Planning ahead with Terminus

[Scottl1]

You're holding the head and trying to hammer in nails with the shaft of the hammer there. Instead of writing it all again here's what I wrote about them: Ghost Raiders.

Ok that article still doesn't say why they should be in Terminus over pSkarre, pDenny or any list that will help with their mat issues nor does it add something that Nyss, etc can do just as well or better. Great they're incorporeal, light things on fire(if the hit), etc. That's all in the book.

[Scottl1]

@Scottl1: It's not about the pitful po and mat though... it's a Flanking unit that annoys the hell out of the opponent that Terminus doesn't have to care about.

I use Ghost Raiders in my '52 Bane' list as well...they are generally on the flanks due to being able to bypass terrain and are very quick to do so. Some rare times they get front line duty... only cause they outrun the 30 bane knights in the center

So do raiders, blood witches, nyss, etc. Those can actually kill something. I'd rather have bb in pSkarre, eSkarre or the dennys so they actually hit something other then be a wasted 9 pts getting in the way of my own infantry as well.

[Drzombieface]

So do raiders, blood witches, nyss, etc. Those can actually kill something. I'd rather have bb in pSkarre, eSkarre or the dennys so they actually hit something other then be a wasted 9 pts getting in the way of my own infantry as well.

The only time Blackbane's are an admittedly poor decision is when you're playing against Menoth. That's about it.


With Gaspy3's Carnage, BB's are swinging MAT 8 now. Fire, fire everywhere. And Ashen Veil makes them DEF 15 in melee. Not too shabby.


With Terminus, though, the only thing he does for them is running at someone's face to give them the benefit of Malediction. Other than that, they're on their own. But since they're played as a flanking unit 99% of the time, that's not a problem.

[Sanctjud]

So do raiders, blood witches, nyss, etc. Those can actually kill something. I'd rather have bb in pSkarre, eSkarre or the dennys so they actually hit something other then be a wasted 9 pts getting in the way of my own infantry as well.

But Raiders/BloodWitches/Nyss fail command checks And they do not bypass terrain like Blackbanes bypass terrain.
How do Blackbanes get in your way and Raiders/Bloodwitches/Nyss do not?

I can understand you liking Blackbanes with other casters, but:
A. Some people value other roles that they can fill.
B. Some people don't use eSkarre, pSkarre, or Dennys as second caster (sometimes even third)...
C. Some people use other options with the above casters in 'B' that go from Great to Crazy, instead of making Blackbanes 'meh' to Decent.

[Scottl1]

But Raiders/BloodWitches/Nyss fail command checks And they do not bypass terrain like Blackbanes bypass terrain.
How do Blackbanes get in your way and Raiders/Bloodwitches/Nyss do not?

I can understand you liking Blackbanes with other casters, but:
A. Some people value other roles that they can fill.
B. Some people don't use eSkarre, pSkarre, or Dennys as second caster (sometimes even third)...
C. Some people use other options with the above casters in 'B' that go from Great to Crazy, instead of making Blackbanes 'meh' to Decent.

Nyss don't because they sit on the edge of zones and what no they don't need to get into melee to contribute.

A. I get that and said that's good. I never said you can't use them as such. It just keeps being told to me that I must use them.
B. You're right. I don't use the dennys or pskarre either.
C. I said I would rather not that I do. Atm bb, bg etc don't make it into lists. I gave examples of ways I would rather use them not that any one way was exceedingly better. I have also prefaced my statements with in my meta or imo.

[Sanctjud]

My point was, the Blackbanes being incorporeal means they don't get in the way of charge lanes, while the other 'faster' options are "in the way"...and we are talking about comparative roles here I thought... if we are comparing units for the role that the Blackbanes fill, then I am certainly marching Nyss forward.

Nyss provide a different role...though they are good, they do not fit the particular line of thought I believe.

A. You must use Blackbane
B. I don't actually like Blackbanes that much... not even in ideal circumstances...but they are pretty damn annoying to the enemy.
C. But honestly, 'meta' is being thrown around alot... and I think it means less that what people think... suggestions are suggestions, they are all welcomed

D. I am in the meta with Hacksaw... he is Steamroller God... makes my opinions better than all of yours... ps, Drudges are OP and Cryx are underpowered Trololol?!?!

