Planning ahead with Terminus

[LichLordVexing]

If all goes well, I'll soon be in possession of my very first Terminus! YAY! I've looked over the Army List section but I see mostly 35pts or higher, and haven't noticed any 25pt lists with him, and I'm having a hell of a time trying to decide what to leave out for 25pts. I've never used Terminus before, just pGoreshade, pDenny, and pGaspy. From what I can gather across our forum is essentially just move him up the field letting Bane Thralls and/or McThralls take hits then charge everything and smash it to bits once he's in range.

This is probably better posted in the Army List section, but rather than ask about a build, I'd prefer to know which support models my fellow cryxians absolutely can't live without in a Termy list.

So far, I'm seeing WSC and Darragh as the #1 and #2 spots (in no particular order), and maybe Skarlock as #3 to slave Ravager. What else should be considered?

[Drzombieface]

I'm really not a fan of running Terminus in low point games. His low WJP and his desire for an insanely massive amount of infantry leaves him kind of lacking in 15-25 point games. In 35 he starts picking up, in 50 it just gets stupid.

But, if you must run him in 25 points, Mechanithralls, a Necrosurgeon, Skarlock, and the WSC are the way to go. I've even found running a Skarlock in some situations isn't worth the points at 25 with Termy. If you're going against an army with a decent amount of ranged attacks, though, in 25 points or lower, Terminus is kind of screwed, especially without The Revenant Crew acting as his bodyguard/meatshield.

If your opponent is going to run alot of infantry, Erebus is a must. Ravager + Erebus = Slaughterborn just got jealous.

If they're going jack heavy, DJ or a Seether would do you more good.

[Obeisance]

Well. I played Terminus paired with eDenny for a very long time.

Pre-SR2012, I played the following list. I haven't played him in this format yet. As you could probably tell, by the characters in his list.

Terminus
- Stalker
6 Banes+U/A
6 Bile Thralls
10 Mechanithralls
Necrosurgeon
Withershadow
Darragh
Madelyn
BLT
=35

I use a Stalker as my only jack, because it's just there to screen for Terminus. Consider him to be like a bodyguard, a charge blocker. Stealth makes it difficult to remove and if it dies, you get cover.

He wants Withershadow for several reasons. He camps hard, so he doesn't want to upkeep Malediction. He doesn't have a DEF debuff, so you need Admonia to strip Iron Flesh, Defender's Ward and whatever defensive buffs.

The lack of DEF debuffs, is also why he plays with Bile Thralls. If you can get them up the table, they kill infantry. They kill everything. But at 10/13, they don't last long. On feat turn, they can net him quite a few souls.

Madelyn is in the list to give Biles or Terminus a 3" bump forward. You can also put her in base contact with Terminus or Darragh to extend their CMD and thus the Tough and Beyond Death auras. Keep in mind she will have to take Abomination near Terminus, but her abilities still function when she is broken.

Darragh is vital. He doesn't go with any caster before Terminus. Beyond Death grants -2 to enemy damage rolls within his CMD. This bumps his effective non-feat camp from a base of 24, to 26 against living enemy models. Death Ride is also good for changing your facing and extending threat ranges. Let's say someone uses Telekinesis and turns Terminus backwards so he can't charge whatever target. Death Ride, he can now.

Banelord Tartaurs is very much bad synergy with Terminus. Terminus wants every single soul he can get his big, bony claws on. If BLT spawns more Banes, those models don't produce souls. I included him because I wanted the +2 MAT and +2" charge range for the Banes. Again, to get around his lack of DEF debuff. When it comes to Death Toll, you have to balance it up. Do I want the souls, or can I do more damage with spawned Banes? Just depends on the situation.

Mechanithralls (also Surgeon I guess) and Bane Thralls are in there because they're cheap, effective infantry. Stealth models make good Sacrificial Pawn targets. Models that can come back into play, are also good for that role. Both can also do decent damage to jacks.

