Crevasse =magic attack; Essence Blast/Primal=???

[PG_Geliron]

As we know, the Spray generated by Crevasse is not a Spell, but a magic attack. (Ruling)

Is this a general rule you can apply to similar worded Spells, e.g. Essence Blast or Primal?

Choose a friendly living non-warlock/warcaster Faction model in this modelʼs control area. Make a SP 6 magic attack using the
chosen model as the attackʼs point of origin. Models hit suffer a damage roll with a POW equal to 5 + the base STR of the
chosen model. After the spell is resolved, remove the chosen model from play.

Choose a friendly Faction warbeast in this modelʼs control area. Target an enemy model within 8 ̋ of the chosen warbeast and
make a magic attack against it. The chosen warbeast is the attackʼs point of origin. If the enemy model is hit, it suffers a damage
roll with a POW equal to the warbeastʼs base STR.

[Rynth]

As we know, the Spray generated by Crevasse is not a Spell, but a magic attack. (Ruling)

Is this a general rule you can apply to similar worded Spells, e.g. Essence Blast or Primal?

Both those spell descriptions say make "a magic attack."

Choose a friendly living non-warlock/warcaster Faction model in this modelʼs control area. Make a SP 6 magic attack using the chosen model as the attack's point of origin. Models hit ....

Choose a friendly Faction warbeast in this modelʼs control area. Target an enemy model within 8 ̋ of the chosen warbeast and make a magic attack against it. The chosen warbeast ....

Emphasis mine.

[Del Fuego]

I believe the OP's question is: Do the attacks from Primal Shock and Essence Blast count as a spell, or do they qualify ONLY as a magic attack like Crevasse's spray.

[PG_Geliron]

I believe the OP's question is: Do the attacks from Primal Shock and Essence Blast count as a spell, or do they qualify ONLY as a magic attack like Crevasse's spray.

Correct.

The motivation behind my question is: How do we decide which Spell effects are Spells and Magic Attacks and which are only Magic Attacks in general?
I (as a non-native speaker) can't tell the logical difference between "make a Magic Attack" (Crevasse) and "is a XYZ magic attack" (e.g. Force Bolt), although the wording is slightly different. Additional when I read the Spell and Magic Ability part in the rulebook, it comes to mind, that Magic Attacks and Spells are the same. But through the Crevasse Ruling we know that this is not correct. The conclusion could be that models using a Magic Ability don't casts spells, which would obviously be odd.

[Rynth]

The motivation behind my question is: How do we decide which Spell effects are Spells and Magic Attacks and which are only Magic Attacks in general?

Its kind of the same difference between a spell that gives concealment vs a spell that grants +2 DEF vs Ranged and magic. They both do mostly the same thing, but one does a thing and the other creates a thing that does a thing.
In Essence Blast and Primal Shock's case both spells make a magic attack as opposed to being a magic attack. You'll not that those spells have a POW of either "*" or "-," IMO, that shows that while the damage is caused by the spell but isn't the spell causing the damage. The difference is slight, even to native English speakers, but very important.

Additional when I read the Spell and Magic Ability part in the rulebook, it comes to mind, that Magic Attacks and Spells are the same. But through the Crevasse Ruling we know that this is not correct. The conclusion could be that models using a Magic Ability don't casts spells, which would obviously be odd.

Assuming the translation is correct, Magic Abilities are spells because the Magic Ability section of the rules says that *Actions and *Attacks under Magic Ability are spells.
All offensive spells are Magic Attacks, but not all Magic Attacks are spells.

[regleant]

Functionally, this comes up with Spell Ward, so that it cannot be the target of Spells. The Crevasse "Magic Attack" gets around this because it is not a spell. But Primal Shock and Essence Blast are indeed spells, and cannot target a model with Spell Ward.

I think I'm right, but wanted to put a functional example out there so we don't trip over too many words.

[HRViolation]

Whenever Warmahordes 3.0 comes out they should clean up this whole mess and call it all spells. To confuse things even more are the attacks (ranged and melee) that have the magic identifier, in English we would want to call these "Magical Attacks" yet that is a restricted word/phrase.

[Rynth]

Functionally, this comes up with Spell Ward, so that it cannot be the target of Spells. The Crevasse "Magic Attack" gets around this because it is not a spell. But Primal Shock and Essence Blast are indeed spells, and cannot target a model with Spell Ward.

I'm pretty sure that isn't right.

If Crevasse boxes its original target, you can make a SP 6 attack using the boxed model as the attackʼs point of origin. Models hit suffer a POW 12 magic damage roll. Models boxed by Crevasse are removed from play.

Choose a friendly Faction warbeast in this modelʼs control area. Target an enemy model within 8˝ of the chosen warbeast and make a magic attack against it. The chosen warbeast is the attackʼs point of origin. If the enemy model is hit, it suffers a damage roll with a POW equal to the warbeastʼs base STR.