[Scottl1]

My point was, the Blackbanes being incorporeal means they don't get in the way of charge lanes, while the other 'faster' options are "in the way"...and we are talking about comparative roles here I thought... if we are comparing units for the role that the Blackbanes fill, then I am certainly marching Nyss forward.

Nyss provide a different role...though they are good, they do not fit the particular line of thought I believe.

A. You must use Blackbane
B. I don't actually like Blackbanes that much... not even in ideal circumstances...but they are pretty damn annoying to the enemy.
C. But honestly, 'meta' is being thrown around alot... and I think it means less that what people think... suggestions are suggestions, they are all welcomed

D. I am in the meta with Hacksaw... he is Steamroller God... makes my opinions better than all of yours... ps, Drudges are OP and Cryx are underpowered Trololol?!?!

Meta is used because the players each person faces may not all follow the internet for the latest and greatest trends. I mean internet law says when you face khador they are a certain way but we have a guy who loves MoW. The prep work and what works isn't the same if you see the net's best khador. lol

A. Someday I mean i own em just like other stuff better. lol
B. Yes I agree they can be annoying. Watching eVayl sweat as they surround her is funny I just wish they could hit her! lol
C. Already posted the meta deal and why I prefer to use what I use.

D. I hear mercs want drudges so maybe.. maybe.. lol Cryx clearly need a spell to make banes spd 8, be incorporeal, eyeless sight with mat 10. Plus put elich's feat back to the way it was while giving them back some of their old neat spells like tenebrous exile.

[LichLordVexing]

And after all of this excellent info, and interesting debate, at the end of the day it seems he's garbage under 35pts.

[Sanctjud]

Terminus, Deathripper, 30 Bane Knights, WSC, 35 points...have fun?

[LichLordVexing]

No UA?? I'm appalled! What's the Deathripper for? Just to burn the 4 WJ points? I Would think a Stalker might be more useful.

[Lamoron]

Ok that article still doesn't say why they should be in Terminus over pSkarre, pDenny or any list that will help with their mat issues nor does it add something that Nyss, etc can do just as well or better. Great they're incorporeal, light things on fire(if the hit), etc. That's all in the book.

I see we're in backfire effect country but I've got nothing better to do so I'll go for it anyway.

With pSkarre I'd rather have Satyxis Raiders because they have synergy with her (assuming they're not in the list already), and there are several other options that are flat out better than Blackbane's. With pDenny there are a LOT of better options since a ranged unit gets to participate on what will most likely be feat turn so I'd go with a ranged unit every time. I don't really care about all the other casters because we're talking about what the best option for Terminus is, and that's Blackbane's Ghost Raiders.

It sounds like you didn't really understand the article because Blackbane's Ghost Raiders never need help hitting anything because they always get +2 to hit when taking free strikes. Blackbane's Ghost Raiders only ever charge against something if I need them to be corporeal or my opponent gave me some presents, but 9/10 they run in and threaten free strikes, mess up activation sequences, cause half the opponents list to turn around or do counter productive things, and they've won me a LOT of games without ever killing anything.

That's why I don't think you really understand how to use them because you keep talking about hitting and killing things, but they don't need to do that in order to completely wreck an opponents game because it's all about what they "could" do. The only time I've ever had the feeling they weren't worth it was against an eCaine Tier list where the Gun Mages couldn't be neutralized simply by running up to them, and I love using them against Menoth because there's always a choir and it causes ten kinds of havoc when run down to engage them (though admittedly that's easier if you have Ghost Walk).

[Lamoron]

No UA?? I'm appalled! What's the Deathripper for? Just to burn the 4 WJ points? I Would think a Stalker might be more useful.

You'll be appalled for a long time then since there is no UA for Bane Knights

Now I have to cast it on the Skarlock and have it kill some squishy infantry. You've created a monster.

Sorry to pee in your soup again but regular Skarlocks are not in their controlling casters battlegroup

[Sanctjud]

@Lamoron: I do believe he was joking in the UA comment in that he meant one of two things:
1. The lack of a UA to give Bane Knights more Utility.
2. The 'real' UA that is Tartarus.

@Scottl1: I am a believer that Banes are very fine without Tartarus. In addition, I did chuckle at your addressing him as the UA, but it comes back to their 'role'...they are not there for true muscle, they are there to be Terrain Ignoring, Tough, Weaponmasters, with Vengeance that that the opponent can't ignore.