From there, there is three things to consider:

a) There are no other targets for heavies. If you were to bump it up to say, 50pts, you'd want to take more heavies. And only scary ones that you don't have to give focus to. Deathjack is the biggest threat. You just have to draw attention away from Terminus.

b) Terminus himself does not want charge heavies. If you charge a heavy, you'll spend focus trying to kill it. If you're spending focus trying to kill it, you're not camping. If you're at the enemy's battle line and you're not camping hard, it's game over. Which brings me back to Mechanithralls and Bane Thralls. Mechs combo at P+S 15. Banes are P+S 11 weapon masters. You also have access to Dark Shroud from Tartarus and Malediction for an extra -4 ARM. Consequently, Terminus builds aren't great against jack spam.

c) As I've said before, Terminus doesn't have a DEF debuff. This means his lists suffer against high DEF infantry spam. Especially anything with Winterguard and Iron Flesh. It's all about Admonia to strip and Biles to Purge.

As for characters..

Darragh is high priority.
Madelyn is high priority.
Withershadow is medium to high priority pending matchups.
BLT is bad synergy and is a medium priority.
Deathjack is a medium priority at 50pts.

I'd also include a Skarlock at 50pts.

[Drzombieface]

He doesn't have a DEF debuff

Malediction? -2 DEF/ARM to enemy models within 2". Sounds like a DEF debuff to me.

Terminus
- Stalker
6 Banes+U/A
6 Bile Thralls
10 Mechanithralls
Necrosurgeon
Withershadow
Darragh
Madelyn
BLT
=35

I rarely take BLT. Points spent on BLT is souls Terminus doesn't get, and while getting more BT's is great and all, Terminus is greedy, and he needs to be. I'll bring him in 50 and higher, just because he's actually needed with more models on the board. I usually drop him in 35 in favor of maxing out the BT's and adding a Brute Thrall.

As for dealing with high DEF targets, this is the reason I take Gorman di Wulfe over Madelyn. -4 DEF from Black Oil is rediculous. Malediction + Black Oil is -6. Even Bile Thralls' sprays can hit it now.


For spending his WJP, I'd rather have a Deathripper or Nightwretch. Throwing around Annihilations through an arc- node post- Feat can keep Terminus gorged on souls. Keep it back as a lane- blocker early on, rush it into position mid- late game and get stuff done. Plus, with a Nightwretch, there's the potential to get 1, 2, 3, maybe even 4 extra souls with Blaster on Terminus' feat turn.


Other than these things, my list is exactly the same. Madelyn's 3" move can matter some times, but I've just never had her outperform Gorman. Ever. Acid Bombs killing off support models or cutting through infantry, Rust Bombs setting up jacks for the kill, Black Oil for setting up an assassination run. Too good to pass up. I've even had Gorman alone hand 4 souls to Terminus on my feat turn with one Acid Bomb, and instead of having 6 bonus focus, I got 10, for a next turn total of 16 focus. That's a huge jump. Terminus doesn't really offer anything for a Stalker, at least from what I've gotten the few times I've actually tried one with Termy. He's a focus hog, and he likes to get the job done himself. Spending focus on a Stalker just doesn't fit well with him, and leaving a Stalker sitting behind is a waste of its potential. If you want something that's hard to remove from the board, is cheap, and can get in and out of the way, get a Helldiver. When you don't want it targeted, put it in the ground. When it needs to block an open lane, pop it up and have it sit its fat little behind in the way.

[Scottl1]

Ok I disagree on a few points with Ob.
!. Stealth doesn't make a good sac pawn since now opponents just drift at Terminus which he cannot sac pawn which can get him on fire since they auto miss. Revenant crew, Mcthralls, Necrosurgeon(who can also sac pawn to stitch or McThralls) make good sac pawns not stealth units.

A. I agree Dj is good at 50 to draw attention away BUT is still a huge chunk of points(though it's funny when he casts annihilation)

B. Again I disagree. How is a list sporting Mcthralls and Banes bad vs def 10-12 jacks? Also if your close enough for Malediction you're in MELEE. lol Who cares if a pow 17 reckoner hitting a def 14 arm 24+ Terminus? Hell just charge use base attacks then have the rest swarm in. Now I have mat 7 pow 17 mcthralls hitting a wounded jack. Now its dead and you're still camping. I have never had a problem with Terminus vs Menoth jack lists. The problem is vs Circle or Legion(Angel heavy) is more of an issue due to def 14+. Though they have a hard time hurting him if darragh is alive. lol

C. Exactly what is that high def infantry doing to Terminus?? Pow 12s and pow 10s aren't hurting an arm 24+ Terminus. Who the hell cares if if I can't hurt them. I jam them and then fly over. Problem solved.

