it, since it has insane defence. I won't get into a DEF v ARM discussion, but I will point out that nobody gets a bonus to their to hit for charging.

Considering that many jacks have MATs of 6 or 7, DEF 13 is not that insurmountable, even at MAT 5 given the use of focus/fury or relying on multiple attacks. Its the combination of the low arm and smaller damage track that is at issue. This also makes our slayer chasis heavies vulnerable to POW 12 weapons. Even lower pow weapons and blast damage has a good chance of dinging it. Infantry are even more of problem should they get an alpha strike in on our jacks.

Try taking a pow12 weapon versus a cygnar jack. ARM 20 with arcane shield up and you're at dice minus 8. Where as a cryx jack is at ARM 17 or 19 if you have death ward up. Not only is the cryx jack taking more damage, it has fewer boxes of damage to take.

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

I don't think that Cryx is over powered. I do however think that Cryx is the most forgiving faction to play.

Lets face it, everyone makes mistakes in WM/H. And mistakes are the primary reason why games are lost/won.

If you take a cryx army and any other faction, and two perfect players who make no mistakes, I would not expect Cryx to perform any better than any other faction. But, If you take any two average, or even more so New players, the Cryx army will win a disperportionate percent of the time.

-Rick

[2LiveIs2Die]

You can't make a lot of mistakes when you have only one wound infantry and no guns.
Placing a model wrong in cryx gets about as bad as losing an arc node.

[Lamoron]

No mint-condition Juggernaut ever lost an arm because some random rifleman had nothing better to do and shot it. I listened to the people, I ran the Slayers, they arrived to a bunch of laughing Steelhead Riflemen chanting: No hands, no cookies!

[eKraye]

You can't make a lot of mistakes when you have only one wound infantry and no guns.
Placing a model wrong in cryx gets about as bad as losing an arc node.

I assume by which you mean... Not at all because they cost four points and you probably have at least one or two more? cryx is forgiving as hell as per my earlier post... I've lost games where I decimated an army only to be killed by one of the "weaker" casters while within 3 of a forest camping full focus with 3 damage boxes. It's forgiving as hell.

Unless a good cryx strategy is losing everything to bad placement in hopes to win on an unlikely whim with average dice and a super hard to play tricky faction that apparently only the best players that don't play in tournaments manage.

I do believe I've just contradicted myself. Ta

[SpiderBite]

a good cryx strategy is losing everything to bad placement in hopes to win on an unlikely whim with average dice

dudeman just stole my only strategem. crap. . . .

backup plan. . . . apply Terminus.

[Sanctjud]

dudeman just stole my only strategem. crap. . . .

backup plan. . . . apply Terminus.

Pretty Much.

Did you just kill my 30 Tough Bane Knights? Doomsayer to the Face!

[PG_ThatRickGuy]

You can't make a lot of mistakes when you have only one wound infantry and no guns.
Placing a model wrong in cryx gets about as bad as losing an arc node.

Not sure if I agree with you on that.

Placing a 1 wound Bane poorly is a problem, except when they are tough, with auto standup, and can be replaced by killing 1 other model... Just saying yo, it's pretty forgiving, especially with stealth and blast-resistent armor.

-Rick

[GreenJello]

Considering that many jacks have MATs of 6 or 7, DEF 13 is not that insurmountable, even at MAT 5 given the use of focus/fury or relying on multiple attacks.

It's damage mitigation, same as armor. The higher your DEF the less likely you are to get hit. DEF 13 is a pretty good number, probably the best in the game for a heavy jack/beast.

The fact that you're attempting to compare Cryx Arm vs Cygnar (or anybody else) ARM instead of talking about buffing DEF, or reducing MAT/RAT mean you either don't understand this well or are attempting to compare apples to oranges. Look at what happens to that slayer when you Crippling Grasp the opposing infantry/jack/beast. Suddenly no charge, and -2 to MAT, and that Jack's pretty well unkillable.

[Caanos]

It's damage mitigation, same as armor. The higher your DEF the less likely you are to get hit. DEF 13 is a pretty good number, probably the best in the game for a heavy jack/beast.

Circle and Legion would like a word with you with their DEF 14 heavies. One less armor except for the Stalker and Pureblood for Circle, but beasts are more survivable.

[Aggy]

Good thing PP isn't listening to the "Cryx is OP and needs to be nerfed" crowd.

[Baenre]

I assume by which you mean... Not at all because they cost four points and you probably have at least one or two more? cryx is forgiving as hell as per my earlier post... I've lost games where I decimated an army only to be killed by one of the "weaker" casters while within 3 of a forest camping full focus with 3 damage boxes. It's forgiving as hell.

