Game Against 3Vlad

[Trihnicus]

I played

Evlad
-Drago

MOW Kovnik
- Spriggan

2x Kayazy Eliminators
1x Wardog
1x Manhunter
1x Great Bears
1x Greylord Ternions
1x Drago

He Played
Lvlad
-Juggernaut
-Drago

1x Max Uhlans
1x Markov
1x MOW Drakhuun
1x Yuri
1x Manhunter

We both played High threat range casters and we knew what our respective charge ranges were. So we played the "You draw" ... "No you Draw" kind of thing. I ended up letting him have the Alpha relying on my various high armors and high defenses to save me.

He got a charge off with all 5 Uhlans and the Drakhuun as well as Yuri. He ended up doing about 20 points of damage to both Drago and the Spriggan the Drakhuun was able to kill a Greylord. This was his feat turn and we were expecting him to get the super crazy 11" retreat zone for 3Vlad. We both realized at the end of it that Uhlans under feat have a rather serious flaw. (more on this later) His Drakhuun got his 8 inch sprint into my backfield. His feat turn was dissapointing and all 5 Uhlans and Yuri were sitting right in front of me. I don't have to go into how HOF works on Greatbears or how well Eliminators synergize with Evlad but all 5 Uhlans, Yuri, and the manhunter died and I was able to engage the Drakhuun who was sitting deep in my field with a pair of Eliminators.

The battle was fairly well decided at this point. I had feated Eliminators squaring off against juggy/ markov and Drago.

The only other thing of note left in the game was a failed assasination attempt by 3vlad and Drago's charge under Infernal machine. (Infernal machine is fantastic and a mat 9 speed 6 Drago is to be feared).

3vlad HOFed himself and needed to clear a pair of Eliminators to get to Evlad... he wasn't able to manage it. Evlad managed to table his opposite with a significant chunk of points remaining which leads into some of my analysis of why this happened.


We were both used to how Uhlans work under Evlad. They are mat 9/11 with P+S 19 lances and impact attacks with HOF they are monstrous. Even with HOF up on his Uhlans and a beauty of a charge they weren't able to put my heavies in the dirt.... This was mostly because I was also able to prohibit impact attacks but all things told even if one of his Uhlans had been able to trigger sprint it would not have changed the game remarkably.

If you are counting on Sprint to Save your Uhlans for consecutive charges you need to target Infantry. Mat 6 even with HOF up is not particularly conducive to killing High Defense infantry and their one pow 16 lance isn't going to do terribly much to heavy jacks/beasts. I actually think Evlad is still a better Uhlan caster than 3Vlad. Having them stuck in at Def 16 / Arm 22 after having delivered a Juggernaut quality blow that can hit anything it pleases at range is nothing to sneeze at. Min units were decided upon as the better solution if you did want to run Uhlans because you need to maximize maneuverability.

Cavalry under feat NEEDS to kill what it charges in order to not be completely screwed during their opponents activation. a 2 inch Sidestep away or to the side or wherever else you can imagine is not enough to get away from most any dedicated Melee line. The Drakhuun killed what it charged it sprinted away and was able to eventually help mangle my Drago... he performed admirably even in adverse conditions proving that if used properly Lvlad's feat can be effective.

Without his Predecessor's survival mechanisms Lvlad is significantly squishier.This means you are going to have to be far choosier about where to employ him while also feeling like he needs to be more aggressive to make attrition work in his favor since he lacks the support tools that Pvlad and Evlad use to do it from further away. I am far less intimidated by 20-22 Arm than I am by 18-19 defense.

It may not be Superiority but Infernal machine is still drool inducing particularly under Evlad who has never had that kind of blatantly superior jack support before. It might have been a little overkill on Drago but Any of our Non-character jacks or hell even a Character one would still appreciate it and it would allow him to run 2 jacks somewhat more efficiently. We both agreed that his Jacks need to be involved in the feat turn. They make the best use out of it and they have better odds of wasting whatever they were going for. Which leads to a point that his feat turn does not require Battlegroup status. Jackmarshaling a second or third jack to get some more oomph may be interesting but this theory needs testing.