Darragh is a must since he moves T and buffs armor or if desperate can screen.
Madelyn is a must due to the movement and extending Darragh's command.
Withershadow is a must to keep debuffs off Terminus and upkeeping.
BLT is NOT bad synergy since he does not have to make banes and if you choose to make banes that also denies your opponent souls and corpses vs loe pot or Menoth etc. Plus Mat 10 Banes are pretty sweet(Maledicition+ Curse).
DJ is a preference piece for 50 but I'm using him less and less with Terminus since I also use eskarre a lot.
I like saxon as well for the pathfinder since banes AND mcthralls don't come with it and my other list has knights, raiders and blood witches who don't need the pathfinder.

Skarlock IMO is pretty useless since he can only cast annihilation or hellfire which then cause him to then die. He cannot cast Malediction since it is a self.

[Obeisance]

Malediction doesn't count as a DEF debuff, because it's only within 2" of Terminus. I mean like, debuff upkeeps. Something you can apply to a unit, then wreck it with your infantry.

Scott - I've played a good 30+ games with Terminus including around 3-4 tournaments. Disagree all you want.

Terminus doesn't care about AOE drifting that isn't Blind. He's ARM 24 99% of the time. My opponents are welcome to drift AOE's over my Bane Thralls. Most AOE's are POW 6-7. Bane Thralls are ARM 15 with Tough. You also strategically place them so that if he's hit by an AOE 3 it misses most of them.

If you can't kill high DEF infantry, you can't get souls. If you can't get souls, you're going to get killed by heavies. ARM 24 only goes so far. Especially if your opponent is decent enough to get you out of Darragh's CMD. Also, if anything knocks Terminus down it's instantly going to do him a whole lot more damage.

Let's take a random Khador army. Kayazi, Nyss, WGI, Behemoth, Spriggan. Whatever caster. Your infantry can't hit anything. A smart opponent will deny Terminus places to land and just charge him, knock him down, etc.

The whole point I guess I'm trying to make, is that you have to play Terminus safe. You can't just run him forward and expect to do well against an opponent that isn't an idiot.

[Drzombieface]

Malediction doesn't count as a DEF debuff, because it's only within 2" of Terminus. I mean like, debuff upkeeps. Something you can apply to a unit, then wreck it with your infantry.

If it lowers their DEF, it's a DEF debuff. And upkeep is a different story.

Though, to be honest, he doesn't need a DEF debuff upkeep. Giving something -6 DEF for a turn should be plenty.

What's that, Caine? I hit you on 4's now? Well would ya look at dat.



And if you're in desperate need of debuffs out the wahoo, Terminus isn't the caster for you. Play Deneghra or whatever the meta is these days.

[Scottl1]

Malediction doesn't count as a DEF debuff, because it's only within 2" of Terminus. I mean like, debuff upkeeps. Something you can apply to a unit, then wreck it with your infantry.

Scott - I've played a good 30+ games with Terminus including around 3-4 tournaments. Disagree all you want.

Terminus doesn't care about AOE drifting that isn't Blind. He's ARM 24 99% of the time. My opponents are welcome to drift AOE's over my Bane Thralls. Most AOE's are POW 6-7. Bane Thralls are ARM 15 with Tough. You also strategically place them so that if he's hit by an AOE 3 it misses most of them.

If you can't kill high DEF infantry, you can't get souls. If you can't get souls, you're going to get killed by heavies. ARM 24 only goes so far. Especially if your opponent is decent enough to get you out of Darragh's CMD. Also, if anything knocks Terminus down it's instantly going to do him a whole lot more damage.

Let's take a random Khador army. Kayazi, Nyss, WGI, Behemoth, Spriggan. Whatever caster. Your infantry can't hit anything. A smart opponent will deny Terminus places to land and just charge him, knock him down, etc.

The whole point I guess I'm trying to make, is that you have to play Terminus safe. You can't just run him forward and expect to do well against an opponent that isn't an idiot.

Number of games doesn't mean you're right. lol I've played him since his release in mark 1. Does that add credit to my pov? lol

He does care about fire since then it ignores focus. You're then taking extra possible damage which can make a difference if you're arm 24.

