One of these things is not like the other..

[Obeisance]

Hey guys.

I'm looking at Menoth with lustful eyes, after the latest MoM podcast. I'm debating ordering a bunch of stuff and painting it up, while I play Cryx at the next couple of tourneys. With a faction coin on the line, I want to win it.

Just hoping you guys could answer some questions for me.

a) Caster pairings. I don't have a feel for what each caster's game is. What are the most commonly paired casters in a 50pt, non-Divide and Conquer, standard timed turn environment and why?

b) Jack preferences. Which jack mix generally goes with which caster and why?

Though, everyone seems to take Reckoners... and I can see why. Add Choir, RAT 7, P+S 19, POW 15 gun. Constant Veil and a ranged DEF debuff. Totally crazy good.

c) And again, same thing for infantry. Errants and Zealots seem to go with everyone. Temple Flameguard with Feora.

Thanks!

[wazatdingder]

First off, it is good you finally see the light. Second, we are not cryx. Meaning, there are no Banes in menoth. Our top tourney casters are probably pKreoss, Harby, pSevy, and eFeora, but that is not exclusive. I would say we can play a wider variety of game styles than most, so what is good for one menite may not work so well for another. What are you looking to get out of the faction?

[Obeisance]

I'm well aware that there's no Banes in Menoth. =p~~~

Ok. So pKreoss, Harby, pSev and eFeora are the top choices. I've played against them all.

What do I want to get out of Menoth? Something different, really. I've played a lot of Cryx. I've dabbled in Circle. I played Legion for about 6 months, found the playstyle and lock choices somewhat boring. Sold them.

I want to crack open faces with Reckoners, set stuff on fire and not put up with other faction's BS. lol.

[Zemmi]

You want to light stuff on fire? I suggest looking in to pFeora and eFeora. pFeora is a one man army with a pretty nice feat. She doesn't do much for her army but is very fun to play with.

[DaNDeMeNTo]

Hey guys.

I'm looking at Menoth with lustful eyes, after the latest MoM podcast. I'm debating ordering a bunch of stuff and painting it up, while I play Cryx at the next couple of tourneys. With a faction coin on the line, I want to win it.

Just hoping you guys could answer some questions for me.

a) Caster pairings. I don't have a feel for what each caster's game is. What are the most commonly paired casters in a 50pt, non-Divide and Conquer, standard timed turn environment and why?

b) Jack preferences. Which jack mix generally goes with which caster and why?

Though, everyone seems to take Reckoners... and I can see why. Add Choir, RAT 7, P+S 19, POW 15 gun. Constant Veil and a ranged DEF debuff. Totally crazy good.

c) And again, same thing for infantry. Errants and Zealots seem to go with everyone. Temple Flameguard with Feora.

Thanks!

Not the most experienced Menite out there, but our Top5 Jacks are arguably:

Reckoner, Avatar, Vanquisher, Redeemer, Templar

Not every caster likes every one of these, but if you go with the Top4 casters that wazat mentioned above, all of them want a Reckoner, all but pKreoss (and possibly eFeora) want the Avatar, all but Harbinger (and possibly pSev, since he wants the Blessing of Vengeance, depends on point level & focus help for Sev) want the Redeemer. eFeora likes the Templar because Escort is amazing with it & the Vanquisher as it sets stuff on fire (pKreoss runs a Vanquisher very well, too).
All of the aforementioned casters indeed like Errants as their infantry core (with the possible exception of eFeora). pKreoss & pSev because Defender's Ward makes them insane. Harbi probably needs the Covenant & Rhupert to run them to their fullest potential, tho. The only other unit I feel deserves a mention in terms of Top-Tier competitiveness are Daughters. Incredibly versatile, great at jamming key opposing units, insane Def when combined with DW and/or Rhupert, and a good answer to potentially devastating enemy units/solos such as Bloodtrackers, Widowmakers, Necrosurgeons, MHSF etc.

Like I said, I'm not the most experienced player but I have played a lot of SR2012 scenarios over the past few months and I've actually exclusively fielded the 4 casters wazat mentioned.

[Snipafist]

a) Caster pairings. I don't have a feel for what each caster's game is. What are the most commonly paired casters in a 50pt, non-Divide and Conquer, standard timed turn environment and why?