Unless a good cryx strategy is losing everything to bad placement in hopes to win on an unlikely whim with average dice and a super hard to play tricky faction that apparently only the best players that don't play in tournaments manage.

I do believe I've just contradicted myself. Ta

It only seems like that because most Cryx lists are designed so that even if they take a beat, which they should, the opponent still has to be prepared for those "out of nowhere" assassination runs. It's a lot like playing against Zaal or Mordikaar in some respects. You feel like you are winning because you see all of their casualties piling up but in reality you are just helping their strategy out. So you are either damned if you do or Damned if you don't and it's that fine line you have to dance to figure out where to hurt them the most.

Players wonder why Skorne is so good it's because many times they play like Cryx only using Fury vs Focus , which gives them a edge over Cryx.

[Sanctjud]

Good thing PP isn't listening to the "Cryx is OP and needs to be nerfed" crowd.

Apparently you missed the eGaspy 'balances' in the FAQ....................twice.
Ofc the Cryx Community just laughed and continued winning with eGaspy....wait.. this isn't helping the OP... damn.

[Darxyd]

Why is Cryx OP? Because:

"WHAT IS DEAD CAN NEVER DIE!" -Theon Greyjoy

[GreenJello]

Why is Cryx OP? Because:

"WHAT IS DEAD CAN NEVER DIE!" -Theon Greyjoy

LOL! It can definitely be de-animated, even if that requires chopping it into little itty bitty pieces, burning the pieces, and scattering them to the 4 winds.

[SpiderBite]

How does one kill that which has no life?

[Alzer]

What struck me when I played against Cryx (which was, I believe my first opponent) is the sheer difficulty of coping with their crazy speed and debuffs. Cryx has some abilities to throw out, mainly debuffs, but also the swath of "I kill your thing and make it mine" ability that other factions just don't have and it really catches people off guard. I know the first time I got hit by a Reaper/WSC combo and a Machine Wraith in the same game I absolutely flipped out. Having my Crusader stolen and watching my Repenter turned into a Bonejack in the same turn was an absolutely crushing feeling that other factions just can't match.

Unfortunately I haven't actually played against Cryx proper in at least a year I think. After having studied them a bit and started them myself, I'm getting ideas on how to counter them and only time will tell how I deal with them.

Is Cryx overpowered? Maybe. Looking at it from a Theorymachine void though, not sure I can really say. They do have the most abilities that pop out and get players that aren't expecting it though. I feel going from a fluff prospective though the army manages to confuse, overwhelm and torture opponents that aren't grizzled with experience. So that's something.

[ZombieWar]

fire?
10 chrs

[Aggy]

Apparently you missed the eGaspy 'balances' in the FAQ....................twice.
Ofc the Cryx Community just laughed and continued winning with eGaspy....wait.. this isn't helping the OP... damn.

Did eGaspy get a second nerf?

[ZombieWar]

Did eGaspy get a second nerf?

yus
10 chrs

[bouncymischa]

I am even willing to consider that because of some of the things unique to Cryx and how great our line up is and therefore our variety of strong lists we might have a little bit of an edge over certain factions.

I guess I get a little defensive because I don't think it is enough of an edge even if it does exist to warrant all the negative attention the faction gets.

I like being the bad guy and all but it is a little draining and disheartening sometimes when your wins are attributed to your OP'ed faction.

I do agree that it is unjust to attribute someone's wins solely to the faction that they choose to play.

On the other hand, I do have to admit that I find it somewhat annoying in these sorts of threads (I've seen the same argument crop up in the Legion forums) that the power/advantages of a faction are typically dismissed completely, with the argument that it is solely a player's skill that wins a tournament, and not any other factor.

With that argument, then, is the choice of warcaster/warlock irrelevant? The internal synergy of their army, their list build, the strength of their models? If a player using a top-tier warcasters beats down a player playing a bottom-tier one, was it solely player skill that earned him the win?

I know some may argue that list design and model choice are part of being skilled at the game, and thus should be considered part of "player skill" -- but then, shouldn't faction choice be considered part of player skill as well? If I'm preparing for a tournament, I always find myself mulling over which faction of the ones I play I feel I have the best chance of winning with, considering the various options, advantages, and strategies each provides.

It can also be argued that "all factions are equal"... but the game doesn't exist in a state of perfect balance. With a game this complex, I'd argue that's impossible. There will always be factions that have a slight edge, and factions that don't have that edge.

So, in the end, I would argue that there are more powerful factions, and the advantages those factions have can play a role in determining victory. To argue otherwise is pretty much like arguing that warcaster choice in your lists is irrelevant.

On the other hand, it's not the only factor that determines who wins. There are dozens of factors that play a role in determining victory. The power level of one's faction is certainly part of it, but it's certainly not the only one.