Also sac pawn doesn't move the aoe just the damage and effect so strategery away. lol

Um my mat 10 banes and mat 7 McThralls have no issue hitting high def especially since I have the hag and WSC debuffing that iron flesh. Idk about wgi pow 10 guns. If they knock him down again with all the infantry they can't get a heavy close enough. lol Thats what the brutes and correctly placed tough infantry is for.

Denying my landing spot? Same goes for me denying tramples and charges. lol

The whole point I'm making is IF I lose with Terminus it's because I failed my assassination run. I have died twice before and that was due to psevvy's feat leaving me at arm 18. So you using the excuse that an opponent must be an idiot is false. My dice not rolling a 5 on 3 dice is the culprit not the opponents intelligence. I don't need to be "safe" if I'm doing what I'm supposed to.

[Drzombieface]

I have died twice before and that was due to psevvy's feat leaving me at arm 18.

Missing your window of 3 full turns (1. feat turn, 2. opponent's turn [he can't get rid of your souls with his feat] 3. Your next turn) with stupid high ARM is a pretty big mistake, just to point that out.

Even if pSevvy feats, you'll still get the focus from the souls. You won't, however, get your 6 normal focus.* (upon thinking about this, I'm not quite sure this is correct. I'll have to consult Prime.)

On his turn following your feat turn, the only thing he can do is set you on fire with a critical hit from Immolation. That's about it. You then take fire damage, Cull Soul converts your souls into focus, and then you proceed with beating the old man's face in until he's a puddle of mush.

[2LiveIs2Die]

I also use terminus as a mat buff against minimal numbers of infantry.

[Scottl1]

Missing your window of 3 full turns (1. feat turn, 2. opponent's turn [he can't get rid of your souls with his feat] 3. Your next turn) with stupid high ARM is a pretty big mistake, just to point that out.

Even if pSevvy feats, you'll still get the focus from the souls. You won't, however, get your 6 normal focus.

You are correct that is a pretty large mistake. I got hung up with the 2 huge forests in the middle of the board and errants. lol Plus can't get souls though from self sac or jacks. lol Couldn't see the choir etc due to the forests. lol Lesson learned though.

[Drzombieface]

I also use terminus as a mat buff against minimal numbers of infantry.

If only he could cast Ravager on himself...


Ah, wishful thinking...

You are correct that is a pretty large mistake. I got hung up with the 2 huge forests in the middle of the board and errants. lol Plus can't get souls though from self sac or jacks. lol Couldn't see the choir etc due to the forests. lol Lesson learned though.

Errants tend to put a hitch into anyone's plans. The only consistent way we have to kill them is copious amounts of Bile Thralls or Bloodgorgers. Even then, that's assuming they can get up the board without getting shot to pieces.

At that point, the best option would be to do what Terminus does best. Throw his army away to get to the enemy caster.

[2LiveIs2Die]

That way you kill 3 def 17 troops with only 4 focus!

[Drzombieface]

That way you kill 3 def 17 troops with only 4 focus!

If Ravager could target Terminus:

Upkeep Malediction for free via WSC.
Skarlock casts Ravager for free.

Terminus is effectively MAT 9/ P+S 18 with Berserk. For 0 focus.


Oh, now I see why they didn't want that happening.



But wait, eButcher can spin in a circle and attack everything around him all at once, with MAT 9/ P+S 19 weapon master attacks. And PP didn't let Ravager target Termy why, exactly?

[2LiveIs2Die]

`start with you saying casting it on himself and factor an 8 to hit mat 9 vs 17.

[Drzombieface]

`start with you saying casting it on himself and factor an 8 to hit mat 9 vs 17.

Gorman and Black Oil.


Or Bile Thralls auto- hitting because lolbalance?whatbalance.

Chances are those DEF 17 infantry aren't going to do much more than turn into puddles of goop after Bile Thralls get their shot at them.

I bring them for a reason. There's a method to my madness, somewhere.

[jonconcarne]

Methinks you should read Ravager again Zombieface. "Target model in this model's battlegroup..." Terminus is in his own battlegroup... he can be targetted by Ravager... has your head exploded yet?