Certainly Tart would be nice in the list, but it would break the "30 Bane Knights LOL" theme

The Deathripper is for Turn 1-2, or Endgame turn arcing. Annihilation 'does' have a use early game, esp. vs. magical light enemy armies. In addition, it leaves having the option for sneaking in a spell assassination (via hellfire) when/if Terminus was gorged on souls the previous turn... as he's not as 'offensive' in the list and in the way I play him.

[Scottl1]

@Lamoron: I do believe he was joking in the UA comment in that he meant one of two things:
1. The lack of a UA to give Bane Knights more Utility.
2. The 'real' UA that is Tartarus.

@Scottl1: I am a believer that Banes are very fine without Tartarus. In addition, I did chuckle at your addressing him as the UA, but it comes back to their 'role'...they are not there for true muscle, they are there to be Terrain Ignoring, Tough, Weaponmasters, with Vengeance that that the opponent can't ignore.

Certainly Tart would be nice in the list, but it would break the "30 Bane Knights LOL" theme

The Deathripper is for Turn 1-2, or Endgame turn arcing. Annihilation 'does' have a use early game, esp. vs. magical light enemy armies. In addition, it leaves having the option for sneaking in a spell assassination (via hellfire) when/if Terminus was gorged on souls the previous turn... as he's not as 'offensive' in the list and in the way I play him.

Ok I'm tired and may have missed it but I adressed BLT as a UA when? May have been a different thread. I run banes without Tartarus in a few lists for that same reason however.

[Scottl1]

I see we're in backfire effect country but I've got nothing better to do so I'll go for it anyway.

With pSkarre I'd rather have Satyxis Raiders because they have synergy with her (assuming they're not in the list already), and there are several other options that are flat out better than Blackbane's. With pDenny there are a LOT of better options since a ranged unit gets to participate on what will most likely be feat turn so I'd go with a ranged unit every time. I don't really care about all the other casters because we're talking about what the best option for Terminus is, and that's Blackbane's Ghost Raiders.

It sounds like you didn't really understand the article because Blackbane's Ghost Raiders never need help hitting anything because they always get +2 to hit when taking free strikes. Blackbane's Ghost Raiders only ever charge against something if I need them to be corporeal or my opponent gave me some presents, but 9/10 they run in and threaten free strikes, mess up activation sequences, cause half the opponents list to turn around or do counter productive things, and they've won me a LOT of games without ever killing anything.

That's why I don't think you really understand how to use them because you keep talking about hitting and killing things, but they don't need to do that in order to completely wreck an opponents game because it's all about what they "could" do. The only time I've ever had the feeling they weren't worth it was against an eCaine Tier list where the Gun Mages couldn't be neutralized simply by running up to them, and I love using them against Menoth because there's always a choir and it causes ten kinds of havoc when run down to engage them (though admittedly that's easier if you have Ghost Walk).

I did understand but you failed to get that for 9 points I want something to kill something not just durdle about. Also at mat even 8 the threat of free strikes doesn't scare def 14+, nor does fire bother my regular opponents in Menoth, legion(fuel for the pot), Trolls, and Cygnar(they just shoot them before they do a thing). Only few it would effect is Ret, Circle and Skorne.

[Sanctjud]

Terminus, Deathripper, 30 Bane Knights, WSC, 35 points...have fun?

No UA?? I'm appalled! ...

I assume you were joking about the UA comment because Tart isn't there...nor are there any Bane Thralls in the list I presented. So... I gave the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were joking instead of making a mistake

[Scottl1]

I assume you were joking about the UA comment because Tart isn't there...nor are there any Bane Thralls in the list I presented. So... I gave the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were joking instead of making a mistake

Sanctjud tha wasn't me bud. lol Look at the name.

[Lamoron]

I did understand but you failed to get that for 9 points I want something to kill something not just durdle about. Also at mat even 8 the threat of free strikes doesn't scare def 14+, nor does fire bother my regular opponents in Menoth, legion(fuel for the pot), Trolls, and Cygnar(they just shoot them before they do a thing). Only few it would effect is Ret, Circle and Skorne.

It's sad really, but you've made up your mind and I can't change that, and math doesn't seem to be your strong suit either if you don't think MAT 6/8 shouldn't scare a defense 14 model on a free strike. It's like trying to explain engineering when all you want is a hammer because, and that's fine but there's no point in spending time trying to teach you then.