It's fairly meta-dependent, but pKreoss, pSevy, Harbinger, and eFeora are generally considered our top tier (as you've already mentioned). Slowly but surely, Vindictus seems to be climbing up and there's been a lot of pFeora murmurings lately, although time will tell if that's legit or just a fad. eKreoss is also arguably top-tier, but you need to run him with his theme list. eSevy is also pretty good, but requires some very deep knowledge of the game and your meta.

b) Jack preferences. Which jack mix generally goes with which caster and why?

Though, everyone seems to take Reckoners... and I can see why. Add Choir, RAT 7, P+S 19, POW 15 gun. Constant Veil and a ranged DEF debuff. Totally crazy good.

Most of our jacks are worthwhile (save the poor Castigator, really) in the right circumstances. The ones you'll see the most of are Vanquishers, Reckoners, Repenters, and the Avatar. Repenter, Vanquisher and Avatar can go in anywhere because they're focus efficient. Reckoners are great, but can be rather focus greedy (they want to charge and boost/buy more attacks constantly). Every jack has its place (Vigilants and Dervishes are good with Amon, Crusaders are great in theme lists with jack discounts and/or speed boosts, Templars are good with movement shenanigans/improvements, Redeemers are good with extra buffs beyond the Choir, etc. etc.) with the possible exception of the poor Castigator.

c) And again, same thing for infantry. Errants and Zealots seem to go with everyone. Temple Flameguard with Feora.

I'd say Zealots can go with anyone that isn't melee-centric. They won't find much use in a Harbinger or eKreoss list. Errants go well with casters that can help their defenses a bit (as 12/16 isn't terribly resilient except vs blast damage). Temple Flame Guard work with anyone. They're pretty useful and very cheap.

[FearMeMortals]

haha you ask a very complex question, I wonder if anyone feels like writing a suitably detailed reply

I suggest you try searching and using the Cannon of the True Law

[Snipafist]

a) Caster pairings. I don't have a feel for what each caster's game is. What are the most commonly paired casters in a 50pt, non-Divide and Conquer, standard timed turn environment and why?

It's fairly meta-dependent, but pKreoss, pSevy, Harbinger, and eFeora are generally considered our top tier (as you've already mentioned). Slowly but surely, Vindictus seems to be climbing up and there's been a lot of pFeora murmurings lately, although time will tell if that's legit or just a fad. eKreoss is also arguably top-tier, but you need to run him with his theme list. eSevy is also pretty good, but requires some very deep knowledge of the game and your meta.

b) Jack preferences. Which jack mix generally goes with which caster and why?

Though, everyone seems to take Reckoners... and I can see why. Add Choir, RAT 7, P+S 19, POW 15 gun. Constant Veil and a ranged DEF debuff. Totally crazy good.

Most of our jacks are worthwhile (save the poor Castigator, really) in the right circumstances. The ones you'll see the most of are Vanquishers, Reckoners, Repenters, and the Avatar. Repenter, Vanquisher and Avatar can go in anywhere because they're focus efficient. Reckoners are great, but can be rather focus greedy (they want to charge and boost/buy more attacks constantly). Every jack has its place -Vigilants and Dervishes are good with Amon, Crusaders are great in theme lists with jack discounts and/or speed boosts, Templars are good with movement shenanigans/improvements, Redeemers are good with extra buffs beyond the Choir, etc. etc. And it's not as though the Castigator is completely useless - he works all right with Amon and eFeora, but they've got better options.

c) And again, same thing for infantry. Errants and Zealots seem to go with everyone. Temple Flameguard with Feora.

I'd say Zealots can go with anyone that isn't melee-centric. They won't find much use in a Harbinger or eKreoss list. Errants go well with casters that can help their defenses a bit (as 12/16 isn't terribly resilient except vs blast damage). Temple Flame Guard work with anyone. They're pretty useful and very cheap.

[wazatdingder]

If you are in love with the Reckoner and really want it to shine, eSev runs 2 fairly well. Awareness means they can get a bead on the caster from anywhere pretty much. Reznik gets it for a point cheaper in his original tier. He can run 3 in 15 pt MM games.

[nyx]

Welcome to the True Faith Obi!