[Lamoron]

A Skarlock is a fantastic addition to a Terminus list as it gives him the opportunity to go reap souls without spending his Focus, because yes Ravager can be used on Terminus. You should really listen to Obei because more or less everything he's said here is gold, though I disagree with him on using Mechanithralls as I think they weaken a Terminus list.

I have a lot of posts on Terminus you can read and make up your mind on www.wmdm2011.blogspot.com and www.theoverseer.dk (new site).

[Scottl1]

A Skarlock is a fantastic addition to a Terminus list as it gives him the opportunity to go reap souls without spending his Focus, because yes Ravager can be used on Terminus. You should really listen to Obei because more or less everything he's said here is gold, though I disagree with him on using Mechanithralls as I think they weaken a Terminus list.

I have a lot of posts on Terminus you can read and make up your mind on www.wmdm2011.blogspot.com and www.theoverseer.dk (new site).

The skarlock then is a situational piece if you're playing vs a lot of infantry preferably without tough. So he kills most likely at best 3. Doesn't seem as helpful as Saxon tossing pathfinder on a unit to me.

There will always be terrain. There will not always be tons of infantry.

[deademon]

Methinks you should read Ravager again Zombieface. "Target model in this model's battlegroup..." Terminus is in his own battlegroup... he can be targetted by Ravager... has your head exploded yet?

I don't have the book in front ofe, but if both are upkeeps then only one can be on him at a time, I think that's where ppl are going with that

[Obeisance]

Ravager isn't an upkeep.

[2LiveIs2Die]

Ravager is not an upkeep. It works well to use skarlock for ravager on him or a reaper.
Also my point was maeldiction is not a good answer to high def infantry. Biles and bloats are both good.
Also I love his theme, so much. Running pirates 16" turn one like a boss.

[Drakor]

There are very few guns in the game termi cares about and the ones he does can be sac-pwned so its very rare he'll get shot at. Ive been playing him a lot lately and things that I would put high on the must have list are:

Withershadow Combine, Free upkeep and upkeep removal are really good, Madelyn is really excellent and I've never regretted having her in a list, Biles are excellent for feat turn, but are a pretty poor answer for kayzay or WGI Deathstar as I just can't see them out-threating either against a competent player.
Darragh is very nice in general and makes termi very hard to kill against hordes. Saxon makes it into his lists to help banes through forests.

Flavour with banes and a jack of your choosing, I like seethers to charge in and grab and smash a heavy over to some banes or the WSC, they also trample nyss and kayzay pretty well at mat 8.

[SpiderBite]

Thank you all for pointing out that Ravager is not an upkeep. . . .
I feel retarded for thinking it was. . . and my local will hate Termy with Ravager charging into infantry now.

to slightly de-rail. . .
I have yet to play a reinforcement scenario with Mr.T out of the 18(ish) games I have had so far.
What reinforcements have been working for y'all?

at the moment I'm switching between baneKnights and dual P.Wraiths with a Stalker, but have no actual experience using them as reinforcements for Termy.

[Obeisance]

Aw. Another person sigged me.

[Lamoron]

The skarlock then is a situational piece if you're playing vs a lot of infantry preferably without tough. So he kills most likely at best 3. Doesn't seem as helpful as Saxon tossing pathfinder on a unit to me.

There will always be terrain. There will not always be tons of infantry.

The Skarlock is not a situational piece, it's a core model of the list. I tried games without it and the freedom and choice it brings to the table is hard to go without. I'll give you an example from an actual game to illustrate.

Stormclad with Stormblades in front of it to protect against Erebus & Snapjaw. Terminus gets Puppet Master and Ravager, and charges a Stormblade while making sure he's within range of the Stormclad with his sword, and within ½" of a second Stormblade. He hit's and kills the charge target and then takes his Berserk attack on the next Stormblade, and the next, and the next until only the ½" reach Stormblade remains and then hits the Stormclad doing significant damage. He hit's and kills the last Stormblade with his hand and uses Ravager to get a second sword attack on the Stormclad. Now Terminus has cleaned out the shield, gained 4-5 souls (can't remember), and hit the Stormclad twice using exactly 0 Focus. He has also engaged the Stomclad which allows a couple of Bane Thralls to charge in and finish the job easily due to Malediction.