We had him proxy Fenris in his next game and the interaction was remarkably satisfying. All of the Solos were far more reliable for him than the Uhlans were, so a Dream team of Drakhuun/Fenris/Markov doing a little dance of death with Jack/Infantry support should wind up being more satisfying than the Uhlan approach.

Which leads me to my primary complaint... the Legendairy horselord with a feat entitled "Charge of the Horse Lords" Doesn't really appreciate my favorite unit in the book... namely the one on horses. I wanted desperately for this to be the case... I do think he is a good caster and perhaps Evlad is just going to be a bit of a tough matchup for him but we shall see.

[IronComrade]

Pretty much confirms my thoughts about him as well. I feel like Drakhun & Yuri are auto includes, along with Markov and maybe a min unit of Uhlans. I feel like the gun carriage is better for the points as it adds a solid shooting element to the army. Other than that I feel like the usually khadorian compliment of infantry is nice to have. Max IFP with dash and HoF are pretty disgusting if you ask me.

Also Drago is amazing with lVlad, never leave home without him.

The most intriguing thing about your post I thought was the Kovnik marshaling the Spriggan. How did that turn out?

[Trihnicus]

oh? That's simple... I wanted a Spriggan... I wanted more Armor. I did not have the focus for the Spriggan. Kovnik solves all of these for me beautifully. He's my second favorite feat target after Eliminators. he just gains immense flexibility with a 10+ inch threat range with a P+S 18 Weapon Master Axe or a Rat 9 Pow 14 Cannon. His Short range is really a Non Factor because he's inches from combat pretty much guaranteed. For an Extra point or two I could have the Drakhuun... but he doesn't hit as hard and doesn't give me an extra 3 focus to play with per turn on the Spriggan.

With a 9 inch charge range the Spriggan pretty much decides when he wants to put his lance in something and at Mat 10 + 3d6 it damn well gets put there. It's not quite as good as being able to buy an extra 3 lances but I don't really have that option with Vlad... and it gets me the Flares I need when I run Widowmakers.

My biggest problem with the Kovnik so far has been charge blocking him with things I activate before him... I should have that solved in a few more games.

[mcpolle]

Thx for the write up, have my LVlad in the post as we speak, and am very much looking forward to getting him on the table, funny that, as you say, that his feat, seems to be wrongly named :-(, have also talked with my Khador buddies here in DK, and we all seem to think the same, that horses are maybe not the best bet for him,

What I do like for him, if I can get it to work is eAlexia, also in the Collossal book, because she gets the arm bonus just like lVlad, and with the tokens you can counter any nasty magic attacks at LVlad, not sure if it works on the table, but the paper version looks to .... Have to try it and get back to you.

Polle

[ScottEBJJ]

When are people going to understand that just because his feat specifies cavalry that you should not just load your list with cavalry.

The single attack cavalry, particularly the lower MAT Uhlans, just do not benefit from the feat enough to be taken just because the feat technically works on them.

[Natetehaggresar]

When are people going to understand that just because his feat specifies cavalry that you should not just load your list with cavalry.

The single attack cavalry, particularly the lower MAT Uhlans, just do not benefit from the feat enough to be taken just because the feat technically works on them.

Seconded

I take a 3Vlad, a Fenris, and a jack or two. Maybe when those greylord cav come it it will be a sweet feat. Right now 3vlad is just a support king with dash, HoF, and Infernal machine, with a face beatery trick if people set up their infantry wrong.

[wargolem]

For future reference, cast dash on feat turn so your Uhlans can sprint away. Dash makes them ignore free strikes. You mentioned the mat 6 and I agree that sucks, but you do seem to know cavalry very well, so you do know that they get +2 on the charge correct? Also you may want to consider Gun Carriage for Vlad3 because it works a little better under HOF and is a cavalry model as well.