Choose a friendly living non-warlock/warcaster Faction model in this modelʼs control area. Make a SP 6 magic attack using the chosen model as the attackʼs point of origin. Models hit suffer a damage roll with a POW equal to 5 + the base STR of the chosen model. After the spell is resolved, remove the chosen model from play.

All three spells use very similar language. I don't see how one can go one way and the others the other way.

[Saraminss]

the difference is that Crevasse makes an attack then the a magic attack after the original.... the other two you choose a friendly.... yadayada... and make a .... yadayada magic attack... the first is an effect of the original attack the other two it is the original magic attack.

that said ... I am not sure of the answer here

[PG_SMDVogrin]

Choose a friendly Faction warbeast in this modelʼs control area. Target an enemy model within 8˝ of the chosen warbeast and...

Key words, in my reading, highlighted. Primal Shock is targeting a model that cannot be targeted by spells - No.

I would agree with you on Essence Blast, though, the wording is pretty much identical.

[Bishop84]

the difference is that Crevasse makes an attack then the a magic attack after the original.... the other two you choose a friendly.... yadayada... and make a .... yadayada magic attack... the first is an effect of the original attack the other two it is the original magic attack.

The way I see it, all three function much the same. The 'spell' part of Crevasse is the original attack, then it generates a magic spray attack after that. In both Primal Shock and Essence Blast, the 'spell' part is "Choose a friendly..." which then generate magic attacks after that.

[Saraminss]

they do except the original target is an enemy for the one, and you damage it... then it creates another attack while the rest don't damage your guy... ...I am actually really not sure though ... with the first, there is a spell against a target while the magic attack is a result of the attack of the spell ... the other two are attacks originating from the target as the spell... at least that is the way I think it will eventually be ruled

[Wishing]

There are differences between Crevasse and the other two spells, but also similarities, so since the infernal ruling doesn't state *why* Crevasse sprays are not spells, we can only speculate as to what the intent is.

The similarity between the spells is that they all initially choose/target a model, and then subsequently does damage to a different model. If it is this two-tiered structure that is the reason a Crevasse spray is not a spell, then neither are Primal Shock or Essence Blast.

The difference between the spells is that Crevasse's first part is a targeted attack, whereas the other two are just "choose a model". If the fact that Crevasse is made up of two attacks, and the other two are just a single indirect attack, is the key, then I guess only Crevasse sprays are not a spell.

[SirMythos]

The similarity between the spells is that they all initially choose/target a model, and then subsequently does damage to a different model. If it is this two-tiered structure that is the reason a Crevasse spray is not a spell, then neither are Primal Shock or Essence Blast.

The difference between the spells is that Crevasse's first part is a targeted attack, whereas the other two are just "choose a model". If the fact that Crevasse is made up of two attacks, and the other two are just a single indirect attack, is the key, then I guess only Crevasse sprays are not a spell.

And both ways sounds very logical for me. If i could choose, i would take the first one, as it sounds more structunal for me.

[SpiderBite]

An offensive spell is a magic attack that requires that the model casting the spell succeed in a magic attack roll to put its effects into play.

Okay. simple enough. why does this work with Crevasse?
Crevasse
A RNG8 Pow12 spell. That is the 'offensive spell' part.
The spray is a side-effect of the original spell. The original spell can go off without triggering the spray easily.
"dur, Mr.smarty-pants. so, why wouldnt it work with EB or PS?"
Primal Shock
Choose a FF warbeast. okay. no spell yet.
Then you pick an enemy model within 8" of it and make a magic attack against it. Bingo. There's the spell.
Essence Blast.
Choose friendly victim. again, no spell being cast yet.
Make a spray attack using the victim as the POO. Blam. There's your spell.

The spray from Crevasse is an after-effect of the original offensive spell, being the POW12.
The damage from Primal Shock and spray from Essence Blast are the spell effects, not an after-effect.

I hope this helps y'all understand why the ruling would be different.



*-i said poo

[SirMythos]

Since all three spell have the status of an offensive spell, the explanation of SpiderBite sounds right. Why else should a spell, that chooses a friendly model be offensive?

[Wishing]

I agree that SpiderBite's explanation, which represents the second of the two causalities I put forth earlier, makes sense. I don't think either the spell descriptions or the infernal ruling support this interpretation, but they don't support the other interpretation either, so we have to just go on instinct. And my instinct says that SpiderBite's logic probably matches the intention behind the spells.

[tiannor]

As we know, the Spray generated by Crevasse is not a Spell, but a magic attack. (Ruling)

Huh, well, I'm a little bit confused now, as your infernal ruling seems to contradict an older ruling by Maudlin: LINK

[Rynth]

New rulings override older rulings.

[Macallan]

As we know, the Spray generated by Crevasse is not a Spell, but a magic attack. (Ruling)

Is this a general rule you can apply to similar worded Spells, e.g. Essence Blast or Primal?

Yes you can.