[Fenryx]

Caster pairings. I really like having a Severius, either incarnation. The guy is just great at pantsing Cryx, and I like that in a caster. I sometimes prefer eSevvy just for his slightly better hordes match up, although I am totally fine with the fact that sometimes, neither of them gets to have a feat for a game. eSevvy's versatility is amazing, but pSevvy's raw power is undeniable, so it's a hard choice.

Running him alongside Harbinger or eFeora is probably my favourite way to go. I find that both of those can bring nice, aggressive jack walls that crack armour easily and can crunch through my worst match up, Trolls. I favour eFeora because we have two dedicated Ravyn/Mage Hunter players in my meta, and a dedicated eLylyth player as well as a few other Legion players kicking around.

Beyond that, Vindictus can be a scenario monster, and he doesn't die. Which is sweet. pKreoss is all around solid, a great support caster with very few BAD match ups, and he also does well in the Cryx beating department.

I honestly find that you should care more about pairing list styles than casters, because you can alter your style a lot more by changing list than changing caster.

As far as jacks go, it really depends on your caster. Reiterating what was said above, Templars, Vanquishers, Reckoners, Avatar, Repenters and Redeemers. eFeora and Harbinger both love the Templar and the Avatar. eFeora loves Vanquishers, and she likes Reckoners, Repenters and Redeemers too. Harbinger at Tier 4 loves Crusaders. Anyone who can have 5 point Crusaders love them, although I admit to never fielding them with eSevvy, because Awareness loves Reckoners, and I love Vanquishers, so I don't like to leave home without them.

pKreoss likes anything with a gun. Redeemers and Reckoners primarily, although Vanquishers and Repenters are solid as well. pSevvy likes literally anything because Eye of Menoth makes EVERYTHING good. I like, again, Vanquishers and Reckoners. I take an arc node with both of them too, Blessing with prime, and a regular Revenger with epic. I love throwing about a2a with pSevvy, and Influence and Reign of Fire with eSevvy. Lots of people will argue in favour of a Redeemer with pSevvy too, because that thing blasting rat 4 pow15 shots with him is pretty sweet. Especially when it easily gets to rat8 with choir, EoM, Reckoner debuff and aiming.

Units. As you assumed, Errants and Zealots and Flameguard. I only really LOVE Errants with Defender's Ward casters. It sets them off, and they become Mat8, rat 7, pow10 weapon masters with pow11 bows with pSevvy. Just complete murder houses. Elsewise, I find they die a little too quickly, and don't claim their points as often. Holy ward mitigates this, but I always feel kinda bad double stacking the spell immunity.

Zealots run great with everyone. What they do is self explanatory. I like them with eFeora because they can clump up and get lit on fire while immortal, and you can hot swap off a unit's worth of fire and use your feat to burn out an entire enemy unit. Like Nyss or Mage Hunters or something else with high def. They can take down heavies, or at least beat them up with their fire bombs, and they are good at suicide bombing enemy high def.

Temple Flameguard are my favourite unit. Speed 6 and reach, def13 and (reliably!) arm17. They can tie up huge swathes of the board, they cause autofire, and terror, they have an awesome minifeat, and combined melee. eFeora, Harbinger and eSevvy all get a unit. Holy Ward loves this unit. They take a charge like a champ at def17, or def 18 with Rhupert, they basically do not get hit. I find them to be that little bit more survivable than errants, even without a caster that buffs their defence, which is nice.

Other than the ones you mentioned, I love Idrians. Holy hell are those guys completely over the top amazing when played well. Vindictus loves them, because speed 8 Idrians is hot. I love them with Kreoss3 because CRA sets off warpath, and ignite makes them hit like trucks (ps14 with prey!) and Holy Ward + Rhupert makes them an annoying Def16 tarpit once they're engaged. pKreoss probably loves their military rifles for pop and drop, but I've never actually run the test. Any time i've put them on the board, they've made it to the melee fight without losing more than one or two dudes, and they just slaughtered their way deep into the board.

[Murkhadh]

Its pSevvy and then everyone else in that faction as far as casters.

[Hashmal]

Hey guys.

I'm looking at Menoth with lustful eyes, after the latest MoM podcast. I'm debating ordering a bunch of stuff and painting it up, while I play Cryx at the next couple of tourneys. With a faction coin on the line, I want to win it.

Hi!

I'll have to check out that podcast and yell at phatasian for making more people want to figure out how my lists work. I need all the help I can get!