[epyonliu]

The problem is not free strike when sprint, but to trigger sprint in the first place, which requires killing an enemy model.

[Natetehaggresar]

The problem is not free strike when sprint, but to trigger sprint in the first place, which requires killing an enemy model.

Exactly.

11 point max unit of uhlans kill a heavy. 1 model landed the killing blow to sprint away, the other 4 just contributed damage.

The enemy doesn't always line up impact attacks for all the charging unit.

Also if the enemy unit in the way has tough it gets dicey about whether the impact attacks are worth it.

Also just your charge attack gets the +2 mat, impact attacks don't.

Finally its hard to make side step worth while with 1 initial attack on the charge. I'm really hoping that the greylord cav have decent melee attacks, or benefit from battle wizard, or both.

[Trihnicus]

Mat 6/8 is fine but when you are swinging at defense 17 it's still just a losing proposition even with HOF. and they did a very respectable amount of damage but they NEED to get that kill and targeting a heavy just doesn't guarantee that. And the concept that cavalry doesn't matter when taking him just boggles my mind... he's our Cavalry Warcaster... if you don't take cavalry he's just Jrandom Warcaster with 2-3 support spells and ok damage output. Put another way... Why should I bother to play him if he's not going to enable a new and interesting playstyle. I don't think the addition of 1 inch of movement is going to outweigh what Irusk does to support his Infantry... or Pbutcher or etc.

Dash is fine but it doesn't change my game so much that I'm incredibly excited to go out and buy more stuff... He didn't have to be broken. He didn't have to be our best caster.... he just had to be able to play Uhlans well. Why would I buy this guy when I don't have either Irusk or Pbutcher yet if he wants to do about the same thing?

[ScottEBJJ]

Mat 6/8 is fine but when you are swinging at defense 17 it's still just a losing proposition even with HOF. and they did a very respectable amount of damage but they NEED to get that kill and targeting a heavy just doesn't guarantee that. And the concept that cavalry doesn't matter when taking him just boggles my mind... he's our Cavalry Warcaster... if you don't take cavalry he's just Jrandom Warcaster with 2-3 support spells and ok damage output. Put another way... Why should I bother to play him if he's not going to enable a new and interesting playstyle. I don't think the addition of 1 inch of movement is going to outweigh what Irusk does to support his Infantry... or Pbutcher or etc.

Dash is fine but it doesn't change my game so much that I'm incredibly excited to go out and buy more stuff... He didn't have to be broken. He didn't have to be our best caster.... he just had to be able to play Uhlans well. Why would I buy this guy when I don't have either Irusk or Pbutcher yet if he wants to do about the same thing?

He is not our Cavalry Warcaster. He has only one ability that specifies cavalry, and most current cavalry do not benefit from the feat very well at all. Stop trying to make him something that he is not. Play to his strengths and you'll realize a few things. Even with just himself, Fenris, and a reach Jack he can have super effective feats turns, and that is without gimping the list by building to his feat. Dash is bonkers on that size of control areas. And most importantly he plays a different game from pIrusk or pButcher.

I just saw another thread where you posted a competent lVlad list so I feel as if you get it to some extent. But both lists posted in this thread are really just plain awful that I'm questioning your ability to judge effectiveness.

[Trihnicus]

You don't really get that I was playing against Lvlad do you guy. I also don't have any choice about the models I run as they are the only ones I bloody own. You are also entirely clueless about my Meta which is rather bizarrely disjointed from what people encounter in the tournament scene.


such thoughtlessness must be a blessing. To live in such darkness must spare you a great deal of pain. I wish you the best of it.

The man rides a horse he is cavalry.. by definition a cavalry warcaster. His feat is Charge of the bloody horses... implies to the high heavens that he is a cavalry warcaster. His fluff talks about the name of his horse and the grandeur of the horselords and all that is great about horses. No he's not a cavalry warcaster and that's the bloody problem.... Why isn't he?