[DavidRM]

My Satyxis have volunteered to be the whipping girls. Feel free to shout "Cryx is OP" before every stroke of the lash. Hell, say anything you like, just make with the whipping...

[sliganian]

How does one kill that which has no life?

Cancel their "World of Warcraft" subscription?

[Lanz]

Cancel their "World of Warcraft" subscription?

They make a trial account for that, now.

[West996]

I do agree that it is unjust to attribute someone's wins solely to the faction that they choose to play.

On the other hand, I do have to admit that I find it somewhat annoying in these sorts of threads (I've seen the same argument crop up in the Legion forums) that the power/advantages of a faction are typically dismissed completely, with the argument that it is solely a player's skill that wins a tournament, and not any other factor.

With that argument, then, is the choice of warcaster/warlock irrelevant? The internal synergy of their army, their list build, the strength of their models? If a player using a top-tier warcasters beats down a player playing a bottom-tier one, was it solely player skill that earned him the win?

I know some may argue that list design and model choice are part of being skilled at the game, and thus should be considered part of "player skill" -- but then, shouldn't faction choice be considered part of player skill as well? If I'm preparing for a tournament, I always find myself mulling over which faction of the ones I play I feel I have the best chance of winning with, considering the various options, advantages, and strategies each provides.

It can also be argued that "all factions are equal"... but the game doesn't exist in a state of perfect balance. With a game this complex, I'd argue that's impossible. There will always be factions that have a slight edge, and factions that don't have that edge.

So, in the end, I would argue that there are more powerful factions, and the advantages those factions have can play a role in determining victory. To argue otherwise is pretty much like arguing that warcaster choice in your lists is irrelevant.

On the other hand, it's not the only factor that determines who wins. There are dozens of factors that play a role in determining victory. The power level of one's faction is certainly part of it, but it's certainly not the only one.

I do think there are some underdog factions. Mercs, Minions, Cygnar, and then to a lesser extent Trollbloods.

I think all the other factions are balanced enough to be considered equal with in an acceptable margin of error. In a tournament environment I believe that the remaining factions have an equal chance of winning that is now dependent on their skill level and play style.

Cryx, Legion, Khador, Menoth, Skorne, they all have great faction choices and all can pull off some crazy stuff. And even as strong as we all know Legion currently is, Cryx still bears the the brunt of the OP accusations.

I know Cryx has a strong book full of great choices, but it is not like we can just throw whatever we want on the field and still win a National tournament. And on that level I don't think simply picking Cryx as a faction will compensate you any lack in player skill or even give you an edge. In fact, because there are so many Cryx players and because other factions plan to fight them, picking Cryx may even give you a disadvantage as you can count on being meta'ed against.

If I was going to use conventional wisdom and make a strategic faction choice to give me an edge at winning a tournament, I think I would go with Skorne.

[2LiveIs2Die]

My point was exactly what I said.
Place a bane poorly you lose a bane, place a heavy poorly you lose a heavy.

[GreenJello]

Did eGaspy get a second nerf?

Yes, but not recently:
1 Nerf: Medium or smaller bases, instead of any warrior model. This prevented Soul hunters from ripping people apart.
2 Nerf: Returned models are ghostly, instead of incorporeal, preventing anything returned from charging anything they wanted.

Relevant to the thread, Gaspy2 is the only model I'm aware of that has been nerfed twice, and one of a very select the few to get nerfed at all.

[Dragon2439]

This is why I've come to just accept that people are going to whine about it and embraced the hate.

Out of all of the wisdom(and there is a LOT) in this thread, i think this is what is just going to happen.

I originally picked Cryx for 2 reasons; undead and spell caster heavy. Then i saw eGaspy's model i was forever set.
Now, i dont just always use banes, eGaspy and DJ. My favorite caster is either scaverous or the witch coven, my preferred infantry are blood witches, and the only reason i spam DJ lately is because i finially painted and assembled him and want to use him. I typically prefer jacks to infantry, so my lists tend to include more heavies then they probably should. Bane thralls are my favorite troops, but because of their models, not their rules. I dont use them a lot because apparently they are OP. As for eGapsy, i have only ever used him a few times. As my original caster i quickly discovered he was much better then I thought and stopped using him.

A few weeks ago i had just finished playing a match against a much better opponent. He knew my rules and stats better then I did. While scaverous did get me a win (tremulous fired the final boosted shot and finished off his caster), i suspected that my victory was more because he let me win then anything else because he seemed more focused on destroying my forces then going for my caster. Anyway, as we were packing up i asked him "so what did i do wrong?", which i ask after most games where i face an equal or better player. Before he could even open his mouth a guy walking by, who had watched a bit of our game, said "choose Cryx as your faction"

Edit: thank you guys for all your input. It seems that even we are divided on the issue. I am not sure i like "cryx is easy", as this game seems fairly straight forward overall, just unforgiving.