Just hoping you guys could answer some questions for me.

a) Caster pairings. I don't have a feel for what each caster's game is. What are the most commonly paired casters in a 50pt, non-Divide and Conquer, standard timed turn environment and why?

Take something that cracks heavies with some decent anti-infantry and take some anti-infantry with a decent chance of cracking heavies. The Protectorate in general plays scenario pretty well.

For me, this is Feora2 and Sevy2, but there are a lot of options. Harby, Sevy1 + 2, Feora 1 + 2, Vindictus, Kreoss1 (and Kreoss3 likely, but needs testing) are all rock-solid choices that will serve you well. Some need more experience with the faction to shine (Sevy2, Feora1, Vindictus), but they're nasty once you get a handle on them.

The others, according to Freud, "have issues." The High Reclaimer has hard counters in lists that can see through clouds, but can be frightfully unbalancing against lists that cannot. Testament has a one-dimensional playstyle that either works great or fails. Reznik is also not very deep and dies easily when you decide to play him forward to take advantage of his crazy hitting power. Kreoss2 is a more boring version of Vindictus that doesn't support his army as well. Thyra is good (I like her more than others), but people are still figuring out what works with her and, like all ninja assassins, she doesn't quite have the P+S to seal the deal and is incredibly squishy. Amon plays forward like a warlock, rarely camps, and dies to anyone with a solid ranged game.

b) Jack preferences. Which jack mix generally goes with which caster and why?

I'll just list 'em. Our 'jacks mesh well with most 'casters, or generally aren't taken at all.

Repenter: Anti-infantry. Do you need a RAT 7 POW 14 spray that requires minimal to no focus investment? Okay, he's 4 points. Go. Works well with everyone, particularly nasty with Sevy1 (but he makes anything work).
Revenger: Arc Node with some accurate charges and a good shield. Few take this, as the Protectorate largely doesn't use Arc Nodes anymore. Sevy1 will take Blessing of Vengeance every time. Has uses with Feora1, High Reclaimer, Reznik, Sevy2, and Kreoss1.
Redeemer: AOE boat. Good with many 'casters, but found often with Kreoss1, Sevy1, and Feora2 (whose bond makes this thing an almost auto-take). Do you need lots of AOEs from 16"? Then take this. I'm a fan of taking one with Sevy2 - Awareness lets you put AOEs wherever you want them. Very fun vs. Cryx.
Dervish: Melee bullet. Found often with Amon, taken if you want a cheap assassin 'jack. Fun to bond w/ Feora2. Likes threat range increases.
Devout: Hardly ever taken. Expensive for Shield Guard and Reach. If you want Shield Guard, he's your option, but underwhelming otherwise.
Vigilant: Cheap, but pillow-fisted. High ARM. Take if you want a cheap objective-grabber that doesn't die easily. Defender's Ward makes him hilarious.
Blessing of Vengeance: Take with Sevy1, Sevy2 if you have the point. Otherwise take a Revenger.

Crusader: Wants a speed buff, is a second-line hitter. Cheap and powerful, but slow. Works with anyone, shines with Harby, Amon, and Feora2.
Vanquisher: Crazy good gun and decent hitting power. Take with anyone who wants 'jack-based infantry clearing and versatility. Pairs well with Reckoner.
Templar: Reach heavy with good ARM and Beat Back. I like him with armies that like melee 'jacks: Harby, Amon, and Feora2. However, he works well with anyone and is like a baby Avatar with Defender's Ward up. Chain weapon gets around shields!
Guardian: Heavy Arc Node that does little else and is expensive. I like him occasionally with Reznik and in Harby's Theme list, and that's about it.
Castigator: Rarely taken, as he's the same points as a Reckoner, doesn't hit as hard, doesn't have the threat range. Kills infantry, but the Vanquisher does as well and they're also the same points. Has a place with Feora2 and occasionally Amon. Looks incredible, though.
Reckoner: Only thing he doesn't do is mop up infantry. Take with anyone; with some, you'll take two. An incredible buy.
Sanctifier: New kid on the block. Doesn't need Warcaster support to shine. Take with anyone who'd like another beatstick but doesn't want to fuel it.
Fire of Salvation: Shines with Kreoss1/2/3, but can serve in other armies. An expensive Crusader that hits very, very hard - and often!
Blood of Martyrs: Shines with Thyra, very average otherwise.
Scourge of Heresy: Kind of just sucks all around, but can drop Colossals like it's his job. A Vanquisher without the gun - Reznik is dumb.
Avatar: Good with everyone and anyone. Shines with Harby. Best 'jack we have, by far, and one of the best characters in the game.

c) And again, same thing for infantry. Errants and Zealots seem to go with everyone. Temple Flameguard with Feora.