[Obeisance]

How does MAT 6 free strikes not scare DEF 14+ models?

MAT 8 vs. DEF 14 is 6+ (72.2%)
MAT 8 vs. DEF 15 is 7+ (58.3%)
MAT 8 vs. DEF 16 is 8+ (41.7%)
MAT 8 is pretty damn reliable.

Obviously Blackbanes role would vary depending on the prevalence of magical weapons in the opponent's army.

You vex me, Scott1.

[West996]

I see we're in backfire effect country but I've got nothing better to do so I'll go for it anyway.

With pSkarre I'd rather have Satyxis Raiders because they have synergy with her (assuming they're not in the list already), and there are several other options that are flat out better than Blackbane's. With pDenny there are a LOT of better options since a ranged unit gets to participate on what will most likely be feat turn so I'd go with a ranged unit every time. I don't really care about all the other casters because we're talking about what the best option for Terminus is, and that's Blackbane's Ghost Raiders.

It sounds like you didn't really understand the article because Blackbane's Ghost Raiders never need help hitting anything because they always get +2 to hit when taking free strikes. Blackbane's Ghost Raiders only ever charge against something if I need them to be corporeal or my opponent gave me some presents, but 9/10 they run in and threaten free strikes, mess up activation sequences, cause half the opponents list to turn around or do counter productive things, and they've won me a LOT of games without ever killing anything.

That's why I don't think you really understand how to use them because you keep talking about hitting and killing things, but they don't need to do that in order to completely wreck an opponents game because it's all about what they "could" do. The only time I've ever had the feeling they weren't worth it was against an eCaine Tier list where the Gun Mages couldn't be neutralized simply by running up to them, and I love using them against Menoth because there's always a choir and it causes ten kinds of havoc when run down to engage them (though admittedly that's easier if you have Ghost Walk).

I remember reading that article and loved it. What a great tactic, I have actually decided to wait a little while before I use it on my regular opponents, I'm going to feel bad lol.

It will actually have a little bit less of an effect because we just play casually and there are no timed turns, but it will still be worth it when they look down at the board and frown as I sit back and sip my coffee, lol.

[SpiderBite]

I want something to kill something not just durdle about...

Wrong faction maybe?
In my experience, Cryx is (generally) less about killing everything on the board and more about the 'durdle' to win scenario or kill the caster.

[LichLordVexing]

You'll be appalled for a long time then since there is no UA for Bane Knights

Reading. Teach your kids, folks! Lol good call Lamoron. I am shamed.

I assume you were joking about the UA comment because Tart isn't there...nor are there any Bane Thralls in the list I presented. So... I gave the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were joking instead of making a mistake

I appreciate being given the benefit of the doubt, but it was a mistake. That'll teach me to read on my tablet while laying down sideways at 3am during a full moon on a Saturday wearing only 1 sock and eating sesame snaps after drinking a Pepsi with a twisty straw from the can!

[Sanctjud]

Bahhh, all you peeps look the same

[Scottl1]

Wrong faction maybe?
In my experience, Cryx is (generally) less about killing everything on the board and more about the 'durdle' to win scenario or kill the caster.

Killing casters isnt my definition of durdling and I do that often. lol

[Scottl1]

How does MAT 6 free strikes not scare DEF 14+ models?

MAT 8 vs. DEF 14 is 6+ (72.2%)
MAT 8 vs. DEF 15 is 7+ (58.3%)
MAT 8 vs. DEF 16 is 8+ (41.7%)
MAT 8 is pretty damn reliable.

Obviously Blackbanes role would vary depending on the prevalence of magical weapons in the opponent's army.

You vex me, Scott1.

Your numbers would be based on ONE roll maybe you should do more math and then you wouldn't be vexed.

[Scottl1]

It's sad really, but you've made up your mind and I can't change that, and math doesn't seem to be your strong suit either if you don't think MAT 6/8 shouldn't scare a defense 14 model on a free strike. It's like trying to explain engineering when all you want is a hammer because, and that's fine but there's no point in spending time trying to teach you then.

Instead of insults you should do a bit more math. Needing average die is only average rolling one time and with A&H everywhere incorporeal is a bit of a joke to just stand around and hope for free strikes. I also never said bb didn't have a place ever. I just don't like them as reinforcements.