[various]

Personally i really do not think that Cryx are OP, sure we have some things that we do very well, but we also have some things that we are very bad at. Claims of Cryx being OP are rare in my meta, mostly people complain about LoE being OP, but then we seem to have more LoE players per capita than anywhere else on the world! We hit hard, we are fast, we have good magic, good infantry, and high DEF on some models. Conversely our ARM is about as low as it gets, most of our infantry is MAT6 (at best, and this includes many of our Casters), our Jacks have the least amount of damage boxes of any Faction, and our Casters need most of their Focus for spell slinging which means having multiple Jacks is a problem. Overall i'd say that Cryx is fairly balanced: we have some serious strengths and some serious weaknesses. Also, it's not as if Cryx is an easy Faction to use, the learning curve can be very steep and until you get it getting bludgeoned into oblivion is highly likely. Most of the times that i've heard players claiming Cryx is OP is usually after they've just lost a game, they focus on what their Faction doesn't have rather than what it does have. Over my two decades of war-gaming i've played a lot of different systems, and i can honestly say that WM/H is one of the most balanced systems that i've ever come across: each Faction has its own strengths and weaknesses, some are just more obvious than the others. Usually, serious cries of OP are just an excuse to shift the blame for a loss away from the person and onto something that isn't their fault: basically it's just an excuse to cover up for poor play.

[Khaunshar]

I play Legion, Menoth, a bit of mercenaries (though not Rhulic, really) and Cryx. Both in competitive play and outside it, though we lack a truly extremely competitive (like, Neutralyze-level players) where I play, most people play regularly (multiple games per week) since MK2 release now, with all factions cropping up here and there.

I have won most of my tournaments with Menoth, since I play it as my primary faction, but I also lost most with them. In terms of Win-Loss ratio, however, nothing comes close to cryx for me.

I mainly play eSkarre, Coven, Scaverous and a bit of eDenny. And while I know how playing a pimped-out Harbinger list feels like, or Saeryns flying circus, Cryx is just so much EASIER to win with.

What do I mean with easy? I mean the incredible statlines of the casters, allowing many of them to remain a threat well into the lategame. The insane debuffs, crippling to a degree that you can just shut down multiple threats per round. And most importantly, the easy access to units and models that just perform above everything else by using combos that are easy to protect.
I win with Cryx because, in comparison to Menoth or even Legion, its damn hard to disrupt my combos, and I believe that is the essence of Cryx being more powerful/easy to win with. Your opponent cannot screw with your combos much.

Also, it really is a testament to a balance issue that almost identical eGaspy and eDenny lists have dominated the metagame for years now, even though everyone knows, plans and trains against them more than probably against anything else (eHaley may be close). These casters and their lists are just so damn hard to disrupt and deal with even if you know they are coming that I cannot honestly claim I consider Cryx to be on the same level of quality as most other factions.

The simple fact that you dont automatically win with them, that bad matchups exist, and that player skill is still far more important than the armylist does NOT prove that there isnt a balance issue there. It just proves that the balance is not so horribly screwed that it supercedes all other concerns.

IMO, in a game with plenty of powerful choices, Cryx remains the most reliably performing top dog army, and features the best casters of the entire game, with between 2 and up to 4 (egaspy, edenny, eskarre, scaverous) of the strongest warcasters in the entire game being often named in polls to that subject.

[West996]

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...se-of-italy%29

that thread might be interesting to some of you

[Baenre]

http://privateerpressforums.com/show...se-of-italy%29

that thread might be interesting to some of you

That data isn't all that surprising if you have good Skorne payers in your meta to reticent against. They have just as many top tier casters as people say cryx do, maybe more.

[Borka]

Yes, that just about sums it up.

[Borka]

Cryx is easy to deal with for Newer players. Every caster is good. Almost every unit is good. How can you go wrong? Even if you buy the models you think are cool, you will probably have a decent list. Cryx with experienced players are more dangerous and the game is balanced in that fact. Seasoned players know how to defeat Cryx. I see this at tournaments. Newbie Cryx players mop up against other noobs while they lose to seasoned vets. Bottom line Cryx, Everblight, and sometimes Circle get bad names because noobs have a harder time dealing with their tricks. I have this problem too. I rarely play vs Cryx, and my skill against them is poor. I realize they are not OP, but I have much to learn to counter this. Although, there are certain matches where I would be hard-pressed to win like Denny and Scenario play or against opponents who are not honest since they realize I am not familiar. Solution: learn to play Cryx and you will know how to defeat them.