Need help with Khador

[Revamp]

Alright, here's the deal. My buddy plays me all the time and can't beat me. I've tried to help him figure out what the problem is, if its his list composition or if he's pulling back too much or what, but his explanation is that he just can't beat Khador. He doesn't get on here, but i figured i'd ask on his behalf and then print the results and take them to him. So, any ideas on how to beat Khador with Skorne? For a little help, this is a complete list of his models:

Lord Tyrant Hexeris
Archdomina Makeda
Master Tormentor Morghoul
Master Ascetic Naaresh
Supreme Aptimus Zaal & Kovaas
Cyclops Savage x 2
Razorworm
Archidon
Bronzeback Titan
Molik Karn
Titan Gladiator
Aptimus Marketh
Bloodrunners (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Cataphract Arcuarii (Leader and 3 Grunts)
Nihilators (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts)
Venators Reivers (Leader and 5 Grunts)
Venators Reiver Officer & Standard
Ancestral Guardian
Ancestral Guardian
Gudrun the Wanderer
Hakaar the Destroyer

The main problem I myself see are that he doesn't have a lot of units for mixed infantry to heavy arm fighting. I've been telling him that he needs to maybe get Praetorean Swordsmen and maybe some Immortals. Also, of note is the fact that he seems to doubt the damage potential of somethings. For example, he thinks of the bloodrunners as a throw away unit to block charges and tie up ranged attacks because they only have pow 8's, and also he seems to be thinking everything wrong would be fixed with some Extollers and an agonizer. Any thoughts you have would be appreciated, and I hope this'll give him the help he needs. He might even start coming on here if its helpful enough, I dunno.

[lifelesspoet]

He needs an agonizer, focus allocation denial will save his beasts. He should have a brute with morghul and maybe naaresh for KD protection. Fill out the acuraii or get cetrati if you are up against high arm/multi wound infantry, even better with xerxis. If you are running high def infantry, we have emakeda's feat, ehexeris blackspot, titan cannoneer and a catapult. If he is getting shot to death, a basilisk krea helps. I don't see anything for an extoller other then charging into clouds/forests. Swordsmen are a better throwaway unit for the cost and better vs infantry via UA feat, bloodrunners are kinda niche. Infantry clearing is a weakness, I tend to use nihilators or the bronzeback personally.

I'm not the expert, so if you have additions or corrections.

[Demonster]

Nihilators are good at infantry clearing and good at dealing some damge. He has enough of a collection to make decent lists, so it might be his playstyle. More often than naught, most of my games against Khador is attrition versus attrition and we just go down to the last models. Just keep your head low and attack head on. Bloodrunners are better at being an assassination unit, just put them to the side as a distraction to harass other support of the enemy, take out any ranged units, or go for the warcaster if they have nothing else to go after. Nihilators are very good first line attackers, followed up by Acuarii.

[Rynth]

Could you give us some sample lists that both you and he have run? Seeing a model list doesn't tell us too much other than he seems to have many of the tools needed to break Khador.

The main problem I myself see are that he doesn't have a lot of units for mixed infantry to heavy arm fighting. I've been telling him that he needs to maybe get Praetorean Swordsmen and maybe some Immortals. Also, of note is the fact that he seems to doubt the damage potential of somethings.

Also, your advise("Buy more infantry"), is good advise for Warmachine, but generally not so good for Hordes. Hordes typically needs more beasts than troops.

... he thinks of the bloodrunners as a throw away unit to block charges and tie up ranged attacks because they only have pow 8's, and also he seems to be thinking everything wrong would be fixed with some Extollers and an agonizer.

That sentiment isn't far off from how most people feel about the Bloodrunners. Depending on you lists an Agonizer might go a long way to fixing things.

[JBRocky]

If he really needs help just have him talk to Richard or hit Planet Comics in Anderson or come over to Borderlands in Greenvile we can help him.

[doom_reaver]

I'm assuming the problem is coming from the winterguard deathstar and Kayazy combined with an iron flesh caster? Good as Khadors armour is Skorne certainly has no problem cracking it nor should we have issues out threating the Khadorans outside of Strakov and pVlads feat.
Rhinodon can help in that regard amuck on trampling beasts leaves a realistic chance of hitting the high def stuff. But rushed, enraged, abused/road to war/ leashed titans should definitely be hitting your lines a lot quicker than you're hitting his.

[FeydRautha]

Nihilators generally are better than Swordsmen if no buffs are available. Agonizer vs Jacks prevents allocation and can shut down a lot of their power. pMorg can feat to do this as well to create two relatively large bubbles of no Jack crazy stuff.

An easy 35 pt list off of the top of my head based on what's posted above would be something like

pMorg
Glad
Karn
Savage
Marketh

Agonizer
Full Nihilators
Min Handlers
Ty Com or Orin Midwinter + Gobbers

Marketh helps pass out Abuse. With Abuse + Rush: Glads charge 11 inches, Savage / Karn can go up to like 13 + 2 reach? Toss in Enrage and they're +4 Str when they arrive. 11+ inches tends to out-threat most Khador Heavies who don't have buffs.

Nihilators can jam high Def or tarpit with tough rolls. TyCom helps them stand for free or gives Morg extra movement to get around. Otherwise Orin zaps tarpits and Gobbers drop smoke for Morg.

My advice is to pick two casters and stick with them.

[Revamp]

If he really needs help just have him talk to Richard or hit Planet Comics in Anderson or come over to Borderlands in Greenvile we can help him.

Richard tried to help him out a bit but the guy doesn't understand what he's talking about. I asked him the same thing but he said something like; "What you gotta do is pMorg, rush+Karn, and then missile him out. If that doesn't work, roll flank and keep him spread out till you get your chance to do that." The guy just doesn't understand what that means, and since then I think he's started to make Richard annoyed. As for him going to borderlands, I'll tell him about that and see if he can get a ride up there.

I'm assuming the problem is coming from the winterguard deathstar and Kayazy combined with an iron flesh caster? Good as Khadors armour is Skorne certainly has no problem cracking it nor should we have issues out threating the Khadorans outside of Strakov and pVlads feat. Rhinodon can help in that regard amuck on trampling beasts leaves a realistic chance of hitting the high def stuff. But rushed, enraged, abused/road to war/ leashed titans should definitely be hitting your lines a lot quicker than you're hitting his.

Actually, though i have iron flesh casters i rarely throw it on either of those two units. I normally throw it on the caster himself or a solo i want to stay alive. As for the need for what a typical list from me looks like, it normally goes something like these 50 pt examples:


Supreme Kommandant Irusk
Berserker
Kodiak
Torch
Kayazy Assassins (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Kayazy Assassin Underboss
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Man-o-war Shocktroopers (Leader and 2 Grunts)
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts)
Widowmaker Marksman

Koldun Kommander Aleksandra Zerkova
Spriggan
Torch
War dog
Kayazy Assassins (Leader and 9 Grunts)
Kayazy Assassin Underboss
Man-o-war Demolition Corps (Leader and 4 Grunts)
Widowmakers (Leader and 3 Grunts)
Winter Guard Mortar Crew (Leader and Grunt)
Kell Bailoch
Man-o-war Drakhun (with dismount
Widowmaker Marksman

[JBRocky]

Ok most WM/H players are there on Thursday and some on Sunday and there are enough of us that play Skorne that can help him out. Should be easier to help in person instead of by posting here.