[mcpolle]

+1, and well said that man :-)

[ScottEBJJ]

You don't really get that I was playing against Lvlad do you guy. I also don't have any choice about the models I run as they are the only ones I bloody own. You are also entirely clueless about my Meta which is rather bizarrely disjointed from what people encounter in the tournament scene.


such thoughtlessness must be a blessing. To live in such darkness must spare you a great deal of pain. I wish you the best of it.

The man rides a horse he is cavalry.. by definition a cavalry warcaster. His feat is Charge of the bloody horses... implies to the high heavens that he is a cavalry warcaster. His fluff talks about the name of his horse and the grandeur of the horselords and all that is great about horses. No he's not a cavalry warcaster and that's the bloody problem.... Why isn't he?

Because they did not design him that way, that should be readily apparent at this point. Regardless of what he is and what his feat is called, he has extremely limited synergy with most of the available cavalry models. Fluff does not equal rules. And just because he isn't effective as a cavalry warcaster, does not mean he isn't effective overall. He isn't going to be that type of model so there is no point in trying to jam cavalry into his lists when it really doesn't work.

I get it you wanted the guy on the horse to be really awesome at running the other guys on horses, but he isn't. You have to accept that and move on. People need to accept that and stop decrying the caster because he doesn't fit their preconceived notion of what he is suppose to be. Having those types of expectations just isn't reasonable in this game.

You asked before why should you buy this guy if he isn't going to run Uhlans well. And its simple, he plays a really different game from those Warcasters you listed. He's way faster, way more mobile, not reliant on IF (for better or worse), gets to have a balls out offensive turn (a Warcaster rarity) without dying, and does allow certain under utilized models (Fenris for starters) to really shine.

[Trihnicus]

What does it matter if he's generally effective? I've not claimed that he isn't. This was an analysis of one game I played against him where he was ran as cavalry and that list's downfalls. And every caster we have aside from Harkevich and Karchev is generally effective infantry support.(possible exceptions for Lady Z) The fact that he chooses to do it mildly different isn't much of a shocker. It's not a major changeup.

I've also not claimed that anyone should spam cavalry once... I'm NOT trying to put cavalry in his lists and that is the shame really.

We have movement shenanigans on pretty much every single caster... they aren't new. his is more inclusive for his infantry if less effective. The major point about that spell is the Free Strike immunity which is quite a bit removed but I don't take enough of them to really say that it wows me with it's unbridled potential. And he really shouldn't wow me... with his threat range and potential power if he had wow potential he'd be broken and people would claim he was cheezy etc. That is not really desirable...

And no I don't really see a reason to "move on" if general consensus is the world is well there is no reason for us to get cool **** like Stormwall. You also don't get better with something by ignoring it's downfalls... you tear it apart until you understand every facet of it's structure. You find every flaw, every downside, every drawback so that you know exactly what you are capable of and more importantly what you are not capable of. At the same time as you are tearing it apart you and other people are also looking for how to make it better. The parting of the front line strategy for follow up Great Bears or Doomies for example that I fed the other page. trying for only half that equation is just something that I could not ever see as desirable... why bother discussing tactics if all we do is cheer lead our favorite models? There are threads dedicated to why we love Khador and what we name our models and they are wonderful for what they are but if it's all that was here these boards wouldn't have much of a point for people looking for strategy discussions.... your blanket insistence that such discourse is pointless just seems... odd.

[Natetehaggresar]

Dash is bonkers. Dash is good on melee stuff, but its WAY BETTER on ranged stuff.

Enemy run to engage your Nyss, WGI, WGRC? You could use their action to kill those dues in melee or you could cast dash, move HoF over to you ranged unit, then just activate them and advance forward another 7-8 inches and remove the enemy caster. Or all enemy support what have you, its amazing.