Without the Skarlock he could only do this if it was his feat turn. Without the Skarlock he would lower his armor to do it even on feat turn. Without the Skarlock he becomes vulnerable to a series of really bad rolls since every Focus spent needs to gain him more than one soul if he's going on the front line, and the list continues. The Skarlock is not a situational model it's a Terminus core model.

[Lamoron]

Thank you all for pointing out that Ravager is not an upkeep. . . .
I feel retarded for thinking it was. . . and my local will hate Termy with Ravager charging into infantry now.

to slightly de-rail. . .
I have yet to play a reinforcement scenario with Mr.T out of the 18(ish) games I have had so far.
What reinforcements have been working for y'all?

at the moment I'm switching between baneKnights and dual P.Wraiths with a Stalker, but have no actual experience using them as reinforcements for Termy.

I found Ghost Raiders to work well. They're flankers so they rarely if ever steal souls from Terminus. If an opponent sends infantry to deal with them you can spawn a Ghost Army, and if he sends a heavy to deal with them it's one less threat to Terminus. They also do very well because they can run straight through most things (careful with magic weapon free strikes) and put some real pressure on objectives and zones.

[Scottl1]

The Skarlock is not a situational piece, it's a core model of the list. I tried games without it and the freedom and choice it brings to the table is hard to go without. I'll give you an example from an actual game to illustrate.

Stormclad with Stormblades in front of it to protect against Erebus & Snapjaw. Terminus gets Puppet Master and Ravager, and charges a Stormblade while making sure he's within range of the Stormclad with his sword, and within ½" of a second Stormblade. He hit's and kills the charge target and then takes his Berserk attack on the next Stormblade, and the next, and the next until only the ½" reach Stormblade remains and then hits the Stormclad doing significant damage. He hit's and kills the last Stormblade with his hand and uses Ravager to get a second sword attack on the Stormclad. Now Terminus has cleaned out the shield, gained 4-5 souls (can't remember), and hit the Stormclad twice using exactly 0 Focus. He has also engaged the Stomclad which allows a couple of Bane Thralls to charge in and finish the job easily due to Malediction.

Without the Skarlock he could only do this if it was his feat turn. Without the Skarlock he would lower his armor to do it even on feat turn. Without the Skarlock he becomes vulnerable to a series of really bad rolls since every Focus spent needs to gain him more than one soul if he's going on the front line, and the list continues. The Skarlock is not a situational model it's a Terminus core model.

A reason I did not care as much for the skarlock is the obscene amount of errants, high beast, models with tough etc in my meta where that really isn't as helpful. It's why I said it's situational. In your meta it might be common but in mine it may be an option but in more cases then not it does not do more then adding saxon for those 2 points. I saw your Terminus list and its quite different with WE&SJ etc. Typically people don't run as many heavies as you.

[Scottl1]

I found Ghost Raiders to work well. They're flankers so they rarely if ever steal souls from Terminus. If an opponent sends infantry to deal with them you can spawn a Ghost Army, and if he sends a heavy to deal with them it's one less threat to Terminus. They also do very well because they can run straight through most things (careful with magic weapon free strikes) and put some real pressure on objectives and zones.

How do they not steal souls? Blackbanes ability to make more steals souls. Why not just use Nyss hunters, blood witches+hag, Soul hunters(yes they steal souls but they could be incorporeal to carve deep into enemies), or something?

[Drakor]

How do they not steal souls? Blackbanes ability to make more steals souls. Why not just use Nyss hunters, blood witches+hag, Soul hunters(yes they steal souls but they could be incorporeal to carve deep into enemies), or something?

Its very rare for the entire opponents army to be within 12" of termi and blackbanes normally quickly outstrip the rest of the termi brick, generally running turn 1 & often 2 to get to key backfield support models. Also I'm failing to see why you can't just take saxon and a skarlock?

[Ulli]

The Skarlock is not a situational piece, it's a core model of the list. I tried games without it and the freedom and choice it brings to the table is hard to go without. I'll give you an example from an actual game to illustrate.

...

The Skarlock is not a situational model it's a Terminus core model.

That's all true. But what would you think should a 35-point-list with Terminus look like?
With Darragh, WSC, Corbeau, Sexy Orric and the Skarlock you have a big bunch of support-models in your army, which left you with few points for models which do the fighting.