Zealots like to bomb, so they're good in lists where they're not expected to charge. Harby likes them less as a result. They're a solid PITA.

Errants want a survival buff: Defender's Ward is the champ, but Inviolable Resolve or Holy Ward also work. Harby can Martyr them, too. They're all-around good, but they don't excel in any one area except driving your opponent bonkers. Granted, that's fun.

Temple Flameguard work well with everyone. They're cheap and eat charges. They shine with a DEF buff.

Daughters go great with anyone, shine with a DEF or MAT buff, and are kind of silly fun with Vindictus. Great for gumming up your opponent's works.

Knights Exemplar have survival issues, but hit hard. Analogous to Bane Thralls, but worse.

Cinerators and Bastions have threat range issues and volume of attack issues, but are durable and hit hard. Plus, they block Tramples.

Vengers have survival issues and are expensive. Expect them with Kreoss3.

Idrians need a DEF buff to not auto-die. They hit hard, but their range is kind of short. I like them, but they're very expensive for what they do.

I want to crack open faces with Reckoners, set stuff on fire and not put up with other faction's BS. lol.

You want Sevy2, then. I always take 2x Reckoners, crit Fire on their guns, and use Fear of God, Influence, and Feat to basically make my opponent's army destroy itself. Wicked fun.

Its pSevvy and then everyone else in that faction as far as casters.

Disagree entirely.

[Tarma]

The Castigator, and Scourge of Heresy, is much better, than players would give them credit for. The problem with Scourge, is he not has SPD7, and he is very glad for focus, and that is a problem, with all our low focus casters. The problem with the Castigator, is he has not a long reach spay, build in his hands, and that players like to look themself blind, on the Reckoner. Another thing players like to forget is, the Castigator is our best jack, if you like to throw things, because he is the one of two jacks, we have, with two open fist, and the Vigilant is a light.

@Hashmal, when do you last throw anything with a Reckoner? And Scourge, I think is a new jack, not a Vanquisher with a alteration.

Tarma

[Hashmal]

Better question: when was the last time I needed to? If I want to throw things, I play my Hordes army. Warmachine, in general, doesn't do the Power Attacks with near the efficiency of Hordes. If it had Chain Attack: Grab 'n Smash, then we'd be talking. It doesn't, so we're not.

Making a point via hyperbole rarely works. The problem with Scourge is that he's a 9-point Crusader with a *very* situational Imprint. Until the release of Colossals, he was overkill, if he ever made it to his target. Now he actually has a legitimate role as a Colossal-killer, which I referenced above. Were his SPD 5 instead of 4, he'd see much more play.

We are dealing with a game that has finite and constricting maximums on the pieces you can take. Given those limitations, it's important to take the best options we have given the tasks we need them to accomplish.

[Hashmal]

*Finicky double post

[Silverstar843]

With the damage output of Protectorate and the low speeds with few ways to increase (not to mention the fact that only one jack is capable), Protectorate doesn't do a lot of throws. The one time I found it useful to throw something was when a pNemo player caught all of my jacks with a Voltaic snare, so I threw him away with a Castigator at something he thought was safe.

[darisus]

With the damage output of Protectorate and the low speeds with few ways to increase (not to mention the fact that only one jack is capable), Protectorate doesn't do a lot of throws. The one time I found it useful to throw something was when a pNemo player caught all of my jacks with a Voltaic snare, so I threw him away with a Castigator at something he thought was safe.

All that will change once Kreoss3 really hits the market... Warpath is so amazing!

[Silverstar843]

Potentially true. I was thinking of running him similar to his current incarnation, however. 2 Heavies at most, plus lots of exemplar and Infantry., maybe a light or 2 to help trigger warpath.

[Tarma]

@Hashmal, it was not a question about need, you was saying: "Only thing he doesn't do is mop up infantry", I just point out, there is another thing, he don't do.

Tarma