Also Infernal machine is so much easier to hot swap than superiority is, and early game vlad doesn't need much focus. You can move two jacks upfield relatively quickly over the first two turns.

Vlads feat on himself with three initial attacks, fenris with 2 and multiple potential berserk attacks, and drago taking 2, 3 inch sides steps is crazy good. Also spriggans can bulldoze with side step, let that sink in.

Most our casters have far less in the way of movement hijinx. Boundless charge and superiority that is sprinkled around our faction is no where near as versatile as dash.

Yah we have some other sweet feats that speed stuff up, but vlad lets you do bonkers movement shenanigans every turn. I also still think that the grey lord cav will be bonkers with him. All light cavalry so far have at least 2 initial attacks, and some have 3. If they did benefit from battle wizard or had something else like it I can image alot of dumb stuff. Charge 12 inches, kill sidetep, kill, side step, cast ice cage, next.

Alot of things in this game are built looking forward towards new releases, don't get tied up with just whats out now.

Look at Rag Man, he was just super lame, now he can hide behind a colassal and be bonkers, and that is all he needs to do.

[Trihnicus]

I have to admit that the possibilities of the outriders is intriguing if not yet existent.

[quindraco]

Vlads feat on himself with three initial attacks, fenris with 2 and multiple potential berserk attacks, and drago taking 2, 3 inch sides steps is crazy good.

Vlad has 2 initials, and side step is 2 inches.

[@Kriegsspiele]

Vlad has 2 initials, and side step is 2 inches.

He's got 3 if not charging: combat rider

Drago can add 1'' for a focus: Run Riot

[Natetehaggresar]

Vlad has 2 initials, and side step is 2 inches.

If vlad doesn't charge the mount attack is an initial attack not an impact attack.

Sidestep is 2" and drago's imprint gives him 1 more.

[Trihnicus]

If vlad doesn't charge the mount attack is an initial attack not an impact attack.

Sidestep is 2" and drago's imprint gives him 1 more.

This is a bit of false statement. Drago's imprint only works if there are no enemy models within his melee range AFTER you have destroyed something. you are going to have to do some shenanigans in favorable scenario's to get them to stack like that not to mention have spent focus on his imprint... which means you are planning a few steps ahead on a bit of a gamble.

and the text for combat rider just for clarifications sake. "During a combat action it did not make a charge attack, this model can make one melee attack with it's mount." It does not use the word initial so it would fall under special rules that give a model attacks that are not initial attacks.

[@Kriegsspiele]

the text for combat rider just for clarifications sake. "During a combat action it did not make a charge attack, this model can make one melee attack with it's mount." It does not use the word initial so it would fall under special rules that give a model attacks that are not initial attacks.

They are initial melee attacks. More at: http://j.mp/Vlad3Rules

[wargolem]

I think you should have posted the link straight to the rules forum Krieg I followed your links and here is the link you should have posted. http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post1488749

[@Kriegsspiele]

I think you should have posted the link straight to the rules forum Krieg I followed your links and here is the link you should have posted. http://privateerpressforums.com/show...=1#post1488749

The first link points straight to the rules forum? To the answer to be serious.

[wargolem]

The link in the post above mine was going to the list discussion page where you condensed the rulings, some around here are ... how to put it nicely..... very picky about things like that and too lazy to follow it out.

[@Kriegsspiele]

They are initial melee attacks. More at: http://j.mp/Vlad3Rules

The link in the post above mine was going to the list discussion page where you condensed the rulings, some around here are ... how to put it nicely..... very picky about things like that and too lazy to follow it out.

True. That's why the first link "initial melee attacks" points to the answer, the 2nd to more thoughts on the rules. I hope that I've got all those intervening rules right now (especially the timing). If there's still something wrong with the examples, please tell me!

[Trihnicus]

point to Kriegsspiele. I'm not sure how much that changes him in my mind but it IS something that I wasn't scoring in his favor.