[Lamoron]

A reason I did not care as much for the skarlock is the obscene amount of errants, high beast, models with tough etc in my meta where that really isn't as helpful. It's why I said it's situational. In your meta it might be common but in mine it may be an option but in more cases then not it does not do more then adding saxon for those 2 points. I saw your Terminus list and its quite different with WE&SJ etc. Typically people don't run as many heavies as you.

Well among the top Cryx players at the ETC this year there were several other Terminus lists that looked like mine, except for 5-10 points spent differently (one player actually came and thanked me for letting him "borrow" my list). I've been up against Menoth a fair amount of times and Errants are handled by other aspects of the list (mainly Bile Thralls), but it's true that the Skarlock doesn't help much with them, but unless you're in a three person meta with just Menoth, the Skarlock will see plenty of use. Against Trollbloods or other predominantly Tough armies Ravager is a much greater boon than normally, because every time he makes a tough roll you have to buy another attack like you normally would but now you have two more Focus, and every time he fails a tough check you save a focus on buying another attack.

33% chance of having to what you would have anyway.
66% chance of getting a free attack.

I always bring Saxon Orrik as well, so comparing the two isn't really useful because they both have to be there. You should compare him to a Warwitch Siren and trust me it's been hard choosing between the two, but after about twenty games with each I ended up with the Skarlock because he provides more options in this case... yes more options that a Warwitch Siren.

[Lamoron]

That's all true. But what would you think should a 35-point-list with Terminus look like?
With Darragh, WSC, Corbeau, Sexy Orric and the Skarlock you have a big bunch of support-models in your army, which left you with few points for models which do the fighting.

There are exactly two models in a Terminus list that matters: Terminus and Admonia. Madelyn, Darragh, and Tremulus are great models but you can win without them, and everything else has just two jobs: kill heavies and make room for Terminus' endgame. I haven't played a lot of 35 points but I think it would be something like this.

Lich Lord Terminus
- Cankerworm
Bane Thralls (Leader and 9 Grunts)
- Bane Thrall Officer & Standard
Bile Thralls (Leader and 5 Grunts)
The Withershadow Combine
Bane Lord Tartarus
Darragh Wrathe
Machine Wraith
Saxon Orrik
Skarlock Thrall

I actually think that the smaller the game becomes the more important the Skarlock becomes, because there will be less available souls, and lists are more vulnerable to tricks because creating a solid defense is harder. That's also why I included Darragh Wrathe instead of Madelyn + something because at 35 I'd expect something to make it through my lines, and I expect Terminus to take a more active part in the game than usual. I did take a tournament with a Leviathan and minimum Bane Thralls about a year ago, and the Skarlock either did nothing or won me the game: I'll pay two points for something that wins me every third game.

[Lamoron]

Its very rare for the entire opponents army to be within 12" of termi and blackbanes normally quickly outstrip the rest of the termi brick, generally running turn 1 & often 2 to get to key backfield support models. Also I'm failing to see why you can't just take saxon and a skarlock?

Exactly, here's an image from the ETC where you can see Blackbane's Ghost Raiders doing what I talked about.



In this case Terminus pulled to the left flank and the Ghost Raiders ran to the objective, giving my opponent the unpleasant choice between losing on scenario or losing because Terminus got a hold of his reinforcements. He chose to go for Terminus instead which was a long shot and failed, but he had to do it because the Ghost Raiders forced his hand.

If I see them being in a position to steal souls I can decide if an additional armor/focus is worth more than an additional Ghost Raider, but so far I've never had to make that choice. There's also the option of going kamikaze with Blackbane to simply lose the ability to steal souls, and most opponents won't think twice about killing him if you give them the option, and to late realize that now all the free strikes you threaten with the rest of them stops making raiders and start making souls.

[Lamoron]

How do they not steal souls? Blackbanes ability to make more steals souls. Why not just use Nyss hunters, blood witches+hag, Soul hunters(yes they steal souls but they could be incorporeal to carve deep into enemies), or something?

I've been mulling over the reinforcements options for hours on end, and this is what I came up with for Terminus (other casters have other options).

Nyss Hunters need help handling things on the flank, they need some way of negating morale issues because without that they risk failing important rolls and I've seen it happen so many times. Nyss Hunters also need help hitting things in melee, and since they don't have reach it's hard getting enough of them in contact with something. If they were fearless I'd say go for it, but not being able to move Terminus over to them is a massive issue.

Blood Witches simply cannot handle heavies, and their survivability is horrible except for that one turn, and reinforcements need to survive two turns. They need to survive the turn they come on where they usually won't be doing much, and they need to be able to hold an objective against overwhelming odds. They need to be able to handle or ignore both infantry and heavies alike, and Bloodwitches aren't up for it. They also don't ignore terrain which is a huge issue with reinforcements.

Soul Hunters require Darragh Wrathe to be out on their flank to be any good, and with Terminus his place is center line moving the brick or defending Terminus. He's a huge target already and letting my reinforcements rely on him is a bad idea. Soul Hunters also have trouble surviving any dedicated effort and cannot reliably kill or ignore heavies.

The only options I would consider are Blackbanes (min) + Sirens, Blackbane's (max) + Machine Wraith, and Satyxis Raiders (min + UA + Captain) + Machine Wraith, and they still wreck your game if they come within abomination range of Terminus and fail. Blackbane's Ghost Raiders are the ultimate reinforcements for Terminus, but other casters have entirely different options.

[Scottl1]

I guess I'll just have to disagree. The blackbanes's pitiful pow and mat make it so I can't rely on them. I'd rather just run them with pskarre. As far as the skarlock I guess he has a place in at 50 but at 35 I have no room for him personally.

I also think the knock on the nyss is the same problem the pirates will have. 1=2 lower mat and pow 10? Doesn't seem that better in my exp. I have watched them flail for 2 turns trying to hit def 14 and never hit once far too often. Plus the nyss can shoot things like the choir without worrying about being engaged in melee.

Also why do the rein have to handle heavies when you have Terminus, BLT, banes, we&sj, etc?

[Sanctjud]

@Scottl1: It's not about the pitful po and mat though... it's a Flanking unit that annoys the hell out of the opponent that Terminus doesn't have to care about.

I use Ghost Raiders in my '52 Bane' list as well...they are generally on the flanks due to being able to bypass terrain and are very quick to do so. Some rare times they get front line duty... only cause they outrun the 30 bane knights in the center

[Lamoron]

I guess I'll just have to disagree.

You're holding the head and trying to hammer in nails with the shaft of the hammer there. Instead of writing it all again here's what I wrote about them: Ghost Raiders.

[Drzombieface]

Methinks you should read Ravager again Zombieface. "Target model in this model's battlegroup..." Terminus is in his own battlegroup... he can be targetted by Ravager... has your head exploded yet?

Methinks I need to stop assuming PP would limit something in Cryx. Mind was indeed blown. Whenever I see battlegroup, I assume Warjack is just in there by default. NO LONGER.


However, unless you have a Skarlock, you're only casting it on your feat turn if targeting Terminus. It's still getting cast on a jack more often.


Now I have to cast it on the Skarlock and have it kill some squishy infantry. You've created a monster.

[Iixil]

i was wondering what tactic termy might use against Edenny with a min unit of blood witches and blies to sweep his thralls or use DJ/arc to blast out two hell mouths feat and pursuit termy next round... so when he gets to move again he cant get to denny (or DJ) since she/it can just move away due to pursuit and immune to free strike / go incorp to even avoid dragon fire... is there really much hope since the witches can RFP eachother or be used as hellmouth targets if she dosent MFD the thralls? and DJ + knights rock termy who gets no or very few souls? also biles with madelyn and wrathe her bile wipe termys biles aswell since feat also sets them up? i mean hell mouth could even pull heavies out of DJs charge lane.

id assume the 50 pt would look like this or some kind of variation... but the tactics would be somewhat the same
Wraith Witch Deneghra-6
Deathripper4
Deathripper4
Deathjack12
Bane Knights (Leader and 9 Grunts)10
Bile Thralls (Leader and 5 Grunts)5
Satyxis Blood Witches (Leader and 5 Grunts)4
Satyxis Blood Hag2
The Withershadow Combine5
Bane Lord Tartarus4
Darragh Wrathe4
Madelyn Corbeau, Ordic Courtesan 2